| openstackgerrit | Ghanshyam proposed openstack/governance master: Add community infra ELK service help in 2021 investment opportunity https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/792049 | 00:20 |
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| mnaser | tc-members: we should probably figure out and decide what to do about the whole freenode thing | 13:04 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: Yeah. Do we know that it is a threat or are we just talking about having a backup plan ahead of time? | 13:04 |
| mnaser | I don’t know, at this point I think there’s probably a lot of reasonable concern but potentially a lot of FUD as well surely | 13:05 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah. That was my interpretation as well. | 13:06 |
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| yoctozepto | yikes, have you read what frickler linked to in #opendev? ~> https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491 | 13:17 |
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| jungleboyj | Does seem that it is a mess over there. | 13:21 |
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| fungi | right, i still haven't seen an account of the other side of the dispute | 13:31 |
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| mnaser | yes, which is why i think we should wait a bit first and see what happens | 13:45 |
| mnaser | i dont think it's just going to all fall over =) | 13:45 |
| dansmith | yeah, I think pulling the plug too early is a bad idea | 13:46 |
| dansmith | this is a perennial scare with freenode | 13:46 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah, patience seems to be good but being prepared to move quickly if necessary. | 13:47 |
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| yoctozepto | ++ | 14:02 |
| spotz | RDO has an account on matrix now. Just in casee | 14:03 |
| yoctozepto | well, I was thinking about oftc as the most direct replacement | 14:03 |
| yoctozepto | it would also bring us closer to the debian community | 14:04 |
| zaneb | we've been talking about wanting to migrate away from IRC for *years*, and the main reason we haven't is that it will leave a bunch of people who are not closely engaged behind. there is no point leaving all those people behind and then just going to OFTC so we can do it again | 14:08 |
| tosky | OFTC is already bridged to matrix (just like freenode, and I guess libera.chat will do too) | 14:09 |
| yoctozepto | any reasons to choose libera.chat over oftc? | 14:11 |
| dansmith | yoctozepto: we already have the channel set reserved on OFTC, AIUI | 14:13 |
| dansmith | I didn't know 'we' wanted to move away from IRC | 14:13 |
| dansmith | I guess I'm not in that 'we' :) | 14:13 |
| yoctozepto | fwiw, libera.chat is not the best marketing on google for now, it thinks I want to find italian girls for chat ;d | 14:14 |
| yoctozepto | (and they lack clothes) | 14:14 |
| dansmith | *gasp* | 14:14 |
| spotz | Ok thhat's an automatic no thhen | 14:14 |
| tosky | yep, "libera" is the female form "libero", "free" | 14:15 |
| yoctozepto | dansmith: yeah, I did not realise the "move away from irc" was happening at any pace | 14:15 |
| yoctozepto | I would not oppose it for sure | 14:15 |
| fungi | zaneb: anyone who wants to leave irc can at any time. i don't personally care to leave irc, so i'll gladly stick around | 14:15 |
| yoctozepto | but heard strong arguments against it | 14:15 |
| dansmith | I'm definitely opposed | 14:16 |
| spotz | I think having a back up plan with something that connects to IRC is a good plan. If we don't reseerve names sooner vs lateer we'll be in trrouble though | 14:17 |
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| dansmith | already done, on OFTC | 14:17 |
| yoctozepto | corvus seems to have reserved a few names on oftc | 14:17 |
| yoctozepto | yeah, but many missing imho | 14:17 |
| yoctozepto | though at least the main ones are there already | 14:18 |
| fungi | we can add more. i've been squatting in some of the main ones for years | 14:18 |
| yoctozepto | and I guess oftc staff would help us gain control | 14:18 |
| yoctozepto | of any others | 14:18 |
| fungi | which has also been useful because people pop into those channels from time to time looking for us on oftc instead of freenode | 14:18 |
| TheJulia | putting on my former IRC operator hat on, the linked message reads as the deathknell and politics of irc network operations are often one sided with hostility because people perceive value over a volunteer effort. We are unlikely to hear the other side of things. | 14:19 |
| TheJulia | imho, we can wait for the other side of it, but we're unlikely to ever actually *hear* it | 14:19 |
| yoctozepto | I wonder what side that would be as the "network owner" seems to be "responding", no? | 14:21 |
| TheJulia | IRC networks are generally volunteer confederations | 14:21 |
| TheJulia | so it is all PoV | 14:22 |
| TheJulia | I joked back in the days of XWorld that the owner was only who controlled the services. Seems kind of true to this day. | 14:23 |
| TheJulia | at least "network owner" | 14:23 |
| zaneb | fungi: I get it (I have to use Slack now and I hate it), but it's difficult to read http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/04/26/synchronous-text/ and come away with the impression that IRC is still fit for purpose (particularly with the lack of proper authentication) | 14:24 |
| yoctozepto | https://twitter.com/liberachat | 14:32 |
| yoctozepto | libera chat struggling with users inpour | 14:33 |
| dansmith | yeah, to fungi's point.. jumping a huge org (that has to actually get work done) over to a fledgling network is not a good plan :) | 14:34 |
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| yoctozepto | yeah, I was about to suggest that but then went to twitter to check if I was right already ;-) | 14:37 |
