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| gmann | o/ | 14:22 |
|---|---|---|
| yoctozepto | o/ | 14:22 |
| yoctozepto | so, how are we approaching the move? I believe we've seen enough of the drama | 14:41 |
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| fungi | the opendev sysadmins have asked for feedback from openstack's leadership on whether we should enact our long-standing evacuation plan to start connecting our service bots to oftc instead of freenode | 14:48 |
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| yoctozepto | fungi: yup, that's also why I brought it up on this channel right on Monday ;-) | 14:53 |
| yoctozepto | on that note | 14:54 |
| yoctozepto | I think I am subscribed to all mls you posted that message | 14:54 |
| yoctozepto | were there any direct replies to you? | 14:54 |
| yoctozepto | I saw only some movement on zuul | 14:54 |
| yoctozepto | iirc | 14:54 |
| gmann | I thought we decided to hold it for now and monitor the situation more ? | 14:54 |
| fungi | there was a reply on the kata-dev ml | 14:59 |
| yoctozepto | ah, that means I am missing that one subscription | 15:05 |
| yoctozepto | checking it out | 15:05 |
| yoctozepto | gmann: yeah, but it only seems to be getting worse; should we wait till it starts to get ugly directly in the openstack garden? | 15:05 |
| gmann | anything change from last week? | 15:12 |
| yoctozepto | gmann: yeah, for example this funny story: https://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_abuse ;-) | 15:13 |
| yoctozepto | and this stuff: https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/commits/2037126831a84c57f978268f090fc663cf43ed7a#diff-0e382b024f696a3b7a0ff3bce24ae3166cc6f383d059c7cc61e0a3ccdeed522c | 15:14 |
| yoctozepto | TheJulia wrote about it on the ml | 15:14 |
| yoctozepto | I'm just sharing further | 15:14 |
| TheJulia | I didn't want to paste them in irc, because at this point I have zero trust for freenode | 15:14 |
| yoctozepto | yeah, I feel you | 15:15 |
| TheJulia | And the way the policy is worded now, basically every channel in our community could be taken over | 15:15 |
| TheJulia | as-is *without* us moving. | 15:15 |
| yoctozepto | yeah, and I believe our redirect topics idea is at a loss now ;p | 15:16 |
| TheJulia | The policy seems written to hold projects hostage over recognition of the channel names. | 15:16 |
| TheJulia | At least, that is my take, others may interpret it differently | 15:17 |
| TheJulia | Erasing the very last line of the policy also makes my blood boil as I'm sure it does for every trans and non-binary community member that we have. | 15:18 |
| yoctozepto | yup, I scratched my head hard as I don't see a point in taking down this particular one except when one is either very naive or wants to actually serve some invectives lol | 15:19 |
| yoctozepto | I mean, the folk is pretty inclined to dominate the irc world | 15:20 |
| clarkb | its an odd change for them because the rest of the document continues to indicate they are a UK entity that follows UK laws. UK laws ban all manner of hate speech. Feels like this is their way of saying we'll overlook violations even if still technically against our rules due to technical reasons | 15:20 |
| yoctozepto | but that does not align with letting people be offensive | 15:20 |
| dansmith | the rest of the section below the fold seems to provide plenty of coverage for that stuff, IMHO | 15:22 |
| dansmith | I dunno why they re-wrote that section specifically, but if you haven't already made up your mind about it, you could assume that it's because of all the libera spam and hassling people to move, | 15:23 |
| dansmith | claiming channels have already moved, which haven't, etc | 15:23 |
| yoctozepto | well, seemingly on libera spambots claim that channels are still on freenode even if they moved | 15:25 |
| yoctozepto | so it's one big joke | 15:25 |
| dansmith | right, spamming both ways it seems | 15:25 |
| gmann | yeah https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/blob/main/content/pages/policies.md#off-topic-use | 15:25 |
| yoctozepto | yeah, good catch; so presumably that was just a part of cleanup not to repeat oneself | 15:27 |
| yoctozepto | still, it does not really make me feel better about new freenode ;p | 15:27 |
| dansmith | to me, this indicates continuity of maintainership at least.. last week several people claimed that freenode was now completely without staff to maintain anything, which this seems to contraindicate :) | 15:28 |
| yoctozepto | yup, that is true | 15:28 |
| yoctozepto | the new staff is definitely there | 15:28 |
| yoctozepto | I wonder if it's new staff that attacks libera | 15:29 |
| yoctozepto | I would really vote on some third parties loving chaos | 15:29 |
