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| mnaser | tc-members: office hour for those who are around | 01:03 |
|---|---|---|
| mnaser | I’m in and out | 01:04 |
| fungi | oh, yep, i'm around | 01:13 |
| fungi | just... quiet ;) | 01:13 |
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| fungi | and i s'pose that's it for office hour today | 02:04 |
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| ttx | TheJulia: extra ATCs are defined in the TC charter https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/charter.html#voters-for-ptl-seats-apc | 09:19 |
| ttx | (but then others pointed to that, sorry, catching up on long backlog) | 09:23 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I'll review the governance summary asap | 09:28 |
| cdent | did another readthrough, looking good | 09:46 |
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| eumel8 | o/ | 09:57 |
| eumel8 | ttx, cdent: is there a room plan online for the PTG? | 09:58 |
| cdent | eumel8: are you after what projects will be in what room, or something simpler like a map of the rooms | 09:59 |
| eumel8 | cdent: found that for the last PTG: https://www.openstack.org/assets/ptg/Dublin-map.pdf | 10:00 |
| eumel8 | ok, it's more a venue map | 10:00 |
| cdent | yeah, as far as I'm aware the room choices are still in flux | 10:01 |
| eumel8 | cdent: maybe you can help out if you have further informations: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/597437/ | 10:07 |
| cdent | eumel8: I don't really have that info, ttx might when he returns | 10:07 |
| eumel8 | yeah, thx | 10:09 |
| ttx | eumel8: yes, apparently the web team plans to add it this afternoon | 10:23 |
| ttx | (their morning) | 10:23 |
| eumel8 | ttx: should I add you as a reviewer to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/597437/ or how we want to handle this? | 10:26 |
| dims | o/ | 10:26 |
| ttx | eumel8: I have a patch up for that already | 10:27 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/596765/ | 10:27 |
| eumel8 | ttx: ah! I checked Gerrit before but I have overseen this | 10:29 |
| ttx | dhellmann: for lines 146-148, I'd rather say "This ends up being rarely necessary, as in most cases, contributors more directly involved prefer to come to a consensual agreement rather than escalate the decision to another group." | 11:00 |
| ttx | dhellmann: otherwise I don't really like the early mention of core reviewer vote on policy decision. Since it's the first mention in the text of a decision process, it makes it look like it's the main one. I would either up-play the role of the PTL in previous lines or downplay the "core reviewers vote" thing | 11:04 |
| ttx | (line 45) | 11:04 |
| ttx | I would reorder the whole key people paragraph. | 11:06 |
| ttx | How much do you want me to mess up with your text ? | 11:06 |
| ttx | (I don't think you should lead with "decisions in openstack are made by APCs via direct democracy" since this is misleading at best. I can't find a single example where all APCs were directly polled on a decision | 11:11 |
| cdent | Hmmm. Misleading at best is true. I guess I was being insufficiently critical. | 11:14 |
| dhellmann | ttx: my impression is that most teams vote on their own internal policies, and that's what I was referring to with the "direct democracy" comment | 11:25 |
| dhellmann | I have a local copy of the text, so knock yourself out with edits | 11:25 |
| cdent | dhellmann: when you say "teams" do you mean "cores" or "contributors"? | 11:28 |
| dhellmann | well, that's a little fuzzy, isn't it | 11:35 |
| dhellmann | I guess I usually mean cores | 11:36 |
| cdent | dhellmann: yes, that's kind of the point. I do think that cores often vote, for some stuff. It sometimes happens that contributors vote, but it is less common | 11:37 |
| dhellmann | although I'd have to read through it again | 11:37 |
| dhellmann | are we always that strict that we don't listen to non-cores? | 11:37 |
| cdent | I think the issue being danced around here is that if the phrase "direct democracy" is used, it means voting by anyone who is an APC, and it probably isn't accurate | 11:38 |
| cdent | openstack is a representative democracy, not direct. I hadn't picked up on that before because I wasn't thinking that that level of detail was that relevant in terms of doing a compare and contrast with other options for python governance. But if we are evaluating the doc in terms of it being "the truth" then ttx is right | 11:40 |
| cdent | a non-core, non-TC APC has very little direct power | 11:40 |
| dhellmann | it depends on the decision | 11:40 |
| dhellmann | APCs do vote for PTL and TC, and those are "decisions" to be made in this context | 11:41 |
| cdent | yes, but that is the decision to choose their representation | 11:41 |
| dhellmann | policies within a team are made by the core members of that team. They don't "represent" anyone else, it's just that some contributors are not members of the team in that sense. | 11:41 |
| dhellmann | right, well, deciding how to pick representatives is one of the things the python-dev community is trying to figure out | 11:42 |
