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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Amend reference/PTI to add openSUSE https://review.openstack.org/633460 | 12:42 |
|---|---|---|
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: simplify the links to operating systems https://review.openstack.org/637845 | 12:42 |
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| evrardjp | o/ | 14:03 |
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| jroll | is it office hours time? | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | tc-members - office houring | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | jroll: It is indeed. | 15:00 |
| jroll | yay, my calendar works | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | Grab a comfy chair before someone else does/ :) | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | :) | 15:01 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 15:04 |
| fungi | yep | 15:04 |
| mugsie | o/ | 15:04 |
| mnaser | i had a really interesting read last night -- https://medium.com/@herbcaudill/lessons-from-6-software-rewrite-stories-635e4c8f7c22 | 15:04 |
| mnaser | probably somewhat relevant to cdent bringing up the whole 'what would you change in openstack' and approaches | 15:05 |
| mnaser | yes, many of those are product-based but there are cool things to learn | 15:05 |
| cdent | That question was intended to get more at the character of the candidates' fantasies about openstack, not real options | 15:07 |
| cdent | but both is okay | 15:07 |
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| * lbragstad would love to get his hands on said wand | 15:10 | |
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| mugsie | lbragstad: you and me both | 15:13 |
| fungi | pretty sure any fantasies i've had about openstack have been thoroughly disabused over these past ~7 years | 15:14 |
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| cdent | fungi: would you described that as becoming disillusioned or learning more about reality? | 15:31 |
| smcginnis | Reality is a disillusion. | 15:31 |
| cdent | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgOn7wuC3tk | 15:32 |
| fungi | cdent: coming to terms with reality, not particularly disillusioned | 15:33 |
| cdent | I have a real question about policy | 15:33 |
| fungi | ooh, i love those | 15:33 |
| cdent | What's the current ruling about translation of exception messages (especially those that will show up in http responses)? I seem to recall that it was decided that logs don't need it. | 15:34 |
| cdent | The reason I ask is that the babel python dependency is huge (26M0 | 15:35 |
| cdent | sorry s/26MO/26M)/ | 15:35 |
| mugsie | I don't think we had a ruling on that id we? | 15:36 |
| mugsie | did we* | 15:36 |
| fungi | i don't know we got that specific, but think the consensus was that end-user-facing errors *might* benefit from translation (though usually being able to perform a web search on them was helped by not getting a localized wording) | 15:36 |
| cdent | right, that | 15:37 |
| mugsie | yeah, that was my recolection | 15:37 |
| fungi | user interfaces and documentation are, of course, the priority for translators anyway | 15:37 |
| mugsie | it was more of a "sure, why not if you want to" than a "do this" | 15:37 |
| fungi | odds they'll get around to translating api responses, even if marked for translation, are slim | 15:37 |
| cdent | We've been doing some tuning in placement which has removed a lot of transitive dependencies | 15:37 |
| cdent | The biggest remaining one is babel | 15:37 |
| mugsie | rm -rf it :) | 15:38 |
| mugsie | do you have translated strings already? | 15:38 |
| fungi | er, i meant not get around to translating api responses | 15:38 |
| cdent | placement doesn't really have a user interface in the traditional sense: the only messages are in error responses | 15:38 |
| cdent | no translation yet | 15:38 |
| cdent | it's configured for it, but there are no translations | 15:39 |
| cdent | so it might be an ideal time to just not have it, if that's an option | 15:39 |
| fungi | grr, i got confused by my own phrasing. basically, trying to say the translators already have plenty to do, so adding things they're unlikely to translate probably helps nobody in the end | 15:39 |
| mugsie | cdent: ++1 | 15:40 |
| fungi | if it's an api-only project, i can see choosing not to even bother setting it up for translation at all | 15:40 |
| jroll | this is the most recent decision I can find on the topic: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/114191.html | 15:41 |
| jroll | but I tend to agree with cdent and fungi | 15:41 |
| mugsie | jroll: look at you learning how the TC works :P | 15:42 |
| jroll | mugsie: I've been an openstack history buff for years, don't worry :P | 15:42 |
| fungi | thanks jroll!!! | 15:42 |
| cdent | naw, mugsie jroll is transceding the TC and using _evidence_ | 15:42 |
| fungi | "Please keep translations for exceptions and other user-facing messages, for now." | 15:42 |
| mugsie | no, agreeing with cdent and fungi | 15:42 |
| fungi | so i take that as don't delete translations for user-facing api exceptions if you have any | 15:42 |
| cdent | and if you don't, figure it out then... | 15:43 |
| fungi | yup | 15:43 |
| mugsie | cdent: evidence is overrated | 15:43 |
| cdent | I shall consult with the rest of the placement crew | 15:43 |