| yoctozepto | as the situation is quite ridiculous | 15:29 |
| TheJulia | yoctozepto: ++ | 15:30 |
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| JayF | I mean, one network (libera) has a DoS attack on staff just through more usage. The other (freenode) just lost the majority of it's experienced staff. If that's not catnip for IRC trolls, IDK what is. | 15:31 |
| TheJulia | I kind of feel like it is entirely just too much drama. Look at all the wasted thoughts and energy. The angst of the unknown driving us. We shouldn't continue to expose ourselves to such a situation. | 15:31 |
| TheJulia | JayF: Add in bad blood between parties, and it may go on for a very long time. | 15:32 |
| JayF | Right now; OpenStack is creating its own drama by not being decisive about making an urgent move :| | 15:32 |
| TheJulia | JayF: absolutely agree. | 15:32 |
| TheJulia | I was hoping ironic would basically have enough of a quorum this morning for us to discuss alternative platforms that maybe were not IRC. | 15:32 |
| TheJulia | but alas, holidays. | 15:32 |
| dansmith | choosing to wait for drama to settle down is ... creating drama? :) | 15:33 |
| JayF | The lack of making a decision is forcing | 15:33 |
| JayF | ** OpenStack contributors to continue to participate in a network they no longer trust. | 15:33 |
| JayF | I don't care about freenode/libera drama if I can just not connect to freenode anymore because I am not required to for work. | 15:34 |
| TheJulia | JayF: ++ | 15:34 |
| TheJulia | If the community leadership chooses not to make a whole project decision, then individual projects will make their own decisions. | 15:35 |
| JayF | I have already said, personally (and I mean it) that this is the last week I'm going to be connected to Freenode. | 15:35 |
| TheJulia | JayF: Are you on efnet, oftc, or gimpnet by chance? | 15:36 |
| JayF | no, yes, yes | 15:36 |
| TheJulia | \o/ | 15:36 |
| dansmith | TheJulia: if the community leadership decides to stay, will you accept that? or does it only work if we make the decision you want? Honest question... | 15:36 |
| * TheJulia now knows where to find JayF after this week. | 15:36 | |
| clarkb | isn't efnet already worse than freenode? | 15:36 |
| fungi | and let's not even mention undernet ;) | 15:37 |
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| TheJulia | dansmith: at this point, it would come down to a project team vote. And I have a very strong feeling the project team is for departing freenode. | 15:37 |
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| JayF | dansmith: I'm gone regardless of community decision. Part of why I push to participate in, and make time to, contribute to OpenStack upstream is because I think it's doing a good thing for the world. Being connected on Freenode, now, is counter to those values. | 15:37 |
| dansmith | TheJulia: so with people pulling towards different networks and different technologies, fracture is pretty much inevitable then yeah? | 15:37 |
| dansmith | JayF: good to know, thanks | 15:37 |
| gmann | community leadership is not saying we will use freenode forever, its 'let's wait to take any final decision at least during this dramatic time which has both side of it' | 15:38 |
| JayF | I think fracture is the default choice for as long as a choice isn't made. | 15:38 |
| TheJulia | dansmith: possibly. Only more certain each day the TC does not reach a consensus. The bottom line also is many are connected to multiple networks. Example JayF, and I. Maybe because we're just old IRC users who have been on some of these networks for ages. | 15:39 |
| dansmith | the consensus thus far has been to wait and see.. Unless you want us to commit to something without sufficient data, I'm not really sure how else we can do anything other than make a decision to leave just for the purposes of signaling | 15:40 |
| dansmith | and I think it's clear that has a large cost | 15:40 |
| gmann | yes | 15:40 |
| TheJulia | dansmith: I'd prefer we remove ourselves from the toxic situation so we don't become toxic. | 15:41 |
| yoctozepto | I see it like this: the freenode cesspit has overflown (again) and it's the right time to skip the drama and go OFTC as we are mostly prepared for and dreamed of doing before | 15:42 |
| JayF | Every day I use freenode since it's been stolen; I am contributing to the toxicity. That's not tenable. And I'm not the only contributor who feels that way, obviously. Maybe one of the only ones free enough to be able to leave freenode even if Ironic doesn't :( | 15:42 |
| yoctozepto | what are we *really* waiting for? | 15:43 |
| TheJulia | yoctozepto: maybe not dreamed. I at least didn't hope for change, but sometimes change is necessary. | 15:43 |
| TheJulia | yoctozepto: TC to reach consensus, which I'm convinced at this point won't happen. | 15:43 |
