Tuesday, 2018-06-12

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* ttx should start logging09:01
ttx#startmeeting tc09:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 12 09:02:07 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.09:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.09:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"09:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'09:02
ttx#chair cmurphy cdent09:02
openstackCurrent chairs: cdent cmurphy ttx09:02
ttxI think I've finally come to terms with Castellan vs. Barbican on that review09:03
cdentsmcginnis and fungi had a pretty extensive coversation here about it yesterday and it felt like it opened more questions09:03
ttxI just commented on the review... I think one issue is that people see that document for more than it is09:04
ttxIt's not deployment guidance, it's developer guidance09:05
ttx"You can develop features that rely on Castellan, it's ok"09:05
ttx"that will inflict pain on operators, but it's worth it"09:05
ttxIt's not about dictating to deploy one thing or the other09:07
ttxThat comes after, through constellations, interop...09:07
ttxwhich are tools targeted to deployers, not developers09:07
ttx(At least that's how I solved the tension in my mind and ended up agreeing)09:08
cdentin the eschaton the twain shall meet09:08
cdentI rather think that as developers, at least ones that are listening well, we shoud create burdens on deployers, but make sure they are useful and visible. Otherwise we're stuck.09:09
ttxright. I see the base services as guidance on which burdens are blessed09:09
ttx(or deemed useful)09:10
cdentI have this long running interal-to-my-brain discussion of collaboration and information sharing as somewhat religious: "blessed", "eschaton" (even "burdens")09:12
cdentand effective leadership is basically making chosen truths visible09:12
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ttxIt's still an interesting balance. On one side you want people to scratch their itches and avoid top-down mandates. On the other you need a body of shared understandings and common direction09:15
ttxStriking the right balance there has been the story of the last 8 years of my life09:16
persiaAside from needing context for reviews, what is the benefit to common direction?09:16
cdentpersia: I can think of a variety of things, but one big one is a sense of membership09:17
ttxpersia: I'd say that for any major change, it's hard to get started if you doubt that it's even a "wanted direction"09:17
cdent(which of course demands "what is the benefit of a sense of membership?"09:17
ttxWe have a mechanism at project-team level to early check for that agreement09:17
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persiaIdentity is important for lots of reasons: I just hadn't thought that common direction drove identity (but I can see why).09:18
ttxBut for changes that span "OpenStack"... it's harder to get that sense of working on a desirable direction09:18
ttxand as individual components mature, we get more and more of those "openstack" spanning things09:18
persiaValidation is a cultural element, but widely shared.  Hard to fix without strong access to all the educational ministries in the world.09:19
ttxIn other news... the discussion on diversity tags went a bit in every direction, trying to summarize it now09:22
cdentAnother thing I like about common direction is that it acts as counter to the unfettered (some would even say cancerous) growth that OpenStack experienced a few years ago (2014-15?). Then direction was pushing in many ways, creating a large balloon, but not going anywhere in particular.09:22
cdentTo go somewhere, the force vectors need some alignment.09:23
cdentYeah, the diversity thing did go many ways.09:23
cdentpersia: since you've expressed opinions in this area before, I have an issue you might be able to help with: Now that these office hours are being explicitly logged and dhellmann has changed the tone of the official tc update to be a bit more verbose, I'm struggling to find my voice for my tc reports. Any desires or suggestions?09:25
cdentPart of the problem is that because of travel I haven't done one in a long time, and inertia. But there's more than that.09:26
persiacdent: The value of amanuensis vs. logs is the process by which the amanuesis considers the input.  Be less objective: your further speculations on the discussion and/or sharing your opinions will help others in the community who are not as closely involved feel emotional connection to the logs, if they peruse them.  For those who do not intend to peruse logs, it provides a counterpoint to the verbose update, so that those not involved can more09:28
persiaeasily see consensus vs, lack of consensus.09:28
persiaMind you, in the event that you and dhellmann agree firmly and everyone else is uncertain, the burden falls on others to ensure the breadth of dialog is preserved in the discussion.09:29
cdentOh, good, a) you used the word amanuensis, which I love, b) what you describe is what I was thinking too: subjectively observe where consensus is lackign09:30
persiaAlso where consensus is present, to help observers appreciate the nature of the consensus (removing suprise when the decision is reached).09:30
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* ttx reaches out for the Merriam-Webster09:33
persiattx: amanuensis: a human who records things (vs. a machine).09:34
cdentthe simple definitions tend to miss out on some of the context and the implications about creating meaning out of chaos09:34
persiaUsed to be a synonym for secretary, but as a result of careful presentation by a couple authors in the past decade or so, has come to specifically mean inaccurate/human processed recording.09:35
* ttx returns to summarizing threads like an amanuensis09:35
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persiattx: Your thread summaries are some of the best examples of amanuensis I could cite.  Thanks for all those in the past, and any you may choose to offer in the future.09:36
