Friday, 2018-06-01

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openstackgerritHongbin Lu proposed openstack/governance master: Update Zun PTL email address
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openstackgerritSamuel Cassiba proposed openstack/governance master: Add openstackclient to Chef OpenStack
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zanebTIL there is a PTL who has never posted to the -dev mailing list14:23
smcginnisI could see that happening.14:23
mnaserif the teams are smaller sometimes the discussion mostly happens over irc14:27
openstackgerritSamuel Cassiba proposed openstack/governance master: Add openstackclient to Chef OpenStack
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* mnaser is a little surprised at how there was no responses to the starlingx update email15:19
dtroyermnaser: I was planning one, am just now surfacing from travel :)15:20
mnaserno worries :p15:20
dtroyerand thank you for that15:20
mnaserdtroyer: really sorry, i missed two things in the review15:21
dtroyerI didn't want storyboard for those two15:22
dtroyerdo I need the group anyway?15:22
mnaserit is a false15:22
mnaseryou are right15:22
dtroyerI'm still not exactly sure what I should have storyboard set up for and what not, maybe we should do them all anyway?15:23
mnasermaybe diablo_rojo15:23
mnasercan help answer some of that :)15:23
dtroyerit is also partly not being sure how the new teams will use it.  we're weaning folk off Jira for this, they have a tight grip15:24
dimsttx : dhellmann : smcginnis : fyi,
smcginnisdims: Hmm, looks like the same team. So maybe they have already moved themselves out of governance.15:31
dimsfungi : what do you think of this one? (others too!)15:38
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dhellmanndtroyer : do you already have launchpad set up? or are bugs being tracked somewhere else?16:01
dhellmannoh, jira16:01
dhellmannI guess given the attempt to shift everyone else over to storyboard, that seems like a good default, but it's not really a requirement in this case16:02
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dtroyerdhellmann: we have internal Jira for the open-sourcing effort16:43
dtroyerthe shift back to development is what we need to figure out next16:43
dtroyerI wasn't sure if we should have multiple categories or how the mapping to repos should work.  that's isn't nearly as much of a committment as repos (living forever) so we'll sort it as we go16:44
dhellmanndtroyer: we're looking for roadblocks to bringing other projects into SB, other than "momentum", so if you have feedback that would be useful16:44
dhellmanndo you mean for the "groups" setting?16:44
dtroyeryeah, that's it.   /me still an SB noob16:45
dhellmanneach repo can be mapped to multiple groups16:45
dhellmannyou can do things like show all of the open issues in a group16:45
dhellmannso it's just another organizational tool16:45
dhellmannstories have tasks and tasks are attached to repos, like in LP16:45
dhellmannLP has groups, too, but there a project can only be in 1 group16:46
dtroyerthat is likely the restriction I still had in mind16:46
dhellmannyeah, it took me a while to get the data model straight enough that I could figure out how to use the tool16:47
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dhellmanndims : I've seen that making the rounds on twitter, but I'm not sure where it originated. I try to place more value (and "merit") in people doing things and helping others than in technical "smarts".17:01
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fungidims: dhellmann: yeah, i tend to see our community as being more of a "do-ocracy" (like debian also likes to claim). basically those who do the work get to decide how the work is done17:09
cdentfungi, dhellmann : I think those kinds of statements underestimate the barriers to "doing"17:12
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cdentand that's rather the point of critiques of do-ocracy and merittocracy17:12
dhellmanngiven the amount of time we spend begging for help in areas, I think I'm pretty aware that there are barriers17:13
fungii think that self-preservation for the community depends on making it easier for everyone to "do" but that doesn't invalidate the benefits17:13
fungii certainly agree that claims of "merit" are baseless17:14
fungii don't think that letting the people who do the work decide how (collectively) it should be done is a bad thing17:14
fungias the alternative is letting someone who isn't doing the work tell you how to do it17:15
cdentthat's not the only alternative17:15
fungisure, for completeness the third option is to not decide how things will be done and just see what happens17:15
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cdentI'm sure there's more than that.17:16
fungiultimately, in an environment where contributors (and i'm not just talking about code contributors, and i'm not just talking about individuals either) decice what they're going to work on, they either decide it for themselves or they decide to listen to someone else's opinions, but ultimately it's their decision one way or the other17:17
cdentIs it a fair response to say "that's a bit reductionist" (I think it is fair, and I think it fairly reasonable to use as a response to most statements that get made about this kind of stuff)17:18
fungito take it at its most reductionist then: users don't tell me what to build. i listen to users because i value their input, and i often choose to agree with it, but that's not the same thing17:18
fungimy employer might give me the option of working on some specific thing or finding a job somewhere else, but then that's them (as a contributor) choosing where to spend their resources (my time)17:20
* cdent destroys capitalism while getting a cup of coffee17:20
* zaneb gets popcorn17:21