| JayF | The TC won't even take up the agenda item on their own unless someone else wants to argue it at the next meeting. | 15:43 |
| yoctozepto | TheJulia: with "we" I really meant the TC so it was implicit ;d | 15:43 |
| TheJulia | which means, this is an academic argument at best, and the community will fracture. | 15:43 |
| TheJulia | yoctozepto: fair :) | 15:44 |
| yoctozepto | maybe let's rephrase the question | 15:45 |
| yoctozepto | does anyone disagree OpenStack would be better off on OFTC? | 15:45 |
| dansmith | it's not the being here or there that is the primary concern, it's the move | 15:46 |
| TheJulia | dansmith: how so? | 15:46 |
| yoctozepto | but we know how to move | 15:46 |
| dansmith | so if you rephrase the question as "if we had started on OFTC in 2010, would that have been better" then .. that's legit :) | 15:46 |
| yoctozepto | fungi is almost ready to press the button | 15:46 |
| TheJulia | yoctozepto: I think the policy changes complicate things. | 15:46 |
| tosky | dansmith: when you see "the consensus", is it the consensus of the TC? Because I think the community disagrees | 15:46 |
| JayF | I've had nobody surface a list of things we have to do to move, or ask for help, or publish any concerns beyond "how many non-active contributors will wake up tomorrow in an empty IRC channel" | 15:46 |
| clarkb | JayF: fungi has posted about it | 15:46 |
| dansmith | tosky: yes, I meant the TC, and | 15:47 |
| JayF | clarkb: ah, I've been following the maillist and haven't seen anything like that come across. I don't have time to read scrolback in all openstack channels :| | 15:47 |
| dansmith | tosky: unless there are a ton of people so angry that they can't even reply to the ML thread, I think you're overstating the vast consensus about moving | 15:47 |
| gmann | there are lot more work in term of advertising and each project contributors guides or so | 15:47 |
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| clarkb | JayF: its on all the mailinglists | 15:47 |
| yoctozepto | TheJulia: what policy changes do you mean? | 15:47 |
| TheJulia | tosky: of course, the TC is also supposed to represent their community. But at the same time they don't know if the community members don't make their voices heard. | 15:47 |
| clarkb | JayF: not on IRC | 15:47 |
| tosky | dansmith: then there is not even consensus about staying either | 15:47 |
| tosky | dansmith: do we want to run a condercet vote? | 15:48 |
| tosky | that's how debian would solve it | 15:48 |
| tosky | (or non-solve it) | 15:48 |
| dansmith | tosky: documented, definitely not, it's just the default :) | 15:48 |
| clarkb | JayF: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2021-May/022654.html from openstack-discuss which poinst to the main thread on service-discuss@lists.opendev.org | 15:48 |
| dansmith | tosky: sure, we could, and set some minimum bar for participation so we know it's a reasonable sample | 15:49 |
| yoctozepto | ah, this is the time when I wish IRC supported threads because I got lost in who answers whom | 15:49 |
| tosky | about that, I understand there are other stakeholders in the community, but that also mean I should subscribe to another list just to discuss this topic | 15:49 |
| TheJulia | yoctozepto: the freenode policy changes linked earlier | 15:49 |
| gmann | btw how many projects are strongly disagree with TC's current decision | 15:49 |
| JayF | clarkb: interesting, the linked thread doesn't any any specific todos or asks for help. That's what I was looking for. Folks saying moving is hard there are some of us who care enough to try and help fix it :) | 15:49 |
| clarkb | JayF: yes it links to a thread that does becauwe we're trying to keep all the discuss on one thread | 15:49 |
| JayF | I mean even the service-discuss thread is anemic | 15:49 |
| clarkb | and i can't type this early in the morning | 15:50 |
| JayF | unless I'm missing something? | 15:50 |
| yoctozepto | TheJulia: ah, yes, I mentioned that already; but we can advertise that externally and reach out to people here best-effort | 15:50 |
| tosky | I just hope this is not the last big FLOSS community which is going to decide | 15:50 |
| yoctozepto | TheJulia: I bet irc lurkers read our mailing lists | 15:50 |
| TheJulia | yoctozepto: some do :) Some don't. Some of us will continue to straddle for a little while until we can fully disconnect | 15:50 |
| tosky | KDE is discussing and it's blocked on the (at the moment) missing matrix bridge on libera, but I kind feel what the outcome will be | 15:51 |
| clarkb | JayF: I disagree. It says we believe oftc to be a better option (have for years, but also sidesteps all the current drama), we have parked our channels there to erserve names, we need to update bots to switch and people may lose their nicks | 15:51 |
