Thursday, 2018-05-17

*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc00:05
*** mriedem_afk has quit IRC00:15
*** david-lyle has quit IRC00:34
*** annabelleB has quit IRC00:43
*** edmondsw has quit IRC01:19
openstackgerritIan Wienand proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Diagram explaining constraints layers
*** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc01:45
*** rosmaita has quit IRC02:06
mnaserttx: link to the talk you’re giving that you’ve suggested to attend in regards to the focus areas etc?02:36
*** lbragstad has quit IRC02:39
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc02:39
*** kumarmn has quit IRC02:46
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc02:46
*** kumarmn has quit IRC02:47
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc02:47
*** kumarmn has quit IRC02:47
*** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc02:59
*** edmondsw has quit IRC03:04
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc04:24
*** kumarmn has quit IRC04:37
*** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc04:48
*** edmondsw has quit IRC04:53
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc05:08
*** kumarmn has quit IRC05:12
ttxmriedem: two remarks: some projects prefer to reinvent secret storage rather than depend on Barbican so there is clearly a catch-22 there... (2) The idea was to add "a castellan-compatible secret store" rather than Barbican, and have Castellan support Vault and other secret stores07:42
ttxThere were two issues with that strategy: 1/ castellan had to be made more neutral, move under Oslo etc. -- I think that's mostly done now. 2/ Some projects (Designate ? Octavia?) depended on specific features of barbican that you don't find in other secret stores (like cert generation ?)07:44
ttxand we wanted to avoid some project having a strong dependency on Barbican, if the goal was to make Castellan the interface07:45
*** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc08:24
*** dtantsur|afk is now known as dtantsur08:26
*** edmondsw has quit IRC08:29
*** dims has quit IRC09:20
*** dims has joined #openstack-tc10:07
*** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc10:13
*** edmondsw has quit IRC10:17
*** dims has quit IRC10:17
*** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc10:52
*** jaosorior has quit IRC11:01
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc11:01
*** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc11:05
*** rosmaita has joined #openstack-tc11:07
mugsieDesignate wanted to use Barbican for signing DNSSEC hashes11:16
mugsie(a security review goes a lot easier if you can draw a line around an external service and say "the private key never leaves $HSM")11:17
mugsieand we didn't want to implment crypto signing in designate11:18
mugsiebut with the deployment profile of barbican, we will have to just nice use castelen and retrieve the key and sign ourselves11:19
cdentAye, there's the rub.11:21
cdentif we were a bit more monolithic (in definition, not design) it would be easiser to just say "the next version of openstack has barbican" done11:22
mugsieyeah - I have seen "new in Queens posts" that make it seem like OpenStack is one big monolith though11:30
*** lbragstad has joined #openstack-tc11:33
*** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc11:57
*** cdent has quit IRC12:03
*** jaosorior has quit IRC12:12
*** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc12:19
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc12:35
*** dims has joined #openstack-tc12:43
fungii don't think it's necessarily just one "we" in that scenario12:47
fungithe project as a whole can declare that "openstack now includes barbican" but that doesn't mean deployers and operators will necessarily install it unless forced to do so12:48
fungi(either through projects they want growing a strict dependency on it thereafter, or insistence in trademark programs with which they want to comply)12:49
fungiand then we're back to the same "well sure we say it's part of openstack but can't really depend on it because almost nobody's installing it in their environments" catch-2212:51
fungibut i do agree our strong focus on modular design has underscored for operators of just how many discrete services openstack is composed, and so every time we mention this class of features we've added they see it as yet another service which needs care and feeding12:53
fungirather than necessarily seeing it as additional functionality12:54
