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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Clarify TC goal-setting role https://review.openstack.org/636948 | 12:52 |
|---|---|---|
| ttx | cdent: as promised last week -- hopefully makes it clearer that goal-setting is part of the TC role ^ | 12:53 |
| cdent | thank you ttx , just opened a tab for that, but it's in a queue :) | 12:53 |
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| * cmurphy wonders if the Dark Side is k8s | 13:34 | |
| ttx | Both have a k | 13:34 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Introduce the Padawan program https://review.openstack.org/636956 | 13:49 |
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| dims | cmurphy : i was just thinking the same as i read ttx's email :) | 14:13 |
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| cmurphy | dims: ha | 14:15 |
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| ttx | Is the dark side stronger? No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive. | 14:36 |
| ttx | dims: on that note, you have not posted your TC non-candidacy yet... might trigger some vocations :) | 14:40 |
| dims | ttx : right, i will do that shortly :) | 14:41 |
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| cdent | tc-members office hours | 15:00 |
| TheJulia | o/ | 15:00 |
| evrardjp | o/ | 15:00 |
| fungi | aloha | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | o/ | 15:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 15:01 |
| cmurphy | hiya | 15:02 |
| fungi | also in the security sig meeting in #openstack-meeting this hour. if the folks working on image encryption are around, i'll mention the pop-up teams ml thread to them | 15:03 |
| ttx | dims: I heard there were discussions about Slack on the k8s steering committee, and how difficult it would be to move of it now... how did that discussion end up ? | 15:03 |
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| dims | ttx : there no proposal on the table to move off it as of right now. moderation has been a big problem right now. So trying to find ways and means of doing that. there were a few attacks on many "open" slack groups (big ones) at the same time (for context) and k8s was hit as well as part of that. | 15:06 |
| fungi | sounds like the irc spammers have found slack? | 15:06 |
| dims | ttx : right now we have to figure out a way to reopen the "slack inviter" | 15:06 |
| dims | right fungi | 15:06 |
| dims | fungi : we have things like @ commands for the entire channel etc locked down, but somehow folks found a way to abuse things like that (in addition to posting very inappropriate content - to put it mildly) | 15:08 |
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| dims | right now folks are being redirected to stackoverflow and discuss, but that's not working well as the questions/queries are not being answered in a timely fashion | 15:09 |
| fungi | sure | 15:10 |
| fungi | people are too used to the instant gratification of group messaging | 15:11 |
| * cdent shakes tiny fist at instant gratification | 15:11 | |
| cdent | I frequently do a mental exercise with myself to see if I could do openstack community-ness without irc and I never get far | 15:12 |
| cdent | which I think is kind of broken | 15:12 |
| mnaser | having spent sometime in europe, you really can feel a huge difference. | 15:12 |
| mnaser | i cant even imagine what its like for apac | 15:12 |
| mnaser | having brought up apac, bringing up the new release naming thread over to wechat and asking those members of the community to comment on the subject has sparked up a few responses from that community on the ML, which is awesome to see | 15:13 |
| mnaser | ttx: has there been traction on that openstack official wechat group? | 15:15 |
| mnaser | i know we spoke about it in the denver ptg | 15:15 |
| mnaser | perhaps also fungi can/could chime on that | 15:16 |
| ttx | good question, maybe aprice knows status | 15:17 |
| mnaser | i think one of the issues is a limit of 500 people on those groups right now so it limits exposure | 15:18 |
| ttx | (china is asleep at this hour) | 15:18 |
| fungi | yeah, no clue personally | 15:20 |
| aprice | Yeah the IM oriented groups do have a lot. However we have been working with Horace on the foundation channel which has 4400+ members. I think there is a comment feature but not a dialogue feel like the other group | 15:23 |
| aprice | Have a limit* | 15:23 |
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| mnaser | aprice: is there a way to access that one? i don't think i'm in there, but i see the difference | 15:24 |