| dhellmann | so I'm trying to cover our leader selection processes, our policy making processes, and our technical decision making processes | 11:42 |
| dhellmann | an indirect democratic choice in an election would be to vote for a party, rather than a person, right? | 11:43 |
| dhellmann | I'm not trying to suggest that we all vote on every decision, just that for some decisions there is actually a potential for everyone to vote | 11:44 |
| cdent | "all vote on every decision" is what "direct democracy means" (every "citizen" goes to the square and debates and discusses and is obliged to vote). We don't have that. We do have plenty of opportunities for people who are identified as citizens to vote for certain things, just not _all_ things | 11:45 |
| ttx | right, I don't mind saying contributors decide, but "APCs use direct democracy" implies we have votes of APCs beyond PTL election | 11:46 |
| ttx | which, as a preamble to the whole thing, sounds a bit too much | 11:46 |
| dhellmann | so, APCs do not vote on team policies? | 11:47 |
| * ttx reorders to his linking | 11:47 | |
| dhellmann | that's news to me | 11:47 |
| * dhellmann goes to look at the mailing list logs for all of those kolla "vote" threads | 11:47 | |
| ttx | I'm pretty sure they don't use "APCs" or control those are individual members of the Foundation | 11:47 |
| ttx | and ISTR they have core vote only | 11:48 |
| ttx | and even if it was the case, Kolla is the only team doing that | 11:48 |
| dhellmann | I guess in that intro paragraph I was not making a distinction between core and APC. I suppose that could be clearer. | 11:48 |
| dhellmann | would it be fair to say that decisions are made by contributors, and the decisions you get to make depend on your level of contribution? | 11:49 |
| dhellmann | ttx: the oslo team also votes on policy, we just do it via the spec repo | 11:49 |
| dhellmann | I would be amazed to learn that we have any teams where the PTL is dictating policy without any form of consensus, even through an informal vote. Do we really have that? | 11:50 |
| ttx | I think that's more accurately reflected in the later paragraphs, where you cover decision making and PTls ratifying consensus | 11:50 |
| ttx | dhellmann: there is a difference between "gathering some form of consensus" and "direct democracy by a specific body of people" | 11:50 |
| dhellmann | I guess | 11:51 |
| cdent | dhellmann: I think you'll find that if nova were a direct democracy of _all_ contributors, it would be have much different. | 11:51 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'm not suggesting all teams do this well, just that some teams do | 11:52 |
| cdent | for the sake of the python world it is probably best that we represent the reality not the ideal? | 11:52 |
| cdent | there are lots of great things to learn and replicate from openstack governance, but there are also some warnings | 11:53 |
| cdent | (again, I was rather assuming that sort of stuff would come out in the evaluation of the pep, rather than in the creation of this document) | 11:53 |
| ttx | dhellmann: you also seem to avoid directly mentioning that the PTL has final say over project matters -- is that something you'd rather not insist on in the context of that document ? | 11:54 |
| dhellmann | I just added that | 11:54 |
| dhellmann | line 44 | 11:54 |
| ttx | ok, just read it | 11:54 |
| dhellmann | I realized I left it out as I was rereading | 11:54 |
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| ttx | ok, I think it strikes the right balance now... It's just hard to capture rules and practice in a way that conveys how things end up being done | 12:06 |
| ttx | dhellmann: did you want to also link to https://www.openstack.org/legal/technical-committee-member-policy/ or that would be too much detail ? | 12:09 |
| dhellmann | oh, yeah, linking to that is a good idea | 12:10 |
| ttx | It's easy to overlook if you only point to article IV | 12:10 |
| ttx | recently Monty was saying the TC could just self-decide to stay in power forever, due to article IV, but we are constrained by that member policy too | 12:10 |
| ttx | I'll add it | 12:11 |
| dhellmann | oh, I added it on line 63 | 12:12 |
| * dhellmann steps away to make breakfast | 12:14 | |
| ttx | see my try on line 10 and pick between the two :) | 12:14 |
| dhellmann | ttx; yours looks good | 12:21 |
| dhellmann | ok, the PR is in https://github.com/python/peps/pull/766 if anyone wants to follow the upstream review | 12:34 |
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| dims | o/ | 12:39 |
| * dims reads scrollback | 12:39 | |
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| cdent | thanks dhellmann | 12:42 |
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| ttx | zaneb: to restart discussion on the "dependency" question... I was thinking a ML thread could help. I started to dump some context/notes at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/NnJSwih4kD, if you want to play | 14:28 |
| ttx | I'm not even sure what the current state of the interdependency is, tbh | 14:28 |