mnaseri think it's because they're all separately configured, running their own processes, needing their own configuration, their own endpoint, etc13:01
ttxDentist appointment 45 min before TC office hour today, might be late13:09
dhellmanntc-members: that API session mordred is organizing has been added to the forum schedule:
smcginnisWow, that time even works for me. Awesome.13:33
mugsiefungi: sure. But the trademark program has always been a trailing standard, rather than a progressive vision one13:45
mugsiebut then again, I have opinions on that side interop, so others may see it as a net good thing13:45
*** rosmaita has quit IRC13:48
*** rosmaita has joined #openstack-tc13:52
openstackgerritMerged openstack/project-team-guide master: Update dependency-management doc
openstackgerritMerged openstack/project-team-guide master: Update Documentation per project team docs migration
*** ianychoi_ has quit IRC13:59
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc14:01
smcginnisI need to check out and get ready to go, so I may miss office hours today.14:06
dhellmannI think I'm glad I don't know what that clip is from14:10
smcginnisAll I remember is thinking it was a very odd movie at the time.14:11
cdentdhellmann: donnie darko. One of those rare movie where the theatrical release is probably better than the director's cut.14:11
*** ianychoi has joined #openstack-tc14:18
ttxI survived the dentist successfully and am back14:35
*** rosmaita has quit IRC14:50
* fungi personally thinks darko is an excellent film14:51
* fungi likely has strange taste in cinema14:52
cdentI really like it too, thus my confusion about the director's cut14:52
*** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc14:54
mtreinishI'm not sure if I've ever seen the director's cut14:56
*** annabelleB has quit IRC14:57
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc14:58
cdentmtreinish: as I recall, it tries to flesh out the why of it all a bit more14:59
cdentwhich ruins some of the wtf and mystery of it15:00
cdentespecially if you already had your own (different) interpretation15:00
cdenttc-members seems to be office hours15:00
*** annabelleB has quit IRC15:00
ttxit does15:00
ttxDo all TC members attend the Summit ? Or are we missing some ?15:01
ttxI know cdent misses the Sunday meet for a good reason15:01
ttxI know EmilienM does not travel far15:01
EmilienMI have to walk 20 min :(  (long walk really)15:02
ttxSounds healthy15:02
TheJuliasounds like it would be invigorating15:02
ttxEmilienM: when do you get the waterplane certification?15:02
johnsomFYI based on this mornings/last nights discussion. Octavia supports either Barbican or Castellan as of Queens.15:03
mnaserexcuse me i have to fly 6 hours so :-)15:03
EmilienMhehe, not this year15:03
ttxjohnsom: great!15:03
EmilienMso nothing happens on Saturday evening?15:03
mnaserjohnsom: oh cool, i looked around the code, saw barbican references but wasn't sure about castellan15:03
ttxEnjoy the free evening15:03
EmilienMwell if anyone wants to see a taste of Vancouver night life, just ping me15:04
johnsommnaser Yeah, it is in the queens release notes.15:04
johnsomIt wasn't much of a change for us because we were involved in the development of Castellan.15:04
mnaserjohnsom: cool, that pretty much makes it that most projects i reviewed are making use of castellan15:04
fungithough per mugsie's point, some services certainly want an hsm and it sounds like not all castellan-compatible backends implement one?15:05
ttxAny last-minute question I can help answer ? I'm traveling toorrow15:05
mnaserfungi: yeah, but castellan drivers can just have some supported features and others that arent15:05
mugsieyeah, I get squirrly about private keys being in memory of the  service, but that may just be me15:06
dhellmannhas everyone had a chance to review the slide deck on contribution stats?15:06
fungii wonder whether castellan could also expose things like key generation backed by different solutions than key storage (so to the service the needs are still through a single pane even if behind the scenes your key is being shuffled between a couple subsystems)15:06
ttxIf you attend a forum session that clearly would benefit from a continuation session, you can remind the moderator that they can schedule one if they manage to find a suitable free spot in the 3rd room15:06
johnsomAnchor was supposed to be the CA/generator, but I don't think it is still staffed15:07
ttxIf they find such a slot, they can email so that it gets added to schedule15:07
