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| fungi | tc-members and others, it's office hour from now until 02:00 utc | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
| EmilienM | fungi: I think I don't deserve the vote in governance anymore | 01:02 |
| EmilienM | since I'm not an elected tc member this time | 01:02 |
| EmilienM | i had the privilege to use it until today though :) | 01:02 |
| * devananda lurks during office hours | 01:03 | |
| fungi | EmilienM: yes, i think dhellmann hasn't officially removed the departing members from https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/tech-committee yet, only added the new ones | 01:06 |
| fungi | devananda: oh, hey there! long time no see | 01:06 |
| devananda | ohai fungi :) | 01:06 |
| devananda | I'm back in a full-time upstream role now, getting re-acquainted with all the goings on and things | 01:07 |
| fungi | EmilienM: i suspect dhellmann plans to remove the former members once the change to update the roster is approved | 01:07 |
| EmilienM | i'm fine | 01:07 |
| fungi | EmilienM: in the meantime your rollcall vote remains so your vote on it can be retained | 01:08 |
| EmilienM | fungi: I'll use it responsibly :) | 01:08 |
| fungi | if you're removed from the group before that change merges, gerrit won't record your vote on it in perpetuity | 01:08 |
| fungi | devananda: that's amazing news, happy we get to see you around again | 01:09 |
| fungi | coming to berlin next month? | 01:09 |
| devananda | planning to, but waiting on budgetary approval & stuff | 01:09 |
| fungi | hope i get to see you there | 01:10 |
| devananda | ditto | 01:10 |
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| TheJulia | o/ | 01:13 |
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| persia | So, items I wanted to bring to an office hours: 1) Do we want to formalise TC term turnovers in some way, 2) how should they be synced, and 3) [most important] what does it take to get all the TC-specific language out of the Foundation bylaws (or, more generally, all the OpenStack-specific language, if OpenStack is to be one of several projects). | 01:18 |
| fungi | i looked into #3 | 01:18 |
| persia | Cool! Anything useful to report? | 01:18 |
| fungi | it's not just the member policy appendix | 01:19 |
| persia | No, it looked like it was intertwined with lots of things. | 01:19 |
| fungi | there's also some tc-specifics in the bylaws, yes | 01:19 |
| fungi | one downside which was pointed out is that the current foundation bylaws grant the openstack tc a lot of latitude to determine its own governance details without bod approval | 01:20 |
| fungi | whereas the pilot projects are (likely) going to need their governance documents approved by the bod when they're confirmed | 01:21 |
| fungi | if we want the openstack project to be on equal footing with the other (eventually) confirmed projects that means ceding more control to the bod | 01:22 |
| persia | I'm not sure how/why. I can't see anything explicit in the bylaws that authorises anything not part of "the OpenStack project" (from the first sentence), so I figured significant restructuring was happening inyway. | 01:22 |
| devananda | or, conversely, giving each of those projects similarly sufficient lattitude in their own technical governance | 01:23 |
| fungi | nobody i've talked to has seen the draft from the legal affairs committee yet, but it was indicated that the changes they'd planned would mostly be additive, not replacing any current openstack specifics | 01:23 |
| persia | That worries me, because "The OpenStack Foundation is a nonprofit non-stock Foundation (“Foundation”) whose purpose is to develop, support, protect, and promote the open source cloud computing project which is known as the OpenStack Project as defined in these Bylaws." makes it hard to not replace things for having other projects. | 01:24 |
| fungi | yes, i'm having trouble figuring out what direction to take the proposal without knowing the extent of the changes legal affairs is going to propose | 01:25 |
| TheJulia | Going back to the earlier subject of term turnovers (why are we not calling them limits?), I think it is a good thing if we want to turn over more than ~25% each election. | 01:25 |
| fungi | though the current bylaws also grant the openstack tc the ability to propose fully-formed resolutions to the bod for a vote | 01:25 |
| fungi | so we could propose a partial bylaws rewrite if we want | 01:26 |
| persia | TheJulia: Term limits? I was more concerned with the precise dates at which newly elected people were onboarded, and folk not elected were offboarded | 01:26 |
| TheJulia | oh, okay | 01:27 |
| TheJulia | I was confused there, but that makes sense with the other discussion, except I thought the onboarded point was settled | 01:27 |
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| persia | My understanding was that we onboarded folk post-election based on how we did it in the past, except this wasn't actually consistent with the bylaw appendix | 01:29 |
| fungi | i get the impression the way turnover is working is that the election officials propose a change updating the membership (done), the existing members vote on that measure, when the necessary window for public comment has passed the existing chair approves the update, and at that point old members are done and new and continuing members vote on a new chair | 01:30 |
| fungi | but yes, we do need to reconcile it with the osf bylaws | 01:31 |
| devananda | that is how it was, yes | 01:31 |
| persia | fungi: That matches my impression, although it's one of those things I think we should write down :) | 01:32 |
| fungi | fully agreed | 01:32 |