| ttx | between may use, should use and must use | 14:29 |
| ttx | That's open to others interested in TC tech vision of course | 14:29 |
| zaneb | ttx: thanks! will take a look after the heat meeting | 14:30 |
| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Move mistral-extra under mistral repos https://review.openstack.org/597551 | 14:41 |
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| zaneb | ttx: I don't know that we're going to be able to come up with a single answer for every possible combination of dependency | 15:22 |
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| ttx | zaneb: I agree that if a single simple answer could work we probably would have expressed it already | 15:41 |
| ttx | also the answer really depends on how much widely deployed the dependency really is. It's one thing to depend on Glance, another to depend on Zaqar | 15:42 |
| zaneb | yes, there's a chicken-and-egg problem | 15:45 |
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| jaypipes | ttx, cdent, zaneb: just saw Jimmy's berlin summit email. What is "OpenStack One Platform"? | 16:55 |
| jaypipes | ttx, cdent, zaneb: was that supposed to be an example proposed session or is there actually something called OpenStack One Platform? | 16:56 |
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| zaneb | I have never heard that term before | 16:56 |
| cdent | oh dear god, is there yet another surprise | 16:57 |
| zaneb | I think it's just an example | 16:57 |
| * cdent schwews | 16:58 | |
| zaneb | I think he might be thinking of the Vm/bare-metal working group there? | 16:58 |
| jroll | if only there was a means to ask jimmy directly :P | 16:58 |
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| cdent | jroll: you know damn well that speculating is the official methodology of openstack | 16:59 |
| jroll | true | 17:00 |
| jroll | cdent: followed by a multiple paragraph email asking why we're doing this and why it's wrong | 17:00 |
| jaypipes | jroll: so true. | 17:00 |
| * dtroyer tunes in to the discussion meta-discussion :) | 17:01 | |
| cdent | It does look like an example, but I think maybe we should build it. | 17:01 |
| notmyname | cdent: but first, let's figure out "what is openstack" and make any needed changes to our governance structures | 17:02 |
| dims | jaypipes : seems to be just an "Examples of typical sessions" | 17:08 |
| jaypipes | dims: ack. you never know... | 17:10 |
| * dims files in folder marked "wishes that were true" | 17:11 | |
| cdent | notmyname: no, no: the way it works is you do all the stuff and then later you get told "that's not openstack and doesn't fit in governance" so flip some tables, but then a while later people say "actually, that's a good idea we'll make an exception" so it becomes a thing. meanwhile people who tried to follow the process have accomplished nothing. | 17:12 |
| cdent | and also flip tables | 17:13 |
| notmyname | lol | 17:14 |
| notmyname | I surely have *no idea* what you mean ;-) | 17:15 |
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| fungi | also, sometimes it's just fun to flip some tables | 17:56 |
| fungi | and good exercise too | 17:56 |
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| * dtroyer knows where the chairs with a view are located _just_ _above_ where the tables are at the Renaissance… | 17:57 | |
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| jbryce | jaypipes: perhaps notice that the line starts with "e.g."? | 18:02 |
| jbryce | latin abbreviation of "for example" | 18:02 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: yes, I'm familiar with e.g. thx. | 18:03 |
| fungi | e.g. "OpenStack: Many Platforms, One Voice" | 18:03 |
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| jbryce | also as dims points out, the line before says "Examples of typical sessions" | 18:05 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: I was just wondering if this was just Jimmy throwing out examples or whether this was a premonition. | 18:06 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: after all, the summits have now become the place to announce such things upon the world. | 18:07 |
| notmyname | jaypipes: hasn't it been that way since 2010? | 18:07 |
| jaypipes | notmyname: we didn't have conferences like this in 2010. we had working events -- aka the design summits. | 18:08 |
| * jroll disappears for an hour, comes back to see more speculating, sends an email | 18:09 | |
| jbryce | notmyname: i think we first started using the "one platform" phrasing in 2015 | 18:09 |
| jbryce | but yes probably a goal since before that | 18:09 |
| TheJulia | jroll: thanks! | 18:15 |
| * persia wonders whether the first big commercial summit with expo was Folsom or Grizzly | 18:17 | |
| TheJulia | to be explicit, e.g. stands for "exempili gratia" in latin, which does indicate that it is for example. | 18:17 |
| jamesmcarthur | To be fair, the examples are from copies of older Forum emails. I believe dating back to Boston. | 18:19 |
| persia | (with a side implication that the example in question was selected with the audience in mind, as a specific example relevant to them) | 18:19 |