| yoctozepto | TheJulia: yeah, I will squat (oh no, I am against the new policies!) around for a bit as well | 15:51 |
| clarkb | JayF: and it specifically asks for your feedback if you feel that is insufficient that would be a great place to voice that concern | 15:51 |
| yoctozepto | are we worried that there is no "move champion" perhaps? | 15:52 |
| TheJulia | gmann: I can tell you every active leader in the ironic community has been voicing a desire to depart freenode given the whole situation. The fact we all seem to agree on something is freaky in itself as we almost *never* agree with that level of uniformity. | 15:52 |
| JayF | clarkb: I'm honestly confused right now. I was trying to find a place where I could technically contribute, if needed, to help prepare for a potential move. Did I miss something in those emails that enumerated any of that? | 15:52 |
| yoctozepto | we on kolla also receive negative feedback from the community about us staying on freenode | 15:52 |
| yoctozepto | though I believe it's not the most representative sample as we target sysops which would prefer to use something other than irc in the first place | 15:53 |
| gmann | ack, I am adding Ironic, Kola in that list. | 15:53 |
| clarkb | JayF: yes, 4th paragraph details the issues with moving and 5th says "this will entail a bit of development effort in order to accommodate the differences mentioned above." | 15:53 |
| yoctozepto | but ignore I even mentioned that non-irc, just don't start the matrix discussions, let's do that later... | 15:53 |
| gmann | also adding it in weekly meeting agenda to -check the current decision of 'let's wait' | 15:54 |
| clarkb | JayF: if you are interested in helping with that work certainly responding to the thread indicating that would be appropriate? | 15:54 |
| yoctozepto | gmann: did you start any etherpad? | 15:54 |
| JayF | I don't generally participate on service-discuss, and don't want to commit to some unknown set of work :) | 15:54 |
| gmann | yoctozepto: composing. | 15:55 |
| yoctozepto | JayF: can you commit to planning what is needed? | 15:55 |
| yoctozepto | gmann: ack; we could use it to plan the move as it's 99% we are going to do it | 15:55 |
| JayF | yoctozepto: bluntly, most of my time spent on openstack is beg/borrow/stolen from specific other priorities, so I am not OK to committing to unknown quantities/quality of work | 15:55 |
| gmann | yoctozepto: that ways, we can get the each projects wise feedback also if community think TC is not making right decision for them and accordingly we can discuss in TC further | 15:57 |
| TheJulia | I suspect or perhaps fear that it is viewed as change a config file, open other window and done by some. Yet by others it involves everything down to doc changes, communication plans, emails, outreach, etc. | 15:57 |
| dansmith | we could also just decide that projects that really don't want to be on freenode are free to go to OFTC where we've reserved the channels | 15:57 |
| dansmith | I assume that we can straddle both networks, once the OFTC-having work is done to the bots or whatever | 15:58 |
| gmann | dansmith: yeah | 15:58 |
| clarkb | I think opendev is trying to avoid needing to support multiple networks | 15:58 |
| clarkb | a decision along those lines may involve opendev only supporting one of those networks. fungi has probably thought about this more than I thave though | 15:58 |
| TheJulia | dansmith: we've always been "free to go", the point is we don't want to fracture the community which is why you've got non-tc members in here calling for change. | 15:59 |
| gmann | clarkb: but if projects (infra) openstack or kata have different preference then ? | 15:59 |
| dansmith | clarkb: yeah, so we could also say "and you may not have infra support if you do but at least the channel is registered" | 15:59 |
| dansmith | TheJulia: I understand that | 15:59 |
| clarkb | ya I expect it will be along those lines. basically you get the bots and help over in $location. If you go elsewhere here are some things to consider like registration | 16:00 |
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| gmann | that is we have for some cases also like we have few projects wechat channel or so | 16:00 |
| * clarkb needs to pop out now | 16:00 | |
| gmann | along with infra supported IRC | 16:00 |
| TheJulia | gmann: but there is only so much that can be done in those cases, and that is already some fragmentation I guess. | 16:01 |
| gmann | yeah, i am saying 'non infra supported tooling ' are already being used so it would not be very new things | 16:02 |
| TheJulia | ahh yeah | 16:02 |
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| gmann | let me compose the etherpad for more projects feedback and we will be happy to change the TC decision ('let's wait') if that is what community want. | 16:04 |
