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| gmann | mnaser: sure. | 00:53 |
|---|---|---|
| mnaser | gmann: let me also try to reach out to the foundation if Horace, their Chinese staff member is able to maybe coordinate a bit more | 00:55 |
| gmann | mnaser: ok, that will be great too | 00:56 |
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| jroll | good morning | 11:20 |
| jroll | tc-members: please vote on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/645601/ (opendev project namespace thing) if you haven't yet. we've got two weeks until that migration happens, and I want to make sure this lands in time for fungi and/or myself to script it up. | 11:21 |
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| asettle | Morning o/ | 13:56 |
| asettle | Will do, jroll :) | 13:57 |
| jroll | thanks! | 14:05 |
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| asettle | Turns out I already voted, go past Alex | 14:21 |
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| smcginnis | mugsie: Thanks for sending that. ;) | 15:20 |
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| mugsie | Heh, I was worried it was a little strong, but I think it needed to be highlighted | 15:45 |
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| fungi | yes, much appreciated | 16:29 |
| fungi | very glad we performed our entire feedback gathering and reporting process 100% in public, as a counterpoint | 16:30 |
| fungi | i was hoping that would help serve as an example | 16:30 |
| mugsie | if other tc-members agree and want to back me up, that would be appreciated - instead of me flapping in the wind on my own :) | 16:34 |
| mugsie | fungi: damn, I should have used that as an example | 16:35 |
| asettle | mugsie, I'm all about flapping | 16:35 |
| asettle | But I will read when I have a mo :) | 16:35 |
| mugsie | asettle: thanks :) | 16:35 |
| zaneb | mugsie: I think "personnel" refers to foundation staff members only | 16:38 |
| fungi | in a similar vein, the slide deck the zuul leadership will be presenting at the board meeting was also assembled in public (via code review) and is published at https://zuul-ci.org/confirmation/ | 16:38 |
| fungi | (that deck is continuously deployed by zuul to the site too, because, you know, it can so do that) | 16:39 |
| fungi | typo corrections/fixes to the content in the openstack-infra/zuul-website repo is welcome | 16:41 |
| mugsie | zaneb: yeah, it could be interpreted that way I suppose. I am kind of wondering what sort of personel issue a project could have that would need to be behind the doors, that wouldn't have been dealt with by the CoC, which falls to jbryce | 16:42 |
| mugsie | fungi: ++ | 16:42 |
| zaneb | mugsie: it means they can go into executive session to discuss people's salaries/hiring/firing, essentially | 16:43 |
| fungi | granted, salaries are all disclosed publicly anyway because of the requirements for being a nonprofit registered in the usa | 16:44 |
| fungi | though that reporting lags by a year or so since it's performed annually for the previous calendar year | 16:45 |
| mugsie | yeah, but it doesn't preclude the other use | 16:45 |
| mugsie | and I still want a real example why it is needed - if it really comes down to directors will not talk freely about a project in open session, we have a problem (that was a suggested use in the board meeting) | 16:46 |
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| fungi | it was something along the lines of "people (meaning board members in this case) are often willing to say different things in private off the record than they will in public" | 16:49 |
| fungi | though it was also suggested that some board members may not be authorized to make public statements about certain topics due to trade regulations, or something like that | 16:50 |
| fungi | (i would argue in that case that they shouldn't make those same statements in private to the rest of the board either) | 16:51 |
| mugsie | yeah - disclosure to a board is still a disclosure | 16:53 |
| smcginnis | The big concern raised in favor of having this was for things like if a company was in the process of a legal dispute or something with another involved in a potential new project where that board member would have a legal reason for not being able to have a public conversation about things. | 16:55 |
| smcginnis | That seems kind of wishy washy to me though. | 16:55 |
| mugsie | and, my very uncharitable opinion, if they are not willing to discharge their responsibilities to the foundation by saying something that is important just because they are in open session, they should not put themselves in a position that may require it, and not be on the board | 16:55 |
| smcginnis | Better to abstain from voting then. Or privately share with another board member if there is a legitimate issue to raise. | 16:55 |
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| mugsie | smcginnis: yeah, there is ways to deal with that, but recusing yourself at the beginning (which is also a good thing for open governance) | 16:56 |
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| mugsie | by* | 16:56 |
| mugsie | I have been on boards where I have had to recuse myself due to conflicts of interest - it is a standard thing | 16:57 |
| jbryce | mugsie: disclosure to a board in executive session is definitely not the same at all as a public disclosure | 16:59 |
| jbryce | to be clear, i'm totally fine with not having executive session for project review. i haven't been able to come up with a specific example of when it would be needed for that | 16:59 |
| jbryce | but it's factually incorrect to state that a discussion under executive session is equivalent to any disclosure | 17:00 |
| mnaser | I can understand the concern from both sides, but I'm trusting our individual board members will be on these and will speak up if things are not ok. | 17:00 |
| jbryce | when the board started gold/platinum member reviews, there was no allowance for discussion under executive session (this was actually how i pushed to have the bylaws written). the board ended up adding it at the request of a director who had extremely relevant information that could not be shared publicly but that could be shared under the confidentiality provided by executive session | 17:02 |
| mugsie | jbryce: it depends on the disclosure of course, but e.g. if it is forward looking financial results / forcasts of a traded company, that would be considered a disclosure (at least here). the devil is in the context :) | 17:03 |
| jbryce | it's happened a couple of times, but in the cases where it's happened, i'm glad that the directors provided the information to the board in a legally appropriate way rather than just recusing themselves. in fact, rather than saying they shouldn't be on the board because of that, i think it's an example of why they SHOULD be and how their presence was helpful in making better decisions for the foundation | 17:05 |