| fungi | as i understand, "wechat" is lots of different things with different interfaces (instant messaging, blogging, microblogging, image sharing, ...) | 15:25 |
| aprice | mnaser: i think that i can grab a link. checking | 15:26 |
| aprice | and yeah - it serves a lot of different functions. many that i still dont understand. | 15:26 |
| * cmurphy curious about the TC's feelings on http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2019-February/002708.html | 15:28 | |
| aprice | mnaser: i may have to wait until one of my team members gets online...i cant figure out how to share | 15:28 |
| mnaser | cmurphy: no worries :) | 15:28 |
| mnaser | err | 15:28 |
| mnaser | aprice: no worries | 15:28 |
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| mnaser | cmurphy: having followed the process so far, i think it seems relatively well put together thanks to the board's subgroup work. | 15:30 |
| mnaser | obviously as things change, osf and openstack are two seperate but close things and this is more of an osf thing, but i don't think many of those projects have resulted in any inherently bad for openstack, it's actually resulted in more people involved using our tooling and ecosystem | 15:31 |
| mnaser | i.e. kata experimenting with zuul for ci, starlingx using zuul and working with nova to push patches upstream and decrease their diffs from upstream (so getting more contributors indirectly) | 15:32 |
| mnaser | and airship also has indirectly helped other smaller projects which it leverages and provided value in helping bridge the different technologies to integrate them with our ecosystem | 15:33 |
| cdent | cmurphy: a while back the tc was invited to comment on its own specific draft of that | 15:33 |
| cdent | i'm not sure how many did. I did, but then lost the thread | 15:33 |
| mnaser | and zuul is really our darling so i like those guidelines and overall i'm pretty excited to see us having our first 'confirmed' project | 15:33 |
| mnaser | cdent: correct, yes that was the case, all other 'governance' of other project did the same as well | 15:34 |
| ttx | It will be interesting to see how it plays in practice. | 15:34 |
| cdent | since etherpad is where info goes to never be found again, I'm struggling to rediscover the page | 15:34 |
| cmurphy | how does starlingx measure up? it's still basically a fork iiuc, so does that go against eg "the project has taken advantage of opportunities for integration and complementarity with other open source projects both inside and outside the foundation." | 15:34 |
| fungi | cdent: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/TCReview-ConfirmationGuidelines is where we were brainstorming our feedback | 15:35 |
| cdent | thanks | 15:35 |
| fungi | cmurphy: most of starlingx is not a fork of anything | 15:35 |
| ttx | Current draft is at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/FoundationListFeedback-ConfirmationGuidelines | 15:35 |
| fungi | cmurphy: starlingx is experiencing an existential crisis to separate the identity of its open source project from the commercial linux distribution which birthed it | 15:36 |
| ttx | cmurphy: they are now committed to building their distro on top of master branches, at least | 15:36 |
| smcginnis | "most" | 15:36 |
| ttx | the remaining delta (nova and neutron iirc) will be handled as in-flight patches, like for Linux distros | 15:37 |
| cmurphy | fungi: ttx good to know | 15:37 |
| fungi | a lot of the challenge is that windriver's titanium cloud was/is intended to be a full-featured linux distro, so has a lot of its own management tooling but also has patched targeted features into some of the software it includes (namely bits of openstack, qemu, ceph, and some other stuff as well) | 15:37 |
| ttx | at least that was the plan as of a couple of months ago. ildikov likely knows more | 15:37 |
| dtroyer | starlinx is going to do a feature branch merge any day now that puts us on stein for OpenStack services, running in containers. There is still a list of things to merge upstream to make it all work but that list is much shorter and about 70% will make it in stein | 15:37 |
| ildikov | o/ | 15:38 |
| smcginnis | That's good progress. | 15:38 |
| ildikov | as dtroyer says | 15:38 |
| cmurphy | dtroyer: that's awesome | 15:38 |
| fungi | starlingx is sort of working toward being all that separate tooling, and maybe (hopefully) not an actual distro itself but rather building blocks for derived distros | 15:38 |
| fungi | from what i've seen | 15:38 |