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc15:07
TheJuliaI did review the slide deck, but I have mixed feelings about the exclusion of some data because it can be gamed. It doesn't feel like a huge problem right now, but that is just my perception.15:07
fungiso if you're using castellan to talk to barbican then it asks barbican to generate and store the key, but if you're configured to use vault then castellan calls out to something else (openssl?) to do jey generation and you simlpy document that it's not a nearly so paranoid implementation under those circumstances15:08
mnaserTheJulia: depends on the project, i can say that some projects get a lot of "tag along +1" .. but i do agree that it might take away from perfectly valid non-cores saying "i think this is good"15:08
EmilienMdhellmann: I did have a look and have no useful comment, it lgtm15:08
dhellmannEmilienM : thanks15:09
ttxdhellmann: One thing I noticed is the pie chart labels are a bit random, but I guess the goal is not to talk about individuals15:09
johnsomThe big driver for us was Castellan support Vault as a backend15:09
dhellmannttx : yeah, google docs doesn't give a lot of control over that. I considered dropping the names but thought it would be ok to highlight a few specific people15:10
dhellmannI think their layout algorithm tries to only show labels when lines or text wouldn't cross15:10
ttxyeah it's ok as long as you mention it I guess15:10
cmurphydhellmann: the proposal and release bots are being counted as contributors, is that intentional?15:11
dhellmannTheJulia : that's fair. This is all an attempt to sift out some useful info, so different interpretations are valid15:11
dhellmanncmurphy : yeah, I decided to leave those in to show (a) automation does a lot (b) sometimes more than people (c) we still need people to deal with what the automation produces15:11
dhellmannttx: do you think it would be better to remove names from the graphs?15:12
TheJuliaI feel like names might help convey individual stories which makes data more relatable... possibly15:12
fungijohnsom: yeah, i mean i can understand the benefit to having multiple supported backends there, but for services which could benefit from a full-blown hsm it would be nice if they could at least count on the necessary features for that even if it means a combination of a couple of complimentary "backends" rather than a single integrated backend providing that full set of features15:13
ttxdhellmann: no.. I think it stresses the point better15:13
dhellmannyeah, I thought seeing a few names over and over might help drive the point home, too15:13
ttxjust say the chart shows a few names only15:13
dhellmannok, yeah, that's a good point15:13
fungi"and some of those names aren't even people"15:13
fungii personally feel like that sends an even stronger signal15:14
dhellmannI'll call that out specifically on the designate slide, since it shows up well there15:14
dhellmannand the proposal bot is the 3rd highest contributor15:15
fungiyou could consider the generated commits to be contribution from our nifra donors, i suppose15:15
fungier, infra donors15:15
jrollis there a public link to the slides, out of curiousity? or TC-only for now?15:15
dhellmannjroll : it's linked on the agenda but yeah, thanks mnaser15:15
mugsiedhellmann: yeah - slides look acurate15:16
* jroll always has trouble finding the agenda, too15:16
mugsieit doesn't look good for designate  though :/15:16
mnaserjroll: :)15:16
jrollmnaser: heh, thank you15:16
dhellmannmnaser a.k.a. link-bot15:17
mnaseri just have to dig through the 60 or so open tabs15:17
dhellmannmugsie, yeah, it doesn't look good. I'm hoping a visual will drive that home, since we've been saying so for a while now15:17
mnaserdhellmann: how easy is it to generate the data for another period of time?15:17
dhellmannthe tools are there, they just take some time to run15:18
mnasermaybe showing 2016 vs 2017 might draw a much more important point15:18
dhellmannit's all in the goal-tools repo15:18
dhellmannundocumented, of course15:18
jrollmugsie: oof, it does not. probably also worth calling out that timsim doesn't work on designate anymore (I assume)15:18
mugsieyeah, neither does Kiall15:18
jrollso 2 out of the top 3 humans are out there15:19
mnaseri think having 2016 vs 2017 can help show both that some projects might be losing contributors (designate) and others that are headed by the same people year over year15:19
