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| cdent | I have spun up some energy at $work to get a few more people interested in paying attention upstream, but there are the usual fears about the amount of time and energy required to be "relevant". We may need some kind of PR. | 11:32 |
|---|---|---|
| cdent | by which I public relations, not pull request | 11:34 |
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| evrardjp | cdent: habits are tough to beat | 13:00 |
| evrardjp | cdent: what do you mean by PR there, and what do you really mean by 'be relevant'? | 13:01 |
| evrardjp | I thought there was a guide on the works on benefits of upstream involvments | 13:01 |
| cdent | the public relations is "making it more visible that we are working on making contribution to openstack easier". The benefits aren't the issue. It's the challenges that individuals face "getting noticed" | 13:02 |
| cdent | relevance == "getting significant code merged" | 13:02 |
| cdent | in the larger projects, espeically nova, there's a lot of fear about that | 13:02 |
| cdent | "I had to prostrate myself to the nova cores for months" | 13:02 |
| cdent | that kind of thing | 13:03 |
| evrardjp | well that's very team dependant though | 13:05 |
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| cdent | evrardjp: yes, definitely, but given nova's size and position, it's relevant | 13:06 |
| cdent | and it is becoming less of an issue (nova is getting "nicer") but there are _many_ people out there who don't know that | 13:07 |
| cdent | and still feel like their effort will be wasted as thus will not bother trying | 13:07 |
| evrardjp | so you want a public message out that we're _day to day_ improving the easiness of contributing to openstack | 13:07 |
| cdent | I want that we are making that effort to improve things to be more visible | 13:08 |
| evrardjp | I think TheJulia 's initiative of anti-nitpicking and documentation like this guide (https://docs.openstack.org/contributors/index.html ) is on the right path,but I am not sure how I can raise that visibility at my level | 13:09 |
| evrardjp | cdent: well if you were (hypothetically) creating a big feature, that would appear in the release notes or in cycle highlights | 13:09 |
| TheJulia | Good morning | 13:09 |
| cdent | mornin' TheJulia | 13:10 |
| evrardjp | I am very confused on what I can do on this level | 13:10 |
| cdent | evrardjp: I think being conscious of it is the first step | 13:10 |
| evrardjp | sorry to have removed you from sleep TheJulia , we were talking about culture | 13:10 |
| evrardjp | I thought your initiative was a good example :) | 13:10 |
| TheJulia | I was already awake | 13:10 |
| evrardjp | cdent: that's fair | 13:11 |
| cdent | the visibility I'm talking about is not after a feature has been merged. I'm talking about making the visibility of things like TheJulia's initiative _more_ visible | 13:11 |
| TheJulia | changing culture... at least in my experience... is something that has to be done slowly and methodically... actively forcing creates resistance | 13:11 |
| evrardjp | cdent: to be honest, I have heard the same kind of echoes on my side of the pond | 13:11 |
| cdent | so that people who are generally averse to contributing (because of history) have some hope and appreciation that things are changing | 13:11 |
| cdent | people within vmware are _super_ averse because of history | 13:12 |
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| evrardjp | I guess word of mouth (if that's the right term) helps there | 13:12 |
| TheJulia | Yeah, but that only spreads so far | 13:12 |
| evrardjp | I guess this is why cdent raised the point :) | 13:13 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 13:13 |
| evrardjp | sadly I have no clue on how to do that on an openstack wide level | 13:13 |
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| evrardjp | I don't think it stops spreading though, it's just slow | 13:13 |
| evrardjp | (I mean the word of mouth thing) | 13:14 |
| evrardjp | maybe there are people more experienced than me on this -- experience in other communities would help -- I think kernel for example | 13:14 |
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| fungi | i have to wonder how many such negative experiences come from a place of developers working at vendors trying to get features added for the benefit of their employers, and failing to adequately explain the benefit to the project/community of prioritizing said features | 16:43 |
| fungi | "we have 10x more submissions than we can effectively review/merge, what makes yours more important than at least 90% of the backlog?" | 16:44 |
| cdent | fungi: I suspect that's a factor, but I also think, as zbitter has pointed out recently, we don't prioritize responsiveness to casual contributors | 16:46 |