| ttx | fungi: agree the main challenge for them is to clarify what the project wants to achieve exactly. A Metadistro. a distro, a bunch of patches and config options ? | 15:38 |
| cdent | something other than all things to all people would be nice | 15:39 |
| dtroyer | fungi: we just touched on that again in the tsc meeting this morning. right now the bit we agree on is to keep working to separate the new services from the distro-specific bits, partially by supporting another distro | 15:39 |
| ildikov | there might still be discussions happening about a clean direction, but there is certainly a desire to be modular, etc | 15:40 |
| dtroyer | even to the point that we are writing devstack plugins for 5 of them | 15:40 |
| fungi | yeah, i think cross-distro support will help immensely, and allow starlingx to have its own identity as the software on which some commercial distros (such as titanium cloud) are built | 15:40 |
| mnaser | FYI, mriedem published a nice google slide about the progress of nova and starlingx in terms of patches (this was a while back) | 15:40 |
| mnaser | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-sigs/2018-August/000462.html | 15:41 |
| mnaser | from a few months ago | 15:41 |
| fungi | basically the main challenge i see in their community at this point is establishing a clear upstream/downstream division between what titanium cloud is and what starlingx is | 15:41 |
| dtroyer | fungi: that's a polite way of putting it :) | 15:41 |
| ildikov | :) | 15:42 |
| dtroyer | mnaser: that list was done without the benefit of seeing the (now published) individual patches that made up thos echanges. mriedem did an awesome job of sorting it all out | 15:42 |
| fungi | they clearly can't be the same thing, and when someone is a developer on both titanium cloud and starlingx they need to be able to separate their work, their goals and their interactions between those two masters | 15:43 |
| mnaser | dtroyer: yeah, i think it would be awesome to see a follow up to that, but i understand that's time and work :) | 15:43 |
| ttx | still, a lot of progress in the right direction. | 15:43 |
| dtroyer | https://github.com/starlingx-staging/stx-nova/tree/master/stx-patches has that broken out list of patches… | 15:44 |
| fungi | i also expect that if they can entice developers from a lot more organizations to get involved in the project, it will help slowly change the culture. while it's still dominated by a couple of companies it's too easy to just see the project as the product | 15:44 |
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| mnaser | fungi: that takes time, but progress in the good direction as ttx says | 15:45 |
| fungi | yep! | 15:45 |
| mnaser | dtroyer: that list of patches, have some of them been upstreamed (aka can we perhaps make commits to remove the ones that have landed upstream evenutally?) | 15:46 |
| mnaser | dtroyer: and also thanks for being so patient and getting through with this, it wasn't an easy road to take :) | 15:47 |
| dtroyer | mnaser: yes, some have merged, many are not relevant. That was just the list of what we started with, basically an explosion of the single squash commit that we started with | 15:47 |
| dtroyer | as those repos are about to be mothballed, I don't plan on updating any of those patch lists. (we published those for most of the OpenStack projects) | 15:48 |
| mnaser | gotcha | 15:48 |
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| dtroyer | I think this whole story is a good object lesson for those who think carrying private forks of anything is a long-term solution to their problems | 15:50 |
| mnaser | ++ | 15:50 |
| smcginnis | Would be great if some of that was written up somewhere. ;) | 15:50 |
| dtroyer | I'm keeping notes but it's still a little too fresh for me to look back just yet | 15:51 |
| smcginnis | Maybe a good Summit talk about how to avoid things like that for others to learn from. | 15:52 |
| * dtroyer wants cdent's self-reflection superpowers | 15:52 | |
| smcginnis | Hah | 15:52 |
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| cdent | pardon, what? | 15:53 |
| dtroyer | smcginnis: I ahd thought about proposing one for Denver, maybe it'll be ready for China | 15:53 |
| dtroyer | cdent: the way you are able to take a look at the things going on around you and write a coherent summary amazes me. | 15:53 |
| smcginnis | That might be a good place for it. ;) | 15:53 |
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| cdent | dtroyer: oh, right, yeah, I suppose so. People have describe that in various ways in the past but you are not the first to call it a superpower | 15:54 |