| devananda | my recollection is that it was "as soon as convenient", with about a week between when the change was proposed and when it was approved (ie, one meeting cycle) | 01:33 |
| fungi | yeah, to persia's point, we shouldn't be relying on recollection and impression. we should just add it to our charter | 01:35 |
| devananda | and, to #3, I imagine a proposal to the BoD that removes any proscriptive measures as to how the TC governs itself would be met with approval (but I may also be out of touch a bit) | 01:36 |
| persia | devananda: Except we don't have meetings anymore, which complicates the definition of "one meeting cycle" :) | 01:36 |
| persia | (also, meetings turn out to be required by the bylaws appendix, but that's a different compliance issue) | 01:37 |
| fungi | yeah, "at least quarterly" | 01:38 |
| devananda | indeed. the lack of meetings, I imagine, means that all votes must happen in gerrit now? | 01:40 |
| * devananda wonders if that was ever encoded in the TC charter | 01:40 | |
| fungi | all votes happened in gerrit for a couple years while we were still holding weekly meetings | 01:40 |
| fungi | it's been a very long time since the openstack tc called formal votes in irc meetings | 01:41 |
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| devananda | oh, right | 01:46 |
| persia | So, conclusion I'm reading is that TC would need to have input from Legal Affairs Committee to know what to propose. | 01:53 |
| fungi | in theory there will be a brief public comment period where the proposed bylaws changes/additions they're working on will be made available before they're brought before the bod for a vote, but that's going to be so brief that if we want to get other changes in we'd need to have them drafted ourselves well before that (ideally in the next few days) | 01:55 |
| persia | From my perspective, the right thing is to remove everything explicitly referencing the OpenStack Project, so all the TC&UC stuff, and probably the definition of contributor. | 01:56 |
| fungi | it may make more sense to consider just removing the things we know are likely to want to change in the future | 01:57 |
| persia | Do you think it would be helpful to comb that out of the bylaws and send notice to Legal Affairs as a possible removal in advance, or does this require drafting proposed text? | 01:57 |
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| persia | That's why I want to remove everything project-specific. As a foundation member, I don't want to have to approve a bylaws change any time someone thinks it is a good idea to have a new project. | 01:58 |
| fungi | i'm not sure how to collaborate with legal affairs without going though the bod | 01:58 |
| fungi | what i'm hearing is that they're not proposing to add specifics of any new projects to the bylaws, just rules on how to add and remove and approve governance changes to new projects | 01:59 |
| fungi | but it doesn't sound as if they're as likely to grant any of the newer projects as much ability to change the details of their governance on the fly without consulting the board | 02:00 |
| fungi | i do agree though that getting board approval to change things is way less work than changing any of the (relatively small set of) things we have baked into the bylaws specific to the openstack project | 02:01 |
| fungi | since those require a vote of the openstack foundation members | 02:01 |
| fungi | and we've reached the end of our wednesday office hour as of a few minutes ago, but don't let that stop anyone from continuing discussion | 02:04 |
| * persia doesn't have anything to add, other than a desire to understand how to reach those other folk :) | 02:13 | |
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| ttx | devananda: welcome back! | 08:21 |
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| evrardjp | good morning | 09:01 |
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| * mordred waves to devananda | 12:12 | |
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| jroll | devananda: welcome back :) | 12:46 |
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| TheJulia | Good morning | 13:55 |
| cdent | o/ | 13:55 |
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| dhellmann | devananda : o/ that's good news! | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | mriedem , tonyb : could you weigh in on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/605273/ please? | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: I have workflowed the patch with the election results (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/605896/); sorry for the delay, I could have done that yesterday but the day got away from me | 15:29 |
| mriedem | dhellmann: heh, octavia-lib has existed for 5 days, kind of hard to judge if it's following stable branch policy... | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | Just left a comment along those lines. | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | if we want to ask them to come back, let's set a time to do that | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | (maybe you did, /me goes to read the comments) | 15:31 |
| smcginnis | No, but I also wasn't really sure if I should downvote that. | 15:31 |
| johnsom | Right, I added it as the main Octavia repo is "stable" and this is intended to split some code out of that. We plan to manage it in the same stable manner. | 15:32 |
| smcginnis | If they are planning from the get-go to follow stable, that's great. | 15:32 |
| smcginnis | johnsom: OK, that makes sense. | 15:32 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add Mohammed Naser as vice chair https://review.openstack.org/607616 | 15:32 |