| jamesmcarthur | Probably time for an update, but definitely not me pushing a larger agenda. | 18:19 |
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| dtroyer | persia: my recollection would be Grizzly was the first with booths as we know them today, IIRC there were some tables set up in SF around the hotel | 18:19 |
| TheJulia | :) | 18:19 |
| * TheJulia amuses at the idea of having a forum session in latin | 18:20 | |
| persia | dtroyer: Your memory matches mine, but what I don't know is whether the Folsom tables were "sponsor booths" or just some space where contributing orgs could put out tables to hand out swag. | 18:20 |
| jroll | I don't mind the booths, I just don't like half the talks being advertisements | 18:21 |
| dtroyer | good point, the only one I remember clearly was the guys with the PandaBoards, and I don't even remember who that was, just that Jesse said I could buy some to get DevStack on them :) | 18:21 |
| jaypipes | jamesmcarthur: for the record, I wasn't implying you were "pushing a formal agenda". I was wondering if this "OpenStack One Platform" was somewhat of a teaser. | 18:22 |
| jamesmcarthur | in no way whatsoever | 18:22 |
| jaypipes | jroll: half? | 18:22 |
| persia | jroll: it's a tricky balance between having half the talks be advertisements and having two separate colocated events (Kilo being an extreme example). | 18:22 |
| jamesmcarthur | literally just made up examples from a year and a half ago | 18:22 |
| jbryce | san jose (diablo) was the first with a sponsor; boston #1 (essex) had multiple sponsors with different levels that had tables and headline sponsors had keynotes; SF (folsom) had more sponsors in the halls as a makeshift expo and then it went from there | 18:22 |
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| persia | jbryce: Thank you for the data. At this point, there's a bit of an information horizon around the time of the foundation foundation. | 18:23 |
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| jbryce | jroll: i'm curious when you categorize half the talks as advertisements if you mean keynotes, community selected breakout sessions, sponsored breakout sessions (which are marked as sponsored) or all of the above? | 18:31 |
| TheJulia | In my opinion, It is easy for someone to shift a talk into an advertisement or pitch because the basis that the time slot and scheduling was granted on is a idea at a prior point in time to the presentation and it is then expected that the presenter will present on that subject to which they wrote an abstract. If they do something different on stage, there is no real way to prevent that. All the selection committee can | 18:31 |
| TheJulia | really do is try and pick the best talks and hope. | 18:31 |
| TheJulia | unrelated to current discussions, YXL or BER for etherpads? :) | 18:32 |
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| jaypipes | jbryce: talks that exclusively push one particular technology (typically networking or storage hardware) are what I consider to be advertisements. | 18:36 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: there are plenty of examples of these kinds of talks. | 18:36 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: and it goes to show the changing nature of the *audience* of the summits. where the audience used to be super technical and developer focused -- because the sessions were working discussions on implementation ideas -- the summit talks have shifted their focus to the less technical and more sales/purchaser audience. | 18:38 |
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| jaypipes | jbryce: and because the summits are now expensive conferences to attend, many speakers come from companies that are looking to recoup the costs of attendance by gaining new customers. The speakers apply internally to go to the conference and know that if they present, there's a much better chance they can go. And the company's will approve a marketing talk much easier than a talk that doesn't promote the company's own tech at the expense of others. | 18:40 |
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| jaypipes | jbryce: of course, none of this is new. it's been going on for decades, sadly. | 18:43 |
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| TheJulia | And happens even at small conferences | 18:43 |
| smcginnis | TheJulia: Isn't YXL an airport in Canada? | 18:43 |
| TheJulia | err, TXL | 18:43 |
| jbryce | jaypipes: i think there's been a shift in the audience and talks, but i think it's actually more operator focused not sales/purchaser focused | 18:44 |
| TheJulia | BER is brandenburg apparently | 18:44 |
| * TheJulia goes with that | 18:44 | |
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| smcginnis | Yeah, that's probably the more popular one. | 18:44 |
| smcginnis | Hmm, looks like from here I would be going in to TXL. | 18:45 |
| jbryce | jaypipes: have you gone through the schedule for berlin? not a lot of single technology talks that i see. not a lot of dev implementation talks like at earlier design summits, but those were also not usually presentations either | 18:45 |