| mugsie | jbryce: and now, the end result is presentations happen, there is a small amount of discussion, and then the board closes the doors, and result comes out the far end - I just don't want to see that happen for what should be community based decisions about projects | 17:06 |
| mnaser | I think what that's implying is the board closes the door _if_ someone requests to close the doors with a justifiable reason, unless I've misunderstood things. | 17:07 |
| smcginnis | That's the intent. | 17:07 |
| jbryce | again...i haven't come up with a reason why we'd need this for project reviews yet. i'm just trying to make sure we don't over simplify this and say all disclosures are the same and if a director has information that can't be shared publicly they shouldn't be involved in any board decisions | 17:07 |
| smcginnis | I did ask if we can reword it to make that more clear at least. | 17:07 |
| mugsie | jbryce: yes, my bad, i was over simplifying | 17:07 |
| mnaser | tc-members: we have a few reviews for elaborating on business value that would be really nice to finalize and merge. they've been sitting around for aw while now, try to please take sometime to go over them. | 17:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: document voting process https://review.openstack.org/647731 | 17:17 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add resolution to namespace unofficial projects https://review.openstack.org/645601 | 17:20 |
| jbryce | mnaser: on the earlier discussion, i connected you with horace, but i wanted to mention it's a holiday weekend in china so it may be a few days before he can engage on it with you | 17:22 |
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| mnaser | jbryce: cool, thank you, I'll work with gmann to get some communication and we can gather some more information to help that team work more in the open :) | 17:22 |
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| diablo_rojo | mnaser, so..15 min or 30 min for lunch talks? (If you do 30 there will be talking all through lunch as opposed to the last half hour like we have historically done) | 17:28 |
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| mnaser | I was thinking 15 for goals and 15 for updates and future, any thoughts from other tc-members ? | 17:38 |
| jroll | makes sense, also gives time for q&a | 17:38 |
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| TheJulia | We should always give time fore Q&A | 17:47 |
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| gmann | i am thinking, updates and future might take more than 15 min because it includes all projects train highlights ... | 17:51 |
| mnaser | I think diablo_rojo is only giving us a max of 30 minutes so we're gonna have to make it work.. somehow :) | 17:51 |
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| gmann | yeah. i was thinking to take some time from train goals but Train goals is imp to explain when most of the developers are there | 18:03 |
| fungi | we can always tell folks to find us in our room on saturday for more in-depth questions (or better still, recommend discussing on the ml) | 18:08 |
| gmann | +1 | 18:09 |
| fungi | this is but one tiny example of how the community is needing to compromise with regard to the compressed nature of this ptg schedule, after all | 18:10 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : ++ | 18:32 |
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| gmann | tc-members: All the legacy jobs are now migrated to bionic. I have marked the migration activity completed - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-April/004647.html | 19:55 |
| gmann | as next step, we can now safely remove the py35 jobs from stable/stein and train gate. which is what we decided in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/python3-meeting | 19:58 |
| gmann | If there is no oppose to drop py35, I can push the py35 job removal patches during this weekend so that we can save the gate consumption for working days | 20:00 |
| gmann | first set will be to drop the py35 jobs from train gate and then backport them to stable/stein | 20:02 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | \o/ | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | gmann : maybe wait to push all of those patches until after the final release next week? we have a few teams doing last minute release candidates | 20:16 |
| gmann | dhellmann: that is good point. you mean to hold only backport to stable/stein or master patch also ? | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | I wouldn't submit a large number of any patches this week | 20:20 |
| gmann | i see, yeah i can wait until final release. | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | let everyone focus on finishing stein, and submit those for next weekend | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 20:21 |
| gmann | one point i was thinking, do we need to backport the py35 drop for stable/stein ? we just drop it from master (train) and leave stable/stein as it is which does not harm i think. | 20:22 |
| * mnaser thinks zaneb and fungi are one of the best to answer the above | 20:32 | |
| zaneb | I know fungi was keen to drop it from stable/stein | 20:33 |
| zaneb | and I don't see any great harm in that | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | we could do that by adding an exclusion rule in the template I think, instead of landing all of those stable patches | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | did we get the new series-specific template name stuff set up? | 20:34 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: that's a good idea | 20:34 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: yes | 20:34 |
| zaneb | (for train, not stein) | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | I guess not in time to have that be part of the branching process, though, if we're talking about writing the patches by hand? | 20:35 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: the template was there but the change to use it didn't get proposed as part of the branching process | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that's what I meant | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | we should update the branching script before the end of train | 20:37 |
| gmann | yeah, we can restrict the job not to run on stable/setin but its usage on projects side zuul.yaml might confuse people. | 20:40 |
| fungi | i think as a middle ground it's fine to tell teams they're welcome to drop their stable/stein py35 jobs at their leisure and that we consider those jobs to be eol when stable/rocky is | 20:53 |
| fungi | and not scramble for a mass patchfest to force the issue | 20:53 |
| mnaser | does this also mean we can change the PTI document now given what we CI'd with bionic the last release? | 21:09 |
| * mnaser doesn't remember the exact details | 21:09 | |
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| fungi | mnaser: i don't think they need adjusting: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/runtimes/stein.html | 22:41 |
| fungi | we already didn't include python 3.5 or ubuntu xenial for stein's | 22:42 |
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