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| yoctozepto | anyhow, that Andrew figure seems to be linked to https://www.irc.com/ | 14:37 |
| yoctozepto | stage 3 is launching new irc network | 14:37 |
| yoctozepto | so dooming freenode and launching a new one sounds oddly reasonable | 14:38 |
| yoctozepto | also: https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further | 14:38 |
| yoctozepto | "IRC Gaming" | 14:39 |
| dtantsur | I think Libera will be unstable for a while more. E.g. now it refuses to accept a password I set about an hour ago. | 14:46 |
| tosky | eheh, they just tweeted they are stable | 14:48 |
| yoctozepto | their twitter got a shadowban for a "suspicious activity" | 14:52 |
| dansmith | lol, going super well | 14:52 |
| yoctozepto | I miss the point of libera chat when we have at least oftc already here | 14:52 |
| dansmith | yoctozepto: like many areas of life, anywhere you have three humans, you must have at least four clubs | 14:53 |
| yoctozepto | that true | 14:53 |
| gmann | but one thing for sure, if we move to oftc/libera/anyother we definitely need/take enough time to migrate. | 14:55 |
| yoctozepto | unfortunately, yes | 14:56 |
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| fungi | probably the biggest differentiator for oftc is that it's governed by a board with the backing of a nonprofit foundation (spi, same nonprofit which handles the debian community) | 15:18 |
| yoctozepto | tldr; oftc feels right | 15:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Dan Smith proposed openstack/governance master: Replace ATC terminology with AC https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/790092 | 16:33 |
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| dmsimard | re: freenode drama: as a data point CentOS has decided to move to libera.chat and Fedora is strongly considering it. We just had an Ansible community meeting and have largely narrowed down options to either oftc or libera but have decided to delay a decision until next week to see how it all plays out. | 19:28 |
| fungi | i'm in favor of waiting for a bit. if it does just suddenly get turned off or become otherwise completely unusable in the next few days, we can complete coordinating alternatives via mailing lists anyway | 19:32 |
| fungi | where "waiting" is actually spending time getting options lined up, but yeah | 19:33 |
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| dansmith | have we seen any threats to "just turn it off"? because I can't imagine the silent party owner thinking that is in their best interest | 19:41 |
| dansmith | unless it suffers an attack or something, just going away overnight seems unlikely to me | 19:41 |
| fungi | yep, agreed | 19:41 |
| fungi | i was just saying even the worst case isn't an insurmountable obstacle | 19:42 |
| dansmith | right, I'm just supporting that by saying even the worst case scenario seems unlikely and as of yet, not even threatened | 19:42 |
| fungi | agreed | 19:44 |
| JayF | The worst case scenario is OpenStack contributors' information being leaked to a third party. DMs. Emails from nick registrations. | 19:47 |
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| gmann | but email and nicks are anyways public already via gerrit/logs etc | 19:55 |
| clarkb | yes, probably the biggest concern is DMs | 19:56 |
| clarkb | and you might consider OTR if very concerned regarldess of what freenode does | 19:57 |
| JayF | I'm not personally concerned about DMs, but I do think we should treat this more like a hostile takeover in need of urgent remediation instead of wait-and-see. | 19:57 |
| clarkb | what is the effect on communications in say a channel like this if we assume that worst case? | 20:00 |
| clarkb | I don't think it is significant? They could pretent to be me? they arleady could? | 20:00 |
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| clarkb | I think that is why people are ok with a wait and see so that we don't make a quick decision that itself causes mroe problems in the future | 20:01 |
| clarkb | wait doesn't have to be months or even weeks necessarily | 20:01 |
| clarkb | even the alpine who had one of their contributors on freenode staff seems to have taken a wait and see appraoch? though they seemed privvy to a lot more a lot earlier so may have made decisions by now | 20:02 |
| clarkb | https://lists.alpinelinux.org/~alpine/devel/%3C46923df-1dad-bf45-50e0-a15d71ba0ec%40dereferenced.org%3E ya seems they started discussing it a week ago and then decided today to use oftc | 20:04 |
| clarkb | also might be worth reminding people that irc isn't strictly required. sdague dropped off irc almost entirely for a while iirc. Granted certain things would become difficult (meetings, but we do run a jitsi meet and there are other alternatives) | 20:09 |
| JayF | Saying IRC is not strictly required I think is very much a project-to-project thing. If I did not use IRC, I would become a much less effective Ironic contributor. | 20:12 |
| clarkb | ya thats fair | 20:13 |
| clarkb | but we can all continue to collaborate via gerrit and mailing lists at least temporarily | 20:13 |
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| JayF | I'll probably be personally extracting myself from Freenode IRC within a week, whether OpenStack has moved or not. I do not know what the worst case is for the hostile takeover, and would rather not find out. I also think showing solidarity with the staff who resigned is important. | 20:15 |
| clarkb | I don't think anyone is disagreeing, but others are measuring the cost of making a hasty decision and getting it wrong against that | 20:16 |
| clarkb | meanwhile prep work for any potential move can happen without actually moving | 20:16 |
| clarkb | which was fungis point earlier | 20:16 |
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