mugsiedhellmann: core group is actually 3 now - kiall + timsim are no longer there15:19
mnaserwhich could mean a pretty big dependency15:19
dhellmannmnaser : I thought about that. I wasn't sure whether focusing on a decline would be better or just saying "here's where we are today"15:19
dhellmannI want to leave lots of time for actual discussion about what to *do* about this, too15:20
dhellmannmugsie : ok, I got that from gerrit but I'll update the speaker notes, thanks15:20
mnaseri've had a really awesome experience on puppet-openstack picking up two new contributors which one of them recently brought to core.  i think we should try and work more with PTLs about picking up early hints of new contributors and welcome/support them15:20
dhellmannI think that would be a good thing for us to work on, as a group15:20
mugsiedhellmann: it would be worth noting that 2 of those 3 are new, and came up to core by digging in15:21
dhellmannI know we have onboarding sessions at the forum, but do we actually help teams prepare for those so they can be effective?15:21
dhellmannmugsie : that's a wonderful point, thanks, I'll add that15:21
mugsieOne thing I was wondering as a topic for Sunday (more likely in the evening event) - the LCOO15:23
dhellmannmy plan is to run through these as quickly as possible to highlight the general trends and then get to the conclusion slide and ask the room for advice about how we can bring focus on these areas15:23
dhellmannI know cdent also wanted to talk about giving folks time to be leaders and mentor, so maybe someone can talk a bit about that when we get to the discussion section15:23
dhellmannmugsie : yeah, the agenda is already very very full15:24
dhellmannthat's a good topic, but it came up too late for this meeting15:24
*** rosmaita has joined #openstack-tc15:24
dhellmannI think we're going to want to work with the UC folks on that directly first, as ttx suggested15:24
mugsiedhellmann: yeah, the "allow people to grow" issue is very related to the presentation15:24
dhellmannmaybe you can get together with mrhillsman to plan a meeting over lunch one day or something?15:24
mugsieyeah - it just seems everytime we ask about this it gets stonewalled15:25
dhellmannyeah, let's do it in person and let's talk with the UC leadership about how to move forward15:26
*** eeiden has joined #openstack-tc15:26
ttxmugsie: Might be an easier discussion to have directly with UC members rather than calling out companies at the Board15:26
ttxI'm also fine driving the point wit my Foundation hat on15:26
* dhellmann would like to see ttx's hat rack15:27
TheJuliadhellmann: So the foundation did supply a more specific list to PTLs for this cycle that suggested format an things to cover, also conveying what attendees should learn from the prior sessions15:27
dhellmannTheJulia : oh, good! I didn't realize that.15:27
mugsieOh, I don't want to call out any companies - I would prefer to encourge them to move back to defaulting to more open15:27
ttxSo that it does not appear like the TC is disciplining the UC on openness15:27
TheJuliadhellmann: it surely uses space folding technology15:27
mugsiettx: sure, I get that - the optics may not look great15:27
dhellmannttx: that's a good point15:28
dhellmannTheJulia : ++15:28
ttxto be fair if the UC dropped them from the page nobody would probably notice/care :)15:28
* ttx brb15:30
fungii gather mordred may also, in his capacity as a board member, be interested in an lcoo discussion15:31
dhellmannyeah. we should start with some facts gathering. maybe there are already plans afoot to fix things.15:31
TheJuliaI'm not sure it is a matter of calling out companies, but helping companies understand that they may need to go back and evaluate if they are over burdening people and the effect of that (which as we all know, is ultimately burnout)15:32
fungiright, my biggest concern for the lcoo is that they're basically setting themselves up for irrelevance (but as their activities are fairly opaque, it's hard to know whether they're accomplishing the goals they set out for or not)15:33
dhellmannTheJulia : oh, I read the calling out comment as related to the LCOO thing, but your point relates well to the contributor stats discussion, too15:33
smcginnisI haven't been watching, but I haven't seen any changes either from that group.15:33
dhellmannI had originally put together charts showing which companies were contributing in these areas, rather than which people15:33
dhellmannand those charts were going to make for a very awkward conversation15:33