| smcginnis | BER is probably easier to remember though. | 18:45 |
| dhellmann | maybe we should just say "berlin" or even "stein" instead of the airport code | 18:45 |
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| TheJulia | likely good... but I think the airport code trend has already started based on the forum idea links | 18:46 |
| dhellmann | be the trend-breaker you want to see in the world | 18:46 |
| smcginnis | :) | 18:46 |
| TheJulia | The dev focused talks really map well to the forum, but the process is different, less visible/known... and consists of a different group of people looking at it. | 18:47 |
| smcginnis | Governance proposal on proper etherpad naming? :P | 18:47 |
| dhellmann | -2 | 18:47 |
| persia | I think strong use of "stein" in etherpads will serve us well. | 18:47 |
| persia | Consider that we've repeated multiple cities at this point, but have yet to repeat a codename. | 18:47 |
| smcginnis | Kinda the whole point of having named releases really. | 18:48 |
| jroll | I seem to remember using cycle names in ptg/summit etherpads in the past | 18:48 |
| TheJulia | I think sales focused talks are always going to get into a main conference talk selection track because they are focusing on their audience to plant the seed that develops into a sale. Of course, the approach will always vary. | 18:48 |
| persia | We did indeed. I had the impressoin that we know tend to know where we are meeting in advance of what we are calling a release, whereas we didn't before. I might be mistaken, and I might be talking about my knowledge rather than community knowledge. | 18:49 |
| TheJulia | +2 to the -2 on a governance proposal | 18:49 |
| jbryce | TheJulia: agree that some always slip in, but if half of them are that way, that seems too high and like something somewhere isn't working about the process | 18:50 |
| jroll | jbryce: dislaimer: I stopped paying attention to talks around... ocata? but I remember seeing lots of talks about solving foo problem with openstack project bar, with no (or negative) indication about the tech being upstreamed. this includes all of the categories you mentioned. | 18:50 |
| jroll | hopefully it's better now | 18:50 |
| persia | I think the main track for the expo side of things should *only* be commercially driven talks. I believe there is active negative value in having technical talks as part of that, as I would prefer anyone considering technical content to participate in Forum and/or otherwise contribute to OpenStack. | 18:50 |
| jroll | jbryce: also, it isn't always clear that the talk was an advertisement from the title or summary, it comes out in the presentation | 18:51 |
| * cdent hands persia today's "Market Capitalist" award | 18:51 | |
| * persia rolls a 7, and moves the top hat appropriately | 18:51 | |
| jbryce | and my question was also because i have heard people talk about keynotes as "sponsor keynotes" anytime they are given by a corporate entity when most of those are actually meant to feature user organizations (who happen to often be corporate entities) | 18:52 |
| TheJulia | jbryce: I feel like there is not an explicit focus on keeping the sales talks out or to a minimum when we go through that process. Of course, doing such seems like an easy way to also prevent all, because a balance is necessary. | 18:52 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: if I take out all the sessions on NFV and edge, I'm left with about 6 sessions that interest me. | 18:52 |
| dhellmann | can anyone tell me if the free passes to the summit that one gets by attending the PTG are transferrable? | 18:52 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: and considering I can watch the videos of those sessions that I find interesting afterwards, I don't think spending thousands to go overseas for a week in an expensive hotel is worth my time. | 18:53 |
| * TheJulia gets out the replicator for the top hat | 18:53 | |
| jroll | dhellmann: I seem to recall them being non-transferrable, but I don't have a source | 18:54 |
| TheJulia | jroll's impression is mine as well | 18:54 |
| dhellmann | I know the ATC discounts are not, but apparently the AUC discounts *are* so I wonder about the PTG | 18:54 |
| persia | I suspect it depends on how it is argued, when the transfer is attempted, and whether there are extenuating circumstances. | 18:54 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: anyway, look, the summits are for some people. just not me. I'm happily spending a thousand bucks to attend the PTG and get some work done there. I just don't see value in the mega-events any more. sorry | 18:55 |
| jbryce | jaypipes: that's fair. i was more asking about your statement regarding a shift to non-technical sales talks | 18:55 |
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| jaypipes | jbryce: understood. https://www.openstack.org/summit/berlin-2018/summit-schedule/events/22700/securing-nfv is an example of the kind of talk that is masquerading as a technical talk that will end up being an advertisement for Cisco. | 18:57 |