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| * cdent needs a new tshirt | 15:54 | |
| cdent | If I could figure out a good way to put that on my CV... | 15:55 |
| fungi | tshirt? what you need, sir, is a cape | 16:01 |
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| * cmurphy moves for getting capes as denver summit swag | 16:02 | |
| smcginnis | I second. | 16:02 |
| cdent | do you people never watch the movies or read comics or nothing? | 16:06 |
| cdent | NO CAPES! | 16:06 |
| cdent | unless you're trying to get me killed | 16:07 |
| smcginnis | hah | 16:07 |
| cmurphy | if we all have capes then you will blend in | 16:07 |
| smcginnis | Just stay away from jet engines. | 16:07 |
| cdent | hard to do with all that travel | 16:07 |
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| fungi | jet-resistant capes | 16:49 |
| diablo_rojo | The obvious replacement for a cap is a train conductor hat | 16:49 |
| clarkb | I don't think my argument for train conductor hat made it very far | 16:50 |
| clarkb | people not expected to wear them or something | 16:50 |
| diablo_rojo | What about bandannas? | 16:51 |
| diablo_rojo | Overalls? | 16:51 |
| cdent | I am intrigued by train conductor hat. | 16:51 |
| clarkb | or train whistles now that denver trains going silent March 1 | 16:51 |
| clarkb | we can reenact the stapleton environment | 16:52 |
| fungi | i'm for scheduled daily stapleton reenactments | 16:52 |
| lbragstad | to ensure maximum productivity | 16:52 |
| cdent | a thousand voices raised in train song | 16:52 |
| * diablo_rojo imagines clarkb running into forum rooms, blowing the whistle and then running out | 16:53 | |
| lbragstad | ttx so - the padawan program? i'm having a hard time understanding if that is supposed to be something other than the FC sig? | 16:53 |
| cdent | diablo_rojo you can't make statements like that with the term "running" it must be "dashing" | 16:54 |
| ttx | lbragstad: the best explanation for the difference would be cmurphy's email on that thread | 16:55 |
| ttx | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-February/002639.html | 16:56 |
| lbragstad | yeah - i read it, i was looking at your response though | 16:56 |
| ttx | The level of commitment is, I think, different. But I'm happy to be proven wrong :) | 16:57 |
| lbragstad | correct me if i'm wrong, but the FC sig helps filter people through to other methods of mentorship, right? | 16:58 |
| ttx | so the key differences would be: the offer comes with a description of the wanted role, and the mentor ends up in a 1:1 relationship | 16:58 |
| ttx | The FC is for guiding first-time contributors to success | 16:59 |
| ttx | This is for turning contributors into core members of teams | 16:59 |
| diablo_rojo | cdent, I feel dashing is more for those wearing capes.. is clarkb also wearing a cape in this scenario? | 17:00 |
| * cdent bows | 17:00 | |
| cdent | you win | 17:00 |
| clarkb | need a fog machine to stand in for steam engine | 17:00 |
| diablo_rojo | lbragstad, correct | 17:00 |
| lbragstad | ttx ok - i'm getting mixed signals then, because i can't tell if we want this to be a place where we get new contributors on the path or core or if it is supposed to be a place where people come to work on hard, help needed areas like what cmurphy describes in paragraphy three of http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-February/002639.html | 17:02 |
| lbragstad | or both | 17:02 |
| ttx | I'd say both ? In a lot of cases what the projects in help-most-needed as k for is "just more regular team members" | 17:03 |
| ttx | and since listing them on a list is apparently not working, I'm trying to think of other solutions | 17:04 |
| ttx | like turning the message more positively, from "help-needed" to "mentoring-offered" | 17:05 |
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| cdent | I fear that's too soft | 17:06 |
| ttx | mind you, that might also fail, but I'm of a optimistic temper | 17:06 |
| lbragstad | cdent agreed | 17:06 |
| ttx | soft how? | 17:06 |
| cdent | it needs to be more like | 17:06 |
| lbragstad | if something needs help, it's likely time sensitive | 17:06 |
| cdent | oy, if nobody does this stuff, openstack is unhealthy and dollars will be lost | 17:06 |
| ttx | lbragstad: infra has been asking for help for the last 4 years, so not sure it's time-sensitive really | 17:07 |
| lbragstad | mentorship is about inventing time into *someone* where help wanted is about inventing it into *something* imo | 17:07 |
| cdent | but then, I'm of a push harder on the corps temper | 17:07 |
| lbragstad | investing* | 17:07 |