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| cdent | s/don't/haven't historically/ | 16:46 |
| fungi | yeah, i do agree that a failure to improve responsiveness (as the expense of throughput elsewhere of course) has been short-sighted and discouraged involvement from some who could in time get involved enough to help reduce rather than increase the workload | 16:47 |
| fungi | er, at the expense | 16:47 |
| fungi | investment in the future and all that | 16:47 |
| fungi | hopefully that's changing too | 16:48 |
| cdent | it seems to be | 16:48 |
| cdent | which is why I wonder if we migh benefit from talking it up a bit | 16:49 |
| evrardjp | tbh if there was a dashboard in each project that prioritizes those 'casual contributors' reviews, I'd do my homework better. Sometimes there are just too many reviews... | 16:54 |
| cdent | too many review is definitely an issue | 16:55 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Explicitly declare Stein supported runtimes https://review.openstack.org/611080 | 17:24 |
| notmyname | evrardjp: FWIW, we've got a dashboard (http://not.mn/review.html) that has a "small things" section. maybe it's similar to what you're looking for? | 17:38 |
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| smcginnis | notmyname: I get a 404 on that. | 17:50 |
| notmyname | doh. forgot the s | 17:59 |
| notmyname | http://not.mn/reviews.html | 17:59 |
| notmyname | (there's more that one review) | 17:59 |
| smcginnis | That's better. | 18:00 |
| cdent | fungi: Did you see this https://anticdent.org/mailing-list-review.html which I published in a fit of angst about mailing list behavior. I was just reminded of it again because of the lack of reply-to list on opensack-discuss | 18:02 |
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| fungi | cdent: yeah, the main reason we aren't injecting/overriding reply-to (aside from the fact that 2 of the 4 lists we're folding into it didn't do it historically either) is that it would break dmarc/dkim signatures | 18:17 |
| cdent | which seems pretty irrelevant for emails to this kind of list. Why not break them? | 18:17 |
| fungi | because then if you're a subscriber with an address on an mta which checks dkim signatures, it will reject those messages and the listserv will unsubscribe you | 18:18 |
| fungi | this has been a chronic issue with our earlier lists, which is also why we're not appending a footer attachment nor mangling the subject line | 18:19 |
| * cdent shrugs | 18:20 | |
| fungi | something to add would be recommending a mailer that has a reply-to-list feature. most do. there are some unfortunately very popular web-based ones which have decided rfc 2369 support is too much trouble | 18:20 |
| fungi | in mutt, L does this for me | 18:20 |
| fungi | to be clear, i think dmarc/dkim enforcement is silly. however a number of large organizations who contribute to projects using our mailing lists have 1. mailserver policies which force sign all outgoing messages, 2. mailserver policies which reject incoming messages with an invalid dkim signature, and 3. employee policies preventing them from using personal e-mail to engage on these projects | 18:23 |
| cdent | blargh | 18:23 |
| fungi | and the end result is that contributors working for a company which does at least 1 and 3 end up sending messages to the list that cause contributors working for a company which does at least 2 and 3 to be repeatedly unsubscribed from our mailing lists | 18:25 |
| cdent | I'm trying to decide who I want to hurt more | 18:26 |
| fungi | (as well as miss out on receiving those posts their mailserver rejected) | 18:26 |
| cdent | but I definitely want to hurt someone | 18:26 |
| jroll | hurt the corporations, not the people :) | 18:27 |
| cdent | yessiir | 18:29 |
| fungi | yeah, we evaluated some half a dozen potential solutions to this problem, including do nothing, preemptively reject any dkim-signed messages received by the listserv, strip dkim signatures and mangle the from header so that it appears to originate from the ml, encapsulate every message in a mime multi-part wrapper before forwarding... | 18:29 |
| fungi | the "simplest" solution is to have the ml simply not modify forwarded messages in any way which dkim signatures are likely to be invalidated | 18:30 |
| cdent | I guess I'll just cook the incoming messages locally myself, which helps no one else, but oh well | 18:31 |
| fungi | fairly new mm2 versions have an adaptive solution which either rewrites the from and strips dkim or mime encapsulates it (configurable choice) only for messages with dkim signatures, but that also leads to a lot of inconsistency | 18:31 |
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