fungii like that we as a community come to collective consensus around certain things which we agree need getting done, and then work on those things. we can do that while trying to make it easy for people who aren't involved in that process to get involved, but i really don't see any other sustainable model17:22
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fungientirely possible this is a blind spot on my part17:22
fungianyway, back to the original topic, i don't see that the manifesto is in any way counter to how we work as a community17:24
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fungiit seems mostly to be a reaction to the interpretation that (understandably) the term "meritocracy" is being used literally in some communities to mean that people of merit get to make the decisions, with some vacuous notion of what defines "merit"17:25
fungimostly as an alias for "oligarchy" i guess17:26
cdentAnd you don't feel like parts of openstack culture are an oligarchy?17:26
fungii feel like any large group of humans interacting will have a tendency to descend into that17:27
fungiwe can fight against that tendency, but i don't think that claims to adopt some other model of group governance do anything to prevent human nature17:28
fungii believe that no matter how we claim to approach governance on paper, the tendency of people to want to form cliques with others of like mind will be ever-present17:29
persiaMy readings suggest that oligarchies form when there is an increase in the barriers to entry to the class able to effect change.  When the mechanisms for change are more widely available, bureaucracy is the more common result.17:29
fungifair, we have a bit of both of those ;)17:29
* cdent hopes to figure out useful ways to fight harder17:36
* dims catches up17:42
dhellmanndims : thanks for the pointer to that rallyx repo18:10
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smcginnisBoth projects seem to have various issues of concern.18:16
smcginnisIf rally is in the process of moving over to RallyX on GitHub, that at least might make some things easier.18:16
fungias in, makes certain decisions for us18:27
cdentBased on what i heard before, the openstack parts of rally are going to be extracted to a plugin18:29
cdentwhether that plugin will be openstack-hosted or not is unclear18:29
smcginnisfungi: Yep18:30
smcginnisYeah, this only has a couple text files so far:
smcginnis"This repo is not meant for development"18:31
diablo_rojomnaser, did you get all of your questions answered about storyboard? :)18:48
mnaserdiablo_rojo: i believe dhellmann helped go through them :)18:51
diablo_rojomnaser, awesome! Sorry I wasn't around earlier- been taking it easy since the summit, but I'll be back at it full force Monday if you have more questions.18:52
mnaserdiablo_rojo: no problem, summit is a lil exhausting, take care!18:52
diablo_rojomnaser, ideed :) Thank you! You too.18:53
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zanebTheJulia: what do you think of this as a starting point for a code review section in the contributors guide?
zaneb(in an etherpad rather than a review as it'll be easier to get a bunch of people to contribute)20:10
diablo_rojozaneb, we already have something similar started, but it can definitely be added to
diablo_rojoIf it grows large enough we can break it out into its own section too20:11
zanebdiablo_rojo: thanks, yeah I saw that and that would be a good place for it20:12
zanebgoal here is to collect all of the wisdom that flows out of our periodic massive openstack-dev thread on this topic and channel it into docs :)20:13
zanebin a (mostly) non-prescriptive way, of course :)20:13
cmurphyzaneb: i feel like the description of a -1 is a little overzealous - -1 doesn't block something from merging20:14
cmurphyit's an expression of a preference, not a block20:15
zanebyeah, not technically20:15
diablo_rojoWanted to make sure you had seen what exists already. It's still pretty new so I generally default to assuming people don't know about it. Glad you have though!20:15
zanebbut I don't know that we'll be able to accomplish the culture shift that TheJulia is asking for without being a little bit zealous20:15
smcginnisI thought the -1 description was a little too strong at first too, but reading on and thinking of this in the perspective of a newer reviewer and trying to get them to understand, I think that might be OK.20:18
dhellmannzaneb : nice20:25
cmurphyI would prefer to word it strongly without being misleading about its technical power, maybe "Use the -1 review to indicate that you have found significant problems with the patch that you strongly believe should be corrected before the patch is merged"20:26
zanebcmurphy: that sounds better to me, go ahead and make that change :)20:27
* zaneb wrote that several hours ago and had already forgotten what the first sentence said20:28
cdentI like cmurphy's description20:30
smcginnisYep, that works for me too.20:34
fungisounds great20:39
cdentzaneb, mostly looks good, left a couple of changes (light blue). Other suggestion is that maybe the followup change section should come before the modify existing to indicate structurally which might be more common?20:43
zanebthanks cdent, those are good suggestions20:44
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zanebI'll wait until Monday before sending that link out to the list, to give TheJulia a chance to review first21:33
* TheJulia reads21:34
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TheJuliacmurphy: great wording21:36
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TheJuliazaneb: re: line 39-40. Reviewer attempting to redirect your valuable time. That doesn't sit well with me in that we should also indicate that a contributor can open a dialog and make their case. The may then be asked to provide additional context, etc.21:49
TheJuliaI think it is really good21:56
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