| * persia is also curious about the "shift", having had a static opinion about the expo tracks since Grizzly summit | 18:57 | |
| TheJulia | jaypipes: I kind of see the mega event as like the engine driving forward requirements gathering. It is just easy to forget that when a company is focused on the sales aspect. | 18:57 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: you now... e.g. | 18:57 |
| jaypipes | "you know... e.g." that was supposed to say... | 18:57 |
| jroll | jaypipes: great example, thanks | 18:58 |
| persia | jaypipes: Indeed. Perfect example. Was it a tech presentation, the speaker would likely claim association with fd.io (the folk responsible for networking-vpp), rather than employer. | 18:59 |
| mriedem | TheJulia: who is submitting requirements from the expo / talks side of things when they are manning a booth or giving talks or meeting with customers? | 18:59 |
| TheJulia | mriedem: I mean attendence, not from the expo/talk side. Kind of like hallway track, but we call it the forum as well. | 19:00 |
| mriedem | there was a "placement" talk in YVR from a research person mucking with nova scheduler from mitaka....totally confusing | 19:00 |
| dansmith | mriedem: dude hush, that was my all-time favorite session | 19:00 |
| mriedem | i mean, it was fun | 19:00 |
| * TheJulia can only wonder what took place | 19:00 | |
| jbryce | jaypipes jroll: it's an interesting example. i'm going to flag it and see how it turns out. it's also one of hundred of sessions, and i agree that some will definitely get through no matter what. as i said, if it's half though, that seems like a big problem | 19:01 |
| mriedem | like, passing a stone fun | 19:01 |
| dansmith | I'm hoping the sequel presents "What's new in Windows 98" | 19:01 |
| mriedem | my guess is any talk that has >1 person from the same company is mostly advertising with some community stuff spinkled on top | 19:02 |
| jbryce | persia: in terms of the association with an employer instead of a project, that's just a speaker bio form field that asks for their employer which they might have answered the same way | 19:02 |
| persia | Fair enough. | 19:02 |
| jroll | jbryce: thanks. like I said, my experiences are roughly kilo-ocata timeframe, so grains of salt and such. | 19:02 |
| mriedem | "live migrations are cool, but messy, but our product fixes these problems....but we don't contribute upstream so..." | 19:02 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: definitely not half, no. | 19:02 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: if I've said that in the past, it was hyperbole. | 19:02 |
| jroll | yeah, I'm not sure if it was actually half, just felt like it | 19:03 |
| jroll | maybe I'm bad at picking talks to attend :) | 19:03 |
| mriedem | i do what jaypipes said he does, select what i'd want to watch later and watch them on youtube later | 19:04 |
| mriedem | unless it's like the big cern cells v2 talk in YVR | 19:04 |
| jaypipes | mriedem: but you also actually go to the summits. :) | 19:04 |
| mriedem | or lyarwood selling RHOSP for FFU :) | 19:04 |
| smcginnis | i do what jaypipes said he does, select what i'd want to watch later and forget to watch them later | 19:04 |
| jaypipes | smcginnis: lol | 19:04 |
| mriedem | jaypipes: i go to the summits so i can get the requirements from the customers to deliver to the engineers b/c i have people skillz | 19:04 |
| smcginnis | mriedem: You're a people person dammit! | 19:05 |
| TheJulia | You will people! or you will people! | 19:05 |
| jbryce | mriedem: do you actually deliver the requirements to the engineers? | 19:06 |
| * TheJulia feels like playing office space | 19:06 | |
| mriedem | of course! | 19:07 |
| mriedem | "srsly guyz, bfv + volume type plz" | 19:07 |
| jaypipes | mriedem: Well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people? | 19:07 |
| mriedem | classic | 19:07 |
| TheJulia | My other half asked me if she could put a jump to conclusions game on the floor in the dining room area... | 19:07 |
| * jroll takes jaypipes' stapler | 19:07 | |
| * TheJulia puts a plushy shark next to the red swingline in order to guard it | 19:08 | |
| * jaypipes saunters off, sufficiently pleased with the tangential conversation he has spawned. | 19:08 | |
| jbryce | jaypipes: it was jroll that said half, not you. and i wasn't trying to dispute the fraction, just trying to figure out if there was data behind it or if it is more the feeling one gets. because if it's truly half, then that would suck | 19:08 |
| * TheJulia has gotten some good laughs and now resumes etherpading | 19:08 | |
| jroll | jbryce: definitely feeling, not data | 19:09 |
| jbryce | i also don't get to go to a lot of sessions in person, but i do watch recordings and usually find some pretty interesting ones. trying to figure out if there's a big hole in the process that i have been missing or if maybe we should do a better job of highlighting the kinds of talks you would find interesting | 19:09 |
| persia | jbryce: I suspect there is a disconnect between what folk in this channel would find interesting and general summit attendees would find interesting. | 19:10 |