smcginnisAnd my impression from the last comments I saw was they were annoyed that anyone would suggest they need to change.15:33
TheJuliadhellmann: and here I wasn't even aware the topic had shifted so much... downside of.... 3 or 4 concurrent conversations I'm trying to track at the moment :(15:34
* dhellmann would like to see TheJulia's hat rack, too15:34
mugsieyeah, I don't want to call them (companies) out on people provided, but I think it is important that we know the stats, for planning and backchannel discussions15:34
fungismcginnis: since the lcoo is made up of "member companies" and contributions tend to come from individuals, it's tough to map one to the other and say whether there's been any direct influence from the lcoo (positive or negative)15:34
TheJuliadhellmann: lol15:34
smcginnisTheJulia: Only 3 concurrent topics is pretty good for us. ;)15:34
smcginnisfungi: That's true.15:34
dhellmannI should write some user docs for that who-helped tool15:35
dhellmannmaybe after the summit15:35
smcginnisdhellmann: Separately from specific project contributions, would it be useful to have a slide that at least alludes to the fact that there is a disproportionate number coming from certain companies?15:36
dhellmannmaybe. that's a double edged sword.15:36
TheJuliaLikely the other thing that needs to also be kept in mind with contribution stats is while we are all scattered, realistically it also takes 2 more people to achieve anything, and those contributors may have lower stats that are hidden in the numbers because of all of the varying priorities15:36
dhellmannI imagine you could all guess which companies appear at the top of that list15:36
dhellmannyou might be surprised at the degree of disparity15:37
dhellmannI was15:37
dhellmannand there are two ways that can be balanced: others doing more, or the top contributors doing less.15:37
dhellmannTheJulia : yeah, it would be interesting to pull just the approval numbers15:37
dhellmannI did that for the nova nfv stuff15:38
dhellmannalthough I didn't include it15:38
smcginnisTop contributors doing less would probably have a big impact on those numbers.15:38
dhellmannthe core reviewers, of course, did most of the reviews. that didn't seem like a surprise15:38
dhellmannsmcginnis : indeed15:38
dhellmannI like cdent's idea of having our more experienced folks work as force multipliers for some of the other contributors15:39
dhellmannI'm trying that with some oslo work this cycle with mixed results15:39
cdentI'm do mental experiments along the lines of "If you have +2 on a project you may not write features"15:39
cdentyou can only review, bug fix, or tech debt clean15:40
dhellmannmixed in that the work is good, but taking longer than I expected. I have not yet worked out why that is the case.15:40
cdentI don't ever expect to see that happen but it is a good mental exercise15:40
cdentIt would help, greatly, to create useful voids15:40
TheJuliacdent: interesting concept15:41
fungii've been trying really hard to remind myself to spend my time providing guidance and mentoring, and not taking on tasks that i know others could do, but ultimately it's hard for me to not feel like i'm failing to pull my own weight so i still tend to give into temptation and volunteer to fix or run things15:41
lbragstadfungi: same15:41
cdent(except I don't have +2 on what I primarily code on, so I guess it doesn't apply)15:41
dhellmannsomething that extreme may end up incentivizing people to drop off the review team; asking for them to do *more* reviews than feature writing might be something we could actually do15:41
* fungi is a victim of the "american work ethic" disease15:41
TheJuliafungi: me as well15:42
dhellmannfungi : yeah, it's especially hard when you see exactly how to do it, but I'm trying to consider that I need to train my replacement(s)15:42
fungiwe talk about the variety of cultural challenges contributors from different parts of the world face, and i suppose this challenge is endemic to my culture15:43
dhellmannwe need a pithy slogan for that15:43
TheJuliaMentally I think, at least in the back of my brain, that it would be useful if we could delegate code approvals outside of a core team, distribute the workload a little better because there are always code paths that people may have looked at the week before and have extremely fresh in their memory where as a core may not have looked at a path in upwards of a year15:43