| TheJulia | That sounds like a plan. | 16:06 |
| fungi | tosky: debian already "solved it" by moving from freenode to oftc in 2006, yeah https://www.debian.org/News/2006/20060604 | 16:10 |
| fungi | JayF: i expect the service-discuss thread is "anemic" for now because i only started it on friday, and the projects we've asked to get feedback from are trying to determine what feedback to provide (cf thread on zuul-discuss ml, ongoing openstack tc discussion in here and threads on openstack-discuss, et cetera) | 16:15 |
| fungi | also that thread is specifically about moving the irc bots managed as part of the opendev collaboratory, and our desire to connect them to whichever network seems to wind up with the majority of our communities on it | 16:16 |
| JayF | fungi: I was mainly just looking for the answer to the question "is there something more constructive than chatting in IRC that I could do to help a move happen?" | 16:16 |
| JayF | I think the answer is no? | 16:16 |
| tosky | fungi: yeah, but my comment was about the general way of solving problems in debian (by GRs) | 16:17 |
| fungi | JayF: sure, there absolutely is, for example we need to work out how to rejigger https://opendev.org/openstack/project-config/src/branch/master/tools/check_irc_access.py and https://opendev.org/opendev/system-config/src/branch/master/docker/accessbot/accessbot.py so that they work with oftc, but i'm struggling to wrap my head around the irc module's state machine | 16:20 |
| JayF | ack; I'll take a look at it if I get a chance. Feel free to ping me if you want a review if you get there first :D | 16:20 |
| fungi | i didn't want to get into the technical weeds in that thread, but am happy to discuss an exact to do list for readying our services (the others are likely pretty much ready to go) | 16:20 |
| fungi | tosky: actually there was no gr to decide the debian project's move to oftc: https://www.debian.org/vote/ | 16:24 |
| tosky | fungi: I know, but generally complex issues are handled through GRs | 16:25 |
| fungi | it has less to do with complexity and more to do with contention, but yeah i understand what you're trying to say | 16:25 |
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| fungi | following discussion on #python-dev, it seems freebsd also hasn't decided what to do yet: https://wiki.freebsd.org/IRC/ | 16:47 |
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| dansmith | the majority of the projects in that list that have already moved have gone to libera, which I think seems to have the least support from TC members as a target, at least according to my gut | 17:18 |
| yoctozepto | fungi: but they registered on libera already | 17:22 |
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| fungi | yoctozepto: sure, much like opendev has registered channels on oftc already | 17:23 |
| yoctozepto | fungi: ack, I thought you were wondering whether it's more likely they choose libera or oftc ;d | 17:24 |
| fungi | no, i meant just what i said, freebsd hasn't decided what to do yet | 17:25 |
| yoctozepto | yeah, they did not | 17:27 |
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| clarkb | fungi: I too can take a look at the access stuff if you point me at what is causing you trouble | 17:49 |
| clarkb | fungi: off the top of my head the first thing may be to make sasl optional in our bots ( I think we force it on now?)) | 17:50 |
| fungi | clarkb: it's just generally the service bots and flags being different, and me having to stumble through the state machine. i'm most of the way to having check_irc_access.py working now | 17:54 |
| fungi | but have a ton of debug code to clean back out | 17:54 |
| clarkb | fungi: ok, ping me if I can help (reviews or debugging etc) | 17:55 |
| fungi | i should have something up for that first script a little later today | 17:55 |
| fungi | but we can discuss in #opendev | 17:56 |
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| JayF | In case it hasn't been posted here, https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/files freenode updated their AUP recently to allow non-project members to take over former/moved project channels, and removed the language that banned hate speech on the network. Material changes are happening :| | 22:21 |
| fungi | it was included in a recent post on one of the relevant openstack-discuss ml threads, yeah, and got talked about some in here around 15:14 utc today | 22:31 |
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| gmann | yeah that is what we discussed in morning. off-topics are not removed but added with extra line/reworded. if you scroll down, you can see the text added below comments | 23:22 |
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