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| * ttx tries to catch up with backlog | 07:37 | |
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| ttx | wow, that was something. | 08:10 |
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| ttx | My 2c: first I think it's critical that the people working on the code have control over its destiny, that is how everything is organized in OpenStack. So if the placement group is not the same as the nova group (and it is different, since the trust rings are different) , I think it should have its own team | 08:12 |
| ttx | That said, placement also needs to ensure its first and foremost customer (nova) is satisfied, so it should take a base feature list and red lines from nova. That can happen by delaying the extraction (as melwitt suggested) or more under a contract that the TC would ensure is filled | 08:14 |
| ttx | Otherwise we risk extracting a thing that nobody uses / duplication of code etc | 08:14 |
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| cdent | ttx, yeah, you missed a very interesting time | 08:37 |
| cdent | I think it is far better to have the stuff surfaced then lurking | 08:37 |
| cdent | ttx that this concern [t 1r0A] is present is doubly concerning | 08:38 |
| purplerbot | <ttx> That said, placement also needs to ensure its first and foremost customer (nova) is satisfied, so it should take a base feature list and red lines from nova. That can happen by delaying the extraction (as melwitt suggested) or more under a contract that the TC would ensure is filled [2018-08-21 08:14:28.108695] [n 1r0A] | 08:38 |
| cdent | given that if those things have been lurking all this time, yet people have still continued to strive to make placement (and nova) good, the commitment must be especially strong | 08:39 |
| ttx | It's part of the TC role as the overarching governance body to ensure coordination and solve disputes between groups of people working on pieces (a.k.a. project teams) | 08:42 |
| ttx | So I think I'm leaning toward supporting a team split (to solve the elephant) and then work at TC level to watch/ensure the common goals are met | 08:43 |
| ttx | which I have no doubt they will really, but if trust is not there from the other side, the TC can help | 08:43 |
| ttx | Still need to catch up on the ML thread | 08:45 |
| ttx | tc-members assemble for office hour | 09:01 |
| * cdent waves | 09:01 | |
| cmurphy | hiya | 09:01 |
| cdent | there's a fair bit of good followup from matt in the email thread, he continues his trend of surfacing the hidding | 09:01 |
| ttx | well I for one am thankful for the surfacing. it's hard to discuss the topic if everybody is just hiding an elephant | 09:02 |
| cdent | yes | 09:02 |
| ttx | although it's like a fracture reduction, it hurts when it happens | 09:03 |
| ttx | I'm reading the followup | 09:03 |
| ttx | looks like splitting the repo is a good first step while we work to solve the trust issue there | 09:08 |
| lbragstad | is it just me or does zun have nearly the same requirements of placement as nova does (as opposed to services that are just reporting information to placement)? | 09:10 |
| * cmurphy hands lbragstad some coffee | 09:11 | |
| lbragstad | cheers :) | 09:11 |
| cdent | lbragstad: that was my read too | 09:20 |
| cdent | with the complexity that they ideally want to share resources on the same host | 09:20 |
| cdent | which is placement can do | 09:20 |
| cdent | sorry that was two thought: which is what placement is designed for / which placement can do | 09:21 |
| evrardjp | That's what makes sense to me (with no knowledge of the code though) | 09:22 |
| lbragstad | has the TC ever had to solve something like #3 before? http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-August/133559.html | 09:30 |
| cdent | that's a good question. that it is considered a problem is weird (see the message I just sent on the thread: we're supposed to be disagreeing some of the time) | 09:31 |
| ttx | the closest would be the magnum/Zun conflict | 09:32 |
| ttx | (in recent history) | 09:32 |
| cdent | ttx are you talking generally or specific abourt issue #3? | 09:33 |
| ttx | #3 | 09:33 |
| ttx | although in that case the fear of having the TC step in was sufficient for them to work out their issues and decide to split | 09:34 |
| ttx | To switch topics, we should confirm post-lunch talks this week, so please have a look at proposed strawman at bottom of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PTG4-postlunch | 09:35 |
| ttx | Trying to fit everythign on days people can do them | 09:35 |
| * cmurphy looks forward to the email etiquette topic | 09:36 | |
| ttx | crosspost bad. toppost bad | 09:37 |
| cmurphy | htmlonly bad | 09:37 |
| ttx | have to doublecheck if diablo_rojo actually knows rockyg threw her under the bus | 09:37 |
| cdent | ttx that schedule seems reasonable to me | 09:37 |
| ttx | (for Storyboard talk) | 09:38 |
| ttx | leaves some room on Friday for last-minute $stuff | 09:38 |
| ttx | also makes sure everyone sees the Tech vision statement | 09:38 |
| ttx | (by placing it on Wed) | 09:39 |
| cdent | i rather think dhellmann's idea of a full day battle royale could be fun | 09:39 |
| lbragstad | the third bit seems specific to not only building trust, but making sure things evolve and progress is made (the biggest fear so far), is there a way to "timebox" design things? has that ever been done before outside of something like the specs process? | 09:39 |
| ttx | cdent: consensus through shrinking maps ? | 09:40 |
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| * lbragstad is specifically curious because keystone has gone through similar drawn-out design discussions that last _releases_ | 09:42 | |
| evrardjp | cdent: taking the popcorn | 09:42 |
| ttx | tc-members: please check strawman agenda at end of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PTG4-postlunch -- there is room for everything, we just need to check that we WANT to have each of those. We could keep empty slots | 09:42 |
| * ttx should check if there was anything planned for Dublin that we could not do that are still relevant | 09:43 | |
| cdent | lbragstad: yeah, placement stuff never goes more than a few days, which is part of why I find the concern being expressed difficult to understand. placement velocity is insane | 09:43 |
| cmurphy | those all look like good topics to me | 09:43 |
| ttx | ok, the one we could not do was around release management, and smcginnis re-proposed it | 09:44 |
| cdent | lbragstad: it does sometimes look like logjams but it breaks up in an eventually good way. I think the issue is more what I point out at the end of my message: the people doing the arguing and resisting are not the "right" people and that throws some people off | 09:44 |
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| dtantsur | morning folks! Do you happen to know if people who attended either Dublin or Denver PTG will get free passes to the summit (like it used to be previously)? It's not obvious so far. | 10:26 |
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| dtantsur | ttx: if you know ^^ | 10:26 |
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| ttx | yes, Denver attendees will get Berlin summit passes | 10:29 |
| ttx | You have to attend the event though, registering is not enough | 10:29 |
| dtantsur | ttx: what about Dublin attendees? | 11:01 |
| ttx | hmm, I'll have to ask.. fungi probably knows | 11:02 |
| dtantsur | previously it was two last PTGs. I highly count it since I cannot go to Denver.. | 11:06 |
| EmilienM | what a pleasant backlog to read (sarcastic) | 11:12 |
| EmilienM | (hi) | 11:13 |
| openstackgerrit | lei zhang proposed openstack/constellations master: Clean up .gitignore references to personal tools https://review.openstack.org/592259 | 11:13 |
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| evrardjp | talking about Berlin, is there room for Project Updates/Onboardings? I didn't see a call for that (yet?) | 12:02 |
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| mnaser | evrardjp: i go tthe update for that, there will be one :p | 12:39 |
| mnaser | s/update/email/ | 12:39 |
| mnaser | i mentioned we're going to be having both, you're welcome to host/run it if that's something you want to do :) | 12:40 |
| evrardjp | let's discuss that on the OSA channel :) | 12:40 |
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| fungi | dtantsur: ttx: yes, see the e-mail i sent with the code contributor discount code: "if you attended the February Dublin PTG or plan to attend the September Denver PTG, then you will receive a complimentary Full Access Pass. Those codes will be sent out late September." | 13:34 |
| fungi | that was the text provided to me by the summit event organizers, so i assume it's correct | 13:34 |
| dtantsur | fungi: oh, so you're saying I was supposed to read that email to the end? :D | 13:35 |
| fungi | heh | 13:35 |
| dtantsur | thank you fungi, my bad | 13:35 |
| fungi | np | 13:35 |
| fungi | if i didn't have to proofread those, i probably wouldn't have read the whole thing either ;) | 13:35 |
| fungi | evrardjp: yeah, the project update and onboarding sessions were determined by diablo_rojo sending a form link to ptls | 13:37 |
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| fungi | per the lunch session straw-man schedule, the technical vision statement presentation is a "smaller talk?" | 13:37 |
| fungi | given the amount of discussion so far on the ml and in the review, i anticipated we'd want time for q&a | 13:38 |
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| smcginnis | I can give up the release management time so we can have more time for the technical vision. | 13:44 |
| smcginnis | It's useful info I think, but I can just write a blog post and/or record a video or something. | 13:44 |
| cdent | i'm not sure 10 minutes over 5 minutes is sufficient. Either 5 minutes or an >hour | 13:46 |
| cdent | in between will be weird, maybe? | 13:46 |
| smcginnis | If we can't devote more time, maybe have a quick "this is what we're now discussing" overview with a plan to have a full Forum session in Berlin? | 13:48 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: yeah or we can complete the docs together :) | 13:48 |
| smcginnis | evrardjp: That could be useful! ;) | 13:48 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: I mean we can call for volunteers, and start working on it | 13:48 |
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| * cdent skips tc report this week. I'm writ out | 14:30 | |
| zaneb | cdent: I tend to agree. it can be "here's a thing that's happening, please review it" or "here's a 15 minute spiel about what it all means, now let's have 30 minutes for questions", but I don't know what you could usefully do in between | 14:31 |
| fungi | i feel the same | 14:32 |
| fungi | the election officials had also expressed an interest in a tc election panel in a lunch session | 14:33 |
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| fungi | i know there were some positives and negatives laid out on the ml | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | would it make sense to introduce the technical vision and then mention we will be discussing it in more depth on friday afternoon? | 14:34 |
| fungi | i like that | 14:34 |
| zaneb | +1 | 14:35 |
| ttx | yeah | 14:36 |
| ttx | Friday afternoon sounds like a great time | 14:36 |
| ttx | then the lightning talk can be a teaser | 14:36 |
| dhellmann | it's already on our agenda in the tc room for friday afternoon, so we just need the announcement to come earlier than that | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | keeping the lightning talks on wednesday gives folks to ask some questions before friday | 14:37 |
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| ttx | It will be more "short talks" than lightning talks on Wednesday, since one of them will have 10min | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | ok | 14:43 |
| ttx | but yes, earlier will ensure that people see that content | 14:44 |
| smcginnis | I'm assuming we won't have specific time slots but just have it when one talk ends the next start? | 14:44 |
| ttx | since Friday is a bit of a hit and miss. I tend to go to the Taco truck on Fridays | 14:44 |
| ttx | smcginnis: I'd still recommend having a timeline, but not the "rip laptop off your hands after 5:00" style | 14:45 |
| smcginnis | ;) | 14:46 |
| * cmurphy looking forward to tacos | 14:46 | |
| zaneb | do we still have time in the lunch schedule to fit in a session where the Nova team does trust falls in front of the whole PTG? | 14:49 |
| ttx | zaneb: too soon? | 14:50 |
| zaneb | it was mriedem's idea | 14:50 |
| ttx | although the atrium setup makes it tempting | 14:51 |
| mriedem | it's the only way to heal the wounds | 14:53 |
| smcginnis | Can I sponsor this portion of the PTG? | 14:54 |
| zaneb | question: does the distrust that apparently exists between the nova core team and the placement team also extend to distrust within the placement team, given that there is some overlap? | 14:55 |
| dims | o/ | 14:56 |
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| zaneb | yesterday's IRC discussion seemed to suggest that it did, but the mailing list thread seems to be assuming that it doesn't | 14:57 |
| cdent | zaneb: I somewhat reject that it is a question of trust. | 14:57 |
| dhellmann | is it really an issue between the teams? or between individuals? | 14:57 |
| cdent | I think that's a factor, clearly | 14:57 |
| cdent | but it is more about power | 14:57 |
| cdent | which obviously is informed by trust | 14:57 |
| zaneb | right, people generally don't mind giving power to people they trust | 14:58 |
| cdent | sure, but the apparent mechanism for acquiring trust is "agree with me" | 14:59 |
| cdent | (I'm trying to be as honest and open here as mriedem was last night, so if this is uncomfortable, my apologies, but we gotta work through this) | 15:00 |
| ttx | I'd say "control" rather than "power", but yes, it's interconnected | 15:02 |
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| cdent | yes, that is probably a better choice of words | 15:03 |
| zaneb | I feel like we need to build trust, and absolutely not by saying 'stop thinking for yourselves' | 15:03 |
| ttx | zaneb: i think the key is to document common culture/expectations so that you don't have to control and review everything to prevent things from going "wrong" | 15:04 |
| ttx | (i.e. define "wrong") | 15:05 |
| zaneb | cdent: but I don't know how to do that given that the stuff you listed in your email that you're doing are the right ways to go about building trust, and they don't seem to be getting reciprocated :( | 15:05 |
| cdent | thanks for noticing :) | 15:05 |
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| openstackgerrit | Hongbin Lu proposed openstack/governance master: Add openstack/os-ken to neutron https://review.openstack.org/588358 | 15:45 |
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| evrardjp | cdent: (non constructive comment from a Belgian) I'd say if you want to build more trust, you can talk around beers. | 15:59 |
| smcginnis | Mmm, a big foamy pint of trust. | 16:04 |
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| evrardjp | smcginnis: :) | 16:06 |
| efried | smcguinness <== fun friday nick | 16:13 |
| ttx | tc-members: diablo_rojo confirmed she can give a StoryBoard talk, but only has 15-min worth of it, so i combined it with apiers's "Simplifying backports with git-deps and git-explode" which is also a 15-min thing | 16:15 |
| ttx | That way the three things on Wednesday have a little more wiggle room | 16:15 |
| ttx | please let me know (on the etherpad) if that sounds good to you and I'll socialize | 16:16 |
| ttx | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PTG4-postlunch | 16:16 |
| dhellmann | when we had this idea originally we talked about having project teams talk about some of the things they were planning (or planning on planning). it's a shame we can't seem to make that happen. maybe next time. | 16:17 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I still hope some will use lightning talks for that | 16:17 |
| ttx | on-site | 16:17 |
| dhellmann | maybe we can encourage that in the monday session | 16:17 |
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| ttx | good idea | 16:18 |
| ttx | i'll note it down | 16:18 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: based on the votes cast, I have approved the searchlight PTL nomination and abandoned the proposal to drop it from governance | 16:18 |
| cdent | another thing we had talked about, early on, for the monday session, was setting themes for the week "these are the ideas that may help you shape what matters" | 16:19 |
| ttx | cdent: yes, that's what I mean by "set the stage for Stein" | 16:19 |
| ttx | mnaser signed up to do that part | 16:19 |
| ttx | so maybe you can influence the content with him | 16:20 |
| * mnaser is in OSA meeting right now but can chat about that later | 16:20 | |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Adding Trinh Nguyen candidacy for Searchlight PTL https://review.openstack.org/590601 | 16:20 |
| ttx | corrected to "set the stage for the week" which is more accurate | 16:20 |
| cdent | I actually don't have strong opinions about what the stage shoud be, just that it needs to be set | 16:21 |
| * dhellmann tosses a roll of gaffer's tape in his suitcase | 16:21 | |
| fungi | ooh, yeah i like the idea of unconferencing the lightning talks and giving teams the week to prepare for any they want to present. could be a good way to showcase what they worked on during the event even | 16:22 |
| ttx | cdent, zaneb: I've removed myself from the Tech vision talk since 3 people for a 8-min thing sounds overkill | 16:22 |
| cdent | ayeaye | 16:22 |
| fungi | i'm happy to heckle from the peanut gallery ;) | 16:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: mark Trinh Nguyen's appointment as an appointment https://review.openstack.org/591478 | 16:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add qinling-dashboard under Qinling project https://review.openstack.org/591559 | 16:24 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Update Puppet PTL IRC nick https://review.openstack.org/593637 | 16:24 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: import zuul job settings from project-config https://review.openstack.org/593701 | 16:25 |
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| zaneb | ttx: so, uh, what _is_ our position on dependencies between OpenStack components? | 17:38 |
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| fungi | what do you mean by "dependencies"? | 18:28 |
| fungi | and "components" for that matter? | 18:29 |
| fungi | are you talking about components like keystone or components like oslo.db? and are you talking about literal import dependencies or are you talking about functional dependencies expressed through communication over some protocol? | 18:30 |
| smcginnis | "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. | 18:30 |
| fungi | " | 18:30 |
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| zaneb | smcginnis: ironically a netsplit happened right after you typed that | 18:44 |
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| jroll | let's collapse everything back into a monolithic service so that won't happen to openstack deployments | 18:45 |
| smcginnis | zaneb: That is ironic. | 18:48 |
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| TheJulia | jroll: I'll just shake my head | 19:01 |
| jroll | :) | 19:01 |
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| cmurphy | zaneb: we're paired up on both rpm-packaging and mistral health checks, i went ahead and added notes for rpm-packaging and i'm kind of hoping you'll do mistral :) | 19:53 |
| zaneb | cmurphy: ack, thank you and I will take Mistral | 19:54 |
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| efried | If anyone has this at their fingertips and can save me searching... | 21:27 |
| efried | Is there a doc somewhere that describes the process for appointing cores? | 21:28 |
| mriedem | there is....something | 21:39 |
| mriedem | https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/contributor/how-to-get-involved.html#how-do-i-become-nova-core | 21:40 |
| mriedem | pretty old though | 21:40 |
| mriedem | like, from when john/mikal were ptl i think | 21:41 |
| efried | From an OpenStack perspective, is the nomination/appointment process governed entirely per-project? Is there no standard? | 21:45 |
| smcginnis | efried: I think so. | 21:45 |
| smcginnis | I don't think I've seen any document declaring or even recommending how each team needs to handle it. | 21:46 |
| efried | k, thx mriedem and smcginnis | 21:46 |
| smcginnis | Some just make a decision in their weekly meeting. Some have public posting on intent with a wait period for feedback. I think it's really what works best for the team. | 21:46 |
| mnaser | https://redislabs.com/community/commons-clause/ | 21:53 |
| mnaser | Interesting. I wonder if we use them inside OpenStack anywhere. | 21:54 |
| dims | efried : correct | 21:54 |
| dims | mnaser : some hits - http://codesearch.openstack.org/?q=%5Eredis&i=nope&files=%5E.*%5C.txt&repos= | 21:55 |
| pabelanger | mnaser: yah, I think there are some projects with a redis dependency | 21:56 |
| pabelanger | tooz comes to mind | 21:57 |
| mnaser | I wonder where that put us given that it’s not really 100% open anymore | 21:59 |
| pabelanger | I would guess the same place as influxdb, they are open core last I checked | 22:04 |
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| fungi | yeah, if we require that dependencies be packaged on major distros and those distros drop their packages of those dependencies (likely in this case) then i think our hand is forced anyway | 23:27 |
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