| ttx | cdent: that is the approach we've taken with help-most-needed... Putting that list in front of "the corps", with no success | 17:08 |
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| cdent | that list was also too soft | 17:08 |
| cdent | and wasn't frame in the way they want | 17:08 |
| cdent | they've come right out and said "make us some job descriptions" | 17:08 |
| cdent | so maybe we should do that? | 17:09 |
| cdent | using language like "safeguard the success of ...." | 17:09 |
| ttx | maybe. That was not very inspiring though since nobody picked that up | 17:09 |
| cdent | I think that gets to the root of the issue here | 17:10 |
| ttx | I was kind of hoping someone would push back on my thread and push that "job description" open again in that thread but nobody did | 17:11 |
| ttx | which is why I forged ahead | 17:11 |
| ttx | but it's not too late, feel free to push that "hard" line | 17:11 |
| ttx | You might be right. The only thing we know is that the current middle-ground is not working | 17:12 |
| lbragstad | do we expect those job descriptions to be tackled by people being mentored? or are those job descriptions going to have a language that implies we need experienced individuals to drive it | 17:12 |
| lbragstad | to me, the answer to that might tell us if we actually expect newcomers to help us with items on this new list | 17:12 |
| ttx | lbragstad: no that was the board feedback in... Vancouver? that the help-most-needed list should be rewritten and presented as a series of job descriptions | 17:13 |
| ttx | to be more actionable/consumable by them | 17:13 |
| diablo_rojo | Are we thinking they are going to cut paste from the list to their own job boards? | 17:14 |
| lbragstad | yeah - i remember that. i think it was just a way for us to be more descriptive in what we need help on, instead of saying "project X needs help, go talk to this person" | 17:15 |
| ttx | It's not my first time reformatting taht list so I've grown a bit skeptical of that "no wait if only it was written this way" type of feedback | 17:15 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove instack https://review.openstack.org/635278 | 17:15 |
| ttx | which is why I did not personally pick it up | 17:16 |
| ttx | but then nobody else did | 17:16 |
| cdent | And I didn't pick it up because as a group we don't seem excited by taking a more demanding stance, which I think a) we need to do, b) if we do needs to a concerted effort on many fronts | 17:17 |
| cdent | so until there is consensus about it... | 17:17 |
| cdent | There's a a great reluctance to question our open source bonafides and think of ourselves more as the coordinators of some enter-source | 17:18 |
| cdent | which is fine, in a sense, but it means that stuff we think needs to be done won't get done | 17:18 |
| cdent | because nobody is itchy enough | 17:19 |
| dhellmann | which makes me wonder if "needs to be done" is the right way to describe it in the first place | 17:19 |
| dhellmann | but I agree, we should be making clear what the impact of not having things done will be | 17:19 |
| cdent | I personally can't stand that model because it leaves the working environment for regular contributors less healthy than I'm willing to abide | 17:20 |
| cdent | essentially this all comes down to a quality of life argument on my part in an economic context where the rentiers are not stepping up | 17:20 |
| cdent | which is an argument that if we admit, blows the whole dream out of the water, so I can see why people don't want to touch that | 17:20 |
| smcginnis | I think if we can define a good template or format, it should be on the teams seeking help to fill it out. | 17:20 |
| * cdent puts on his marx tshirt (or cape?) | 17:21 | |
| smcginnis | Both. And a conductor hat. | 17:21 |
| cdent | must be time for this again: http://existentialcomics.com/comic/186 | 17:22 |
| dhellmann | cdent : well, the other part of that is we would stop prioritizing work non-contributors ask for over work contributors want. we just need to be careful about how we define contributors. | 17:22 |
| cdent | dhellmann: in my experience that's often the case already | 17:23 |
| dhellmann | that seems natural to me | 17:23 |
| cdent | but I agree care is required | 17:24 |
| fungi | part of the reasoning behind the "job description" suggestion is because what we need is not for some altruistic organization to toss 20 interns at us, it's for organizations to employ folks who are long-time contributors and interested in continuing to be involved after their current funding is pulled out from under them. having a job description some organization can use to hire those individuals is | 17:24 |