| cdent | jbryce: figuring out ways to highlight a sort "hard tech" thread through the presentations might be good | 19:10 |
| jaypipes | jbryce: well, I also recognize the types of talks I would find interesting would bore the living crap out of most conference attendees. | 19:10 |
| * jaypipes dons cap of self-awareness | 19:10 | |
| jbryce | it's also something that some of the staff, (perhaps ironically since this conversation kind of started with his email) including jimmy, have been working on improving the last couple of summits | 19:11 |
| persia | Also, lots of these things are difficult. We can't have "what is coming next in foo" sessions, because we don't generally have commitments that let us promise in advance. We can have "how to do X" sessions, but those are mostly interesting for folk who don't use OpenStack (rather than our users). | 19:11 |
| mriedem | "what is coming next" is in the project updates | 19:12 |
| TheJulia | But even that can only be a "guess" | 19:12 |
| mriedem | sure | 19:12 |
| jbryce | also on the original topic of the conversation, the only newer project things we're planning to talk about right now are airship and starlingx and how their communities are forming up | 19:15 |
| persia | mriedem: My point is that there is little value to attending. For folk who actually care what is happening, they need to track the project development. For folk that don't care, they don't really need to know. | 19:15 |
| smcginnis | jbryce: Thanks, that's good to know. | 19:15 |
| TheJulia | Perhaps there should be focus on the user from a talk standpoint, I'm just not sure how to build traction for that because we do have a certain momentum. I also feel like the user focused conferences, the small regional ones are the ones that best for users as they are easier to access, and come with a local variety and context. | 19:16 |
| persia | mriedem: If the intent is to have high-quality, useful, technical talks for some audience, then we should think about that audience, and how OpenStack differs from classic products. | 19:16 |
| persia | TheJulia: I think the key point is that for many users it is terribly expensive to attend. When I speak with operators, they generally only attend if they expect to participate in Forum or have side meetings with vendors. When I speak to cloud-app developers, they generally don't see the point of attending: they prefer local events. I do not claim to speak to representative samples of either of these groups. | 19:17 |
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| TheJulia | persia: My perception is the same. I also think the openstack community as a whole during the peak of the hype cycle burned out the smaller local conferences on the edge of our echosystem where it is key to present to those cloud-app developers. | 19:19 |
| persia | Dunno. I know some folk who are still happily running local meetups, some explicitly OpenStack related, and some broader (but with regular OpenStack content). | 19:20 |
| persia | Still, that doesn't help solve the "what should be presented at Expo" problem. | 19:21 |
| TheJulia | true | 19:21 |
| TheJulia | which reminds me of something completely unrelated | 19:21 |
| persia | That I don't believe that any direct users of upstream code attend those talks suggests that I shouldn't believe that they should provide key technical content for users. I could be wrong about the premise. | 19:22 |
| * TheJulia glares at meetup.com | 19:22 | |
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| cdent | dhellmann: in the ongoing collection of blog posts about governance and collaboration, did you see: https://twitter.com/anticdent/status/1032716886201524229 | 19:27 |
| dhellmann | I haven't looked at twitter in 4-5 weeks, so no | 19:27 |
| cdent | the reference blog post is good (not just because of the association) | 19:28 |
| dhellmann | but it is now in my reading queue | 19:28 |
| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/governance master: Retire some infra repositories - step 4 https://review.openstack.org/597639 | 19:30 |
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| TheJulia | when did meetup become a subscription only service? | 19:31 |
| dhellmann | TheJulia : you mean requiring organizers to pay? a few years ago, I think. | 19:32 |
| dhellmann | only the organizer has to pay, and the rate depends on the number of groups and their size, IIRC | 19:32 |
| TheJulia | Yeah, I'm trying to create a meetup in the Palm Springs area, and just hit that page | 19:32 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 19:32 |
| dhellmann | if it's an openstack meetup, one of the ambassadors may be able to help | 19:33 |
| TheJulia | Likely explains why I watched the ABQ OpenStack meetup just kind of disappear. | 19:33 |
| smcginnis | TheJulia: If it's an OpenStack one, get in touch with Ashlee. | 19:33 |
| jbryce | (or even if it's about openstack + open infrastructure) | 19:36 |
| TheJulia | (I was actually thinking more open infrastructure... but yeah) | 19:36 |