dhellmannTheJulia : what do you think stops us from doing that?15:43
*** dklyle has quit IRC15:43
TheJuliadhellmann: trust issues inherent to humans, lack of understanding of others context and motivations, lack of ability to do path acls in gerrit to say "This group can do whatever they want with y folder) or some sort of magical upvoting logic15:44
fungidelegating code review is fairly easy in that you can take +1 from a trusted mentee as if it were a +2. the infra team has done that from time to time but generally ends up turning those people into core reviewers on the specific repositories where they're reviewing eventually15:45
fungi(and "eventually" tends to be on the order of weeks, not months or years)15:45
cdenthow refreshing15:45
dhellmannTheJulia : this feels like something one person needs to demonstrate as workable. Like, if *you* trust someone you could just take their +1 as approval and go put your +2 on the patch as-is.15:46
cmurphy++ we're always free to make judgment calls on a case-by-case basis, we don't need to always have explicit acls and formality around it15:46
dhellmannwhen we try to make cultural changes like this we've done best to have examples to point to as successful15:46
fungiinfra is probably in a more unique position though, insofar as it has lots of repos in a variety of subject areas, so those lighter-weight review silos are easier to build up15:46
dhellmann(or failures to learn from)15:46
TheJuliaI think some people do it, but without fostering a culture to do it, it is easy to derail. The cycle counts we sometimes see also nukes that very quickly when people seek perfection.15:46
cdentfungi: that's (repo size) a huge part of it15:47
dhellmannfungi : oslo has worked similarly in the past15:47
fungii can see where it's tougher for monolithic codebases15:47
dhellmannalthough these days we're pretty liberal with drafting people into the main core team and trusting them to be careful15:47
dhellmannthe oslo code is also a good bit more stable, so there tends to be less churn to be concerned about15:48
*** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc15:48
dhellmannthat article I linked to a day or two ago talked about the amount of change as a stress factor leading to burnout15:48
fungithere's occasionally been the suggestion that we should arrange acls by subtree within a repository, but if your code is already that cleanly delineated then it's barely a step away from being able to decompose it into different repositories anyway15:48
TheJuliacmurphy: I guess my fear is some contributors see any case by case judgement call not aligning with policy because it was not an explicitly two or more core reviewers involved.15:48
dhellmannfor a completely unrelated presentation I pulled some numbers about how many code files were unchanged in nova in the last few years, does anyone want to guess the %?15:49
lbragstaddhellmann: do you remember where you dropped the link to that article?15:49
dhellmannlbragstad : let me find it for you15:49
dhellmannit was here in channel, but I should have it handy15:49
fungidhellmann: i'll guess 95%15:49
fungiif you're going by file count15:49
dhellmannlbragstad :
lbragstaddhellmann: thanks15:49
dhellmannfungi : files unchanged, or changed?15:50
* TheJulia is going to guess for 83%15:50
dhellmannover the time period I looked, and eliminating empty files, and focusing only on .py files, 0 of them had not been changed in some way15:50
cdentyou have to change files all over nova because it is massively coupled15:51
TheJuliawow is right15:51
TheJuliadhellmann: out of curiosity have you done the same with ironic?15:51
dhellmannso yeah, the next thing I want to do is gather more detailed stats over the lifetime of projects, per release, how much change they've seen15:51
dhellmannI didn't. I needed 1 example for a RH presentation to customers to explain to them why carrying patches downstream is bad practice.15:52
TheJuliadhellmann: ahh!15:52
fungigranted, i was thinking more like changed sufficiently that the copyright year merited updating, but i suppose most teams are really bad about ever updating copyright headers15:52
dhellmannlet's say the stats were more in my favor than I expected15:52
dhellmannyeah, this was a very coarse grained check: how many of the same git shas appear in the tree for the current version vs. the older version15:53
cdentthey may have been in your favor, but they point out some other issues15:53
smcginnisdhellmann: "why carrying patches downstream is bad practice