| fungi | one way to potentially solve that dilemma | 17:24 |
| diablo_rojo | cdent, s/care/cape :) | 17:24 |
| dhellmann | fungi : right | 17:24 |
| * cdent bows to diablo_rojo _again_ | 17:24 | |
| fungi | so, like, to revisit the infra example, having a generic job description covering the responsibilities of an engaged full-time infra team member written and published makes it possible for a company to find someone who fits that description (ideally someone who was already doing it before their employer decided to bury them in some internal proprietary thing) | 17:26 |
| cdent | that seems reasonable | 17:30 |
| cmurphy | I still think the job posting framing is a valuable part of this, I've been trying to advocate that the mentoring-offered listing should include specifics of what the "job" is and what interests/skills/experience would make a good match for the "position" | 17:33 |
| * lbragstad goes to write up an example | 17:38 | |
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| dhellmann | lbragstad : regarding the clean-up goal, I think if you think it's ready to start writing up the completion criteria, etc. then go for it | 17:48 |
| lbragstad | dhellmann sounds good - afaict i don't think there is anything preventing that from going into review, i was waiting to see if adriant or tobias were going to propose it, but i can take a crack at it later today or tomorrow | 17:56 |
| dhellmann | lbragstad : oh, I definitely suggest that you help the champions, but not do it for them. They need to understand the process, too. | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | so - maybe just a lightly bootstrapped goal to get things started? | 18:01 |
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| dims | lbragstad : here's an example (from RH) - https://lensa.com/senior-software-engineer-openstack-oslo-project-jobs/westford/jd/4df8ce1a7f0adf1ecb77ab32ef1f3a29 | 18:20 |
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| dhellmann | lbragstad : yeah, maybe start working in an etherpad or something, get the template set up, etc.? | 18:28 |
| openstackgerrit | Lance Bragstad proposed openstack/governance master: WIP: Add a job description for unified limits work https://review.openstack.org/637025 | 18:28 |
| lbragstad | thanks dims | 18:32 |
| lbragstad | ^ those are my initial thoughts if i were to write a job description for one of the cross project initiatives i'm familiar with | 18:33 |
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| adriant | lbragstad: yes I need to throw up the review for the project/resource deletion goal. | 21:23 |
| adriant | Do we have any templates/guides for what it needs to look like? I assume it goes in openstack/governance/goals/train | 21:25 |
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| lbragstad | adriant correct | 21:30 |
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| lbragstad | adriant there is a goal template available that should give you some guidance - http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/goals/template.rst | 21:43 |
| lbragstad | just copy it to the release you're targeting your proposed goal to | 21:44 |
| adriant | lbragstad: ah fantastic! ty | 21:45 |
| lbragstad | adriant no problem - ping if you have addition questions | 21:47 |
| lbragstad | additional* | 21:47 |
| * lbragstad really has issues with typing today | 21:47 | |
| adriant | lbragstad: I know those days. | 21:48 |
| adriant | How deep into specific implementation should I get in the goal review? | 21:48 |
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| adriant | I assume as far as is sane, but not too far to limit exactly what we end up doing once we realise it's more complicated than expected? | 21:49 |
| lbragstad | the goal doc should be detailed enough for readers to be able to go implement right after reading | 21:49 |
| lbragstad | so - including links to reference implementations is a good idea | 21:49 |
| lbragstad | or code snippets | 21:49 |
| * adriant nods | 21:49 | |
| adriant | alright, I have some ideas about how to do it, but we'll need a lot of review so that it makes sense | 21:50 |
| lbragstad | but if there is specific criteria needed to meet the goal, it should be clearly outlined in the goal document | 21:50 |
| lbragstad | that's another reason why pre-work and starting the review process early is valuable, because it gives us the opportunity to look for those details before we merge the goal | 21:52 |
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