| cdent | Do you suppose there is a kind of gene therapy for people who are missing the "meetup" gene. I feel like it is quite the limitation for me. | 19:42 |
| persia | cdent: How do you mean? | 19:43 |
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| persia | (If you're talking about how some folk prefer to sit in mountain lairs, and other folk like to join public dances in the town square, then yes, there is a fair amount in the literature. If you mean something else, I'm curious) | 19:43 |
| cdent | persia: I don't enjoy attending conferences or meetups nor organizing either but I'm quite conscious that the activities are useful professionally on many dimensions. So I was making a joke about how some people do, that it is a gene, and maybe I can be injected with some of that stuff (so that I don't have to do the actual practice of "becoming" (because I'm something akin to but not exactly "lazy")). | 19:45 |
| persia | Oh, doesn't require gene therapy. There exists literature showing that a wide array of compounds can push people towards either the mountain-lair end or the public-dance end of the spectrum. Some of those can be generated by humans, often depending on diet, exercise regime, and light levels/schedule. | 19:47 |
| cdent | "diet, exercise regime, and light levels/schedule" does not align with "lazy" | 19:48 |
| * cdent is not being serious about this issue | 19:48 | |
| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/governance master: Retire some infra repositories - step 4 https://review.openstack.org/597639 | 19:48 |
| smcginnis | Hah, I do them because I recognize the value, but it is an effort. | 19:49 |
| smcginnis | I would really much rather stay in a mountain lair. | 19:49 |
| cdent | I suspect if I didn't live far away from most things I might be able to generate some kind of motivation, but as things are the cost/benefit is very high. | 19:51 |
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| smcginnis | It does help when they aren't hours away. | 19:51 |
| persia | cdent: Fair enough. Personally, for "light levels", I got a device that lets me program certain frequencies for certain times. Now I don't think about it at all, but receive different lighting than I did previously. | 19:51 |
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| * lbragstad is a big fan of his bat cave | 19:58 | |
| fungi | me too, but christine keeps telling me to turn down the music | 20:08 |
| mriedem | re: the earlier summit discussion, i find that walking on our treadmill is boring b/c i'm staring at a wall in our basement - but post-summit i watch tagged videos while doing the boring thing | 20:13 |
| mriedem | ma wife does note a difference in my energy levels and attitude | 20:14 |
| mriedem | "you're 10% less troll now!" | 20:14 |
| jamesmcarthur | dhellmann: technically all of the codes are transferable. It's not something we generally advertise, but we're trying to encourage people to use the codes to encourage involvement. | 20:15 |
| mriedem | she also has natural light lamps stashed all over the place b/c she's a nurse and apparently that's a job where you're not allowed to have normal sleep patterns | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | jamesmcarthur : yeah, we have a few folks who will be at the ptg and not the summit, so we're trying to economize where allowed | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | mriedem : 10%, wow | 20:17 |
| mriedem | near record levels | 20:18 |
| mriedem | 25% after https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4a9KApRUks | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | nice catch | 20:19 |
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| jamesmcarthur | dhellmann: understood :) hope it helps getting more folks there. | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 20:22 |
| fungi | actual light is for suckers. i work under a bath of cancer-inducing blacklights | 20:22 |
| lbragstad | lol - i can attest, i moved my downstairs after finishing enough of the basement and realize how different it was working in a room without windows... i dubbed it the "pit of misery" for a week | 20:24 |
| lbragstad | my office* | 20:25 |
| * smcginnis likes his glass block basement office window | 20:25 | |
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| TheJulia | My other half decided that I have to have my desk towards the window because she has remarked that facing a wall she can actually tell a difference in my mood. :( | 20:45 |
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| fungi | my treadmill looks out a window and mostly has a view of the water. my desk on the other hand... a view of large monitors | 23:21 |
| fungi | if nothing else, it's a good incentive for me to get on the treadmill regularly. it's in the same room anyway | 23:22 |
| fungi | for starters, my "desk" is really just a repurposed adjustible-height medical equipment stand built for wheeling around monitors, with only enough horizontal space for a keyboard and trackball | 23:29 |
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