| jroll | and just for completeness, the logging guidelines say not to translate logs, but don't say if we should or should not translate user-facing messages: https://docs.openstack.org/oslo.i18n/latest/user/guidelines.html | 15:43 |
| mnaser | babel is super heavy though :( | 15:43 |
| jroll | er, wait, didn't read the top bit, as usual: "All text messages the user sees via exceptions or API calls should be marked for translation" | 15:44 |
| jroll | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 15:44 |
| fungi | yeah, if it were my project i think i'd prefer not to bother with the complexity and heavyweight dependency for very minor gains | 15:44 |
| fungi | do users interact with the placement api? | 15:44 |
| jroll | I also would not put it in a new project, especially one like placement that is primarily used programatically | 15:44 |
| mnaser | imho shouldn't the clients have the translated strings really | 15:45 |
| * smcginnis remembers losing that argument on an internal project years ago | 15:45 | |
| cdent | fungi: not yet, but there's room for future expandability | 15:46 |
| jroll | mnaser: curl wouldn't accept my patch to add them :P | 15:46 |
| fungi | heh | 15:46 |
| jroll | (I see your point, but there are many clients) | 15:46 |
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| smcginnis | Yeah, in our case of having many different, and unknown, clients, that doesn't really work. | 15:47 |
| mnaser | jroll: perhaps having defined exceptions we raise in a common pattern in our apis | 15:47 |
| mnaser | which are then translated/stored somewhere you can import | 15:47 |
| jroll | ++ | 15:47 |
| jroll | something like this? :) https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/api-wg/guidelines/errors.html | 15:48 |
| cdent | so much evidence | 15:48 |
| cdent | placement follows that guideline | 15:48 |
| fungi | the other place we got to with the translating errors discussion is that if we're really interested in localizing error messages then we should implement a registry of error code numbers so that errors could be matched up independent of the localized text accompanying them | 15:48 |
| cdent | and in most errors will no produce a code | 15:48 |
| jroll | I love that guideline | 15:48 |
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| smcginnis | I believe that was being pushed by IBM. | 15:49 |
| fungi | other free software projects, e.g. apache, do it | 15:49 |
| smcginnis | It does make sense. Easy to search for unique error codes. | 15:50 |
| fungi | i definitely use it when i run across bizarre apache errors. even though i'm using the most common (likely default) translation, it's easier to just search on a code | 15:50 |
| fungi | so that has some utility even without localization in the picture | 15:51 |
| cdent | sigh: s/no produce/now produce/ | 15:51 |
| * fungi finds cdent a bigger w key | 15:51 | |
| evrardjp | I like that approach | 15:52 |
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| cdent | I reckon a keyboard where every key was about fist sized would be perfect for me | 15:54 |
| jroll | hmm, could cobble together a few whack-a-mole boards to do this | 15:55 |
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| evrardjp | I imagine cdent at summit with said keyboard. | 16:25 |
| smcginnis | That's an image. | 16:25 |
| evrardjp | :D | 16:25 |
| * cdent awaits a delivery from jroll | 16:27 | |
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| evrardjp | will this arrive to britain though? I was told you were close to getting out of some agreement that would impact your borders. | 16:28 |
| evrardjp | ok sorry, let's scratch that comment, it might not be funny for some. | 16:29 |
| smcginnis | :) | 16:30 |
| cdent | ha! | 16:30 |
| cdent | it could be deliverd to me at the denver convention center, ready and waiting for me | 16:30 |
| smcginnis | I'm tempted - http://www.califoneoutlet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KB2&Click=7&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=shoppingengine&gclid=Cj0KCQiAtbnjBRDBARIsAO3zDl_PwnAkJHgR1k6D0Ki5muGrvXRAzBHAg9PocsnOrkB4NA9A_1sYRCwaAtheEALw_wcB | 16:31 |
| smcginnis | Just doesn't seem to have large enough keys though. | 16:31 |
| cdent | you can do _much_ better than that | 16:37 |
| * mugsie googles for 3d printed keyboards .. I am sure I could scale them to 500% :D | 16:38 | |
| smcginnis | Yes! | 16:39 |
| * diablo_rojo has definitely had things shipped to conference hotels | 16:40 | |
| smcginnis | And people's houses. ;) | 16:41 |
| diablo_rojo | smcginnis, shhhhh I dont think he knows even now exactly who it was. | 16:41 |
| smcginnis | diablo_rojo: He probably has a pretty good idea at least. | 16:41 |
| diablo_rojo | Last I remember he pinned it on someone else, but maybe by now he has narrowed it down. | 16:42 |
| dhellmann | cdent : those old translation guidelines were agreed at a point when the i18n team was still working on API strings. They're focused on horizon and docs now, iiuc. It's probably worth asking them and maybe we should document some new guidelines. | 16:45 |
| cdent | dhellmann: I made an email and hope to get some responses from that which will move us in that direction | 16:46 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 16:46 |
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| dhellmann | mnaser : interesting article, thanks for the link | 18:33 |
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