| smcginnis | I just don't know if we've ever asserted that before there has been evidence to assert on. | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | But I suppose we can take octavia's backports as evidence that stable policy is known and followed by the team. | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | we did that recently with a new oslo thing I think | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | and yeah, I think in that case we said the team managing the code knew how to follow the policy | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | OK, that makes sense. | 15:35 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Adding openstack/octavia-lib project https://review.openstack.org/604890 | 15:48 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: ensure the topic is set to a valid default string https://review.openstack.org/605159 | 15:48 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Stein TC Election Results https://review.openstack.org/605896 | 15:48 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add openstack/neutron-interconnection to neutron https://review.openstack.org/599428 | 15:48 |
| zaneb | would anyone disagree that the os-log-merger folks should at least talk to the Oslo team about hosting it before we could approve it as an independent project? | 16:04 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: show the modification time of each page individually https://review.openstack.org/607629 | 16:12 |
| smcginnis | zaneb: That would seem like a decent place for it to live. Not sure if we need to gate on that since the oslo team already owns a lot of different things, but would be good to see if they would be interested in this one. | 16:15 |
| zaneb | smcginnis: thanks. I went ahead and posted my comment to that effect | 16:16 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 16:17 |
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| dhellmann | zaneb , smcginnis : I'm reluctant to have Oslo turn into the project where we put all the things that seem too small to live on their own | 16:31 |
| dhellmann | os-log-merger doesn't sound like a library, for one thing | 16:32 |
| dhellmann | and it's not common to all of the other projects | 16:32 |
| dhellmann | so I don't think it fits the oslo team's mission | 16:32 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: understood, but I'm even more reluctant to turn OpenStack into that | 16:32 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I had some similar thoughts along the line of "surely we can find a home for this" | 16:32 |
| dhellmann | and the comment on the proposal about having a better name to allow a broader scope makes some sense | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | if it's a production tool, I wonder if one of the sigs wants to own it | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | "own" | 16:33 |
| zaneb | that's a good thought | 16:34 |
| ttx | maybe add to osops tooling | 16:34 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 16:35 |
| cdent | related projects that are probably going to need an owner: I'm going to get ownership bits on paste (pypi and bitbucket) in the next few days, but I'm hoping to make it not just me | 16:35 |
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| smcginnis | Chris "The Paste Man" Dent | 16:37 |
| cdent | Oh yeah. and WSME too. for my sins | 16:38 |
| njohnston | Question for the TC - in the Neutron CI subteam meeting yesterday, we were talking about our testing jobs, and the transition to ubuntu-bionic came up. I'd roped fungi into the discussion, and he pointed out that governance states that we should test on the latest LTS release that is available as of the start of the cycle, bionic in this case. | 16:46 |
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| njohnston | I was thinking about advising the neutron stadium projects to be aware of this and proactively start making progress towards it (perhaps once the python3-first backlog has all merged in) but I was wondering if there would be some guidance from the TC on the transition, especially as core zuul templates changeover to bionic. | 16:47 |
| fungi | yes, in previous cycles the infra team drove the migration of openstack project jobs to new platforms but with their new charge to support other communities besides openstack it would be best if the openstack project itself took up that work | 16:48 |
| smcginnis | We may need to better clarify what is all needed there and what the TC will now need to do with that change/ | 16:49 |
| fungi | in an ideal world it would be the openstack qa team who set the testing standards for official projects and worked with them to see that they were implemented | 16:49 |
| smcginnis | That makes a lot of sense to me. | 16:49 |
| persia | With the migration of many jobs to code repos, isn't it now required that openstack teams migrate their jobs? | 16:50 |
| fungi | yes, that's also a big part of it | 16:50 |
| fungi | the decentralization of job configuration puts driving those sorts of changes further outside the scope of infra team responsibilities (intentionally) | 16:51 |
| * persia wonders if it would be useful for OpenStack QA to own a repo with base jobs, slightly more advanced than those provided by the infrastructure hosting provider and slightly less complex than are used by any actual projects | 16:51 | |
| fungi | well, they _do_ control the repos which provide the devstack/tempest base jobs | 16:51 |
| fungi | snice those live in the devstack and tempest repos respectively | 16:51 |
| smcginnis | Aren't there some base platform image work that needs to be handled by infra before we can support certain versions? | 16:52 |
| smcginnis | Or can we always assume a new LTS release will be available? | 16:52 |
| fungi | in the past the infra team has made these platforms available while they're still in beta | 16:53 |
| fungi | we had bionic images a month or two before ubuntu released bionic | 16:53 |
| fungi | but for sure, if a project wants to say they test on specific versions of a platform they should not simply assume the infra team is going to make those available and should instead work to help make sure they are | 16:54 |
| smcginnis | So if the TC or the projects themselves will be handling this going forward, I think we just need to get written down the steps that will need to be taken for moving to a new LTS. | 16:56 |
| fungi | the more pressing question is, how do we spur projects on to switch any of their jobs from xenial to bionic before stein releases? | 16:56 |
| fungi | announcements i guess are a good statr | 16:57 |
| fungi | start | 16:57 |
| fungi | but is it also a de facto release goal? | 16:57 |
| smcginnis | Based on our documented expectation mentioned above, I guess so. | 16:57 |
| smcginnis | So projects control which python version jobs are run. How do we switch what LTS that runs on? And do they need to care more than just supporting the version? | 16:58 |
| fungi | most of them aren't overriding the inherited nodeset from their parent jobs | 16:59 |
| fungi | so presumably just updating the central versions of a lot of the more common jobs will get most of it done | 16:59 |
| njohnston | right so at some point I would expect that jobs in the openstack-zuul-jobs repo would be altered to specify bionic, or nodesets like 'base-minimal' would be rebuilt on a bionic base, and that is a point at which projects might see CI breakage | 17:00 |
| persia | A related question: if no longer infra, who should own openstack-zuul-jobs? | 17:00 |
| persia | Or is there a need for an openstack-infra with reduced scope, even if the existing infra team becomes a separate project with wider scope? | 17:01 |
| fungi | the idea is that there should be people in the openstack project who care about enforcing testing policy for openstack projects, and they should be the ones reviewing changes to th eopenstack-zuul-jobs repo | 17:01 |
| fungi | that group sort of already exists today in the form of the config-core reviewers | 17:02 |
| fungi | the people currently reviewing changes to project-config and openstack-zuul-jobs | 17:02 |
| clarkb | fungi: yes changing the default nodeset will "fix" this for 95% of cases I expect | 17:03 |
| clarkb | fungi: it will also break anything that doesn't work on brionic | 17:03 |
| fungi | as opposed to those reviewing changes to system-config and other configuration management and service deployment automation repositories. there is some overlap but it's a partly disjoin set already | 17:03 |
| fungi | er, disjoint | 17:04 |
| clarkb | the alternative is to do a more targeted piece by piece/job by job update | 17:04 |
| persia | clarkb: I suspect there's benefit to centralisation, just to reduce the total volume of work (the py3 stuff is a good example of how painful this can be) | 17:05 |
| clarkb | its worth noting that I don't think the infra team is wholesale saying we can't help we don't want this. It is more of a last time we did this everyone screamed at us and it isn't really even our responsibility. So please do it the way you would like to do it :) | 17:05 |
| persia | fungi: disjoint sets are good, although I wonder if there has been enough effort to help those sets associate appropriate identity ("Openstack" vs. "OpenDev"). There might be overlap, but "we" probably shouldn't regularly be an overlap. | 17:06 |
| fungi | and also, let's learn from last time. the infra team listened to the teams who pushed back saying "let us do this on our own schedule, we're not going to all be ready at the same time" so we did, and let teams transition piecemeal, which created all sorts of different challenges with integration testing | 17:06 |
| persia | clarkb: My apologies if anything I'm saying implies anyone on the infra team is less than an extremely friendly and helpful person willing to do much more work than they should and very much in need of help from everyone else. That was purely unintentional. | 17:07 |
| fungi | ultimately, we reached a release where trove was still testing on trusty while most other integrated services had moved to using xenial, and then trove got to struggle with xenial-only breakage in other projects and needing to backport all their xenial support ci work to their stable branch | 17:08 |
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| smcginnis | fungi, persia: As part of dhellmann's python3-first work, many projects are adding openstack-tox-py36 jobs. | 19:09 |
| smcginnis | That would appear to get us ubuntu-bionic coverage - http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/openstack-zuul-jobs/tree/zuul.d/jobs.yaml#n369 | 19:09 |
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| fungi | yes, though we need to also do integration test jobs | 19:10 |
| persia | smcginnis: Yes, although one might ask whether the project teams are intentionally testing bionic, or whether they are even aware they may be testing on both xenial and bionic (and the implications thereof). | 19:10 |
| fungi | and the python 2.7 jobs as well | 19:10 |
| persia | For bionic, it's not such an issue, because Infra is still providing lots of support. For F*, I'm less confident that everyone will automatically transition smoothly. | 19:11 |
| persia | (and I think it's important to care about this *now* so that when F* comes, nobody is f'd) | 19:12 |
| smcginnis | I agree. | 19:13 |
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