cdentback in the blue oxen days the amanuensis was a key role in (/me takes a breath) our model for high performance asynchronous collaboration09:38
cdentas a sort of bridge between instances of engagement09:38
persiacdent: As a means to reduce the time required to follow the many separate chains of thought that represent a collection of IRC channels?09:38
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cdentit was more about identifying/sustaining a chain through multiple media09:39
cdentnotably things like "at the end of last week we never resolved thread A, here are the things still hanging"09:40
cdents/media/media over time/09:41
cdentpersia: http://eekim.com/2007/02/the-blue-oxen-way/09:41
cdent(sadly a lot of dead links in there)09:42
* persia may not have been reading the right books, as that makes the claim of "decade" above clearly not a sufficient span09:42
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ttxmnaser: I just published a "diversity tag" thread summary on the list. I still think a per-cycle report is the right way to convey that complex topic -- could be crowdsourced through the TC team liaisons, each contributing a paragraph to describe current status in that team09:46
cdentpersia: the backing "ethic" of much of blue oxen is in http://peermore.com/astool.html09:48
persiacomputation as augmentation vs. computation as automation ends up being more interesting than I could have imagined :)09:50
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cdentwe seem to have reached the end of the office hour09:58
* ttx closes hour10:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/"10:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 12 10:01:33 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)10:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-06-12-09.02.html10:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-06-12-09.02.txt10:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-06-12-09.02.log.html10:01
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cdentthat's trying to be a high five12:08
dimsi like that12:08
jroll:) morning12:08
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mnaserttx: thank you for sending that email12:25
mnaseralso hi everyone12:26
cdenthi dr mnaser12:27
mnaseris there context i'm missing or did i become a dr?12:27
mnaseralso, hi cdent12:27
cdentone mo12:27
* mnaser doesn't consume enough media :(12:28
dimsgood one :)12:28
cdentI only know that one by association. So many people have done the same thing to me that I eventually had to figure out what this "hi everybody" thing was12:29
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dimsso ... on the barbican/castallan review, i suggested a variation to give permission for services to depend on barbican if they really want to. though i am ok with current wording as well12:32
dimsfungi : dhellmann : ^12:32
cdentI need to read that. Whatever we do it needs to avoid ambiguity.12:33
dimsmordred : orran quoted you about a half a dozen times yesterday ... (context: went to see the mass open cloud folks yesterday)12:34
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smcginnisWow, busy morning already.12:51
* smcginnis starts reading scrollback12:51
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smcginniscdent: +1 for subjectivity. I still find that valuable, even being in the original discussions.12:59
cdentsmcginnis: it could very well be that the reason I'm struggling is because I've been out of the loop for a while. I probably just need to write something and this first one will be bland and then it will get better13:00
smcginniscdent: Yeah, that inertia can be a powerful thing.13:03
openstackgerritJulia Kreger proposed openstack/governance master: Add principles entry for peer review  https://review.openstack.org/57094013:04
cdentTheJulia: yay! I was hoping a new one of those was coming soon13:07
TheJuliabeing in .EU last week was kind of draining13:07
cdentyou had some exciting plane fun, apparently13:08
TheJuliasomewhat yes13:08
TheJuliathe return trip was uneventful... just long13:09
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mordreddims: \o/13:15
smcginnisttx: Nice historical context on that storyboard thread. It was getting too charged I think.13:22
cdentzaneb, ttx I started adding some stuff to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tech-vision-2018 and came to a bit of a crashing halt13:23
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zanebcdent: you're light blue, right?14:46
cdentyessir, sorry for not making that clear14:47
zanebnp, etherpad has made ttx two different colours which is slightly confusing14:47
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ttxI am all the colors15:04
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zanebttx: does your June 12 update on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_health_tracker refer to Zaqar, or Trove?15:21
zanebah it was Trove, looks like an edit conflict15:23
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: add python 2 deprecation timeline  https://review.openstack.org/57101118:46
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add afsmon project under infra  https://review.openstack.org/57252718:47
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add new roles to OpenStack-Ansible  https://review.openstack.org/57255618:47
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: document house-rule for chair-proposed typo fixes  https://review.openstack.org/57281118:47
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openstackgerritZane Bitter proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Add change review guide  https://review.openstack.org/57488820:58
openstackgerritZane Bitter proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Add change review guide  https://review.openstack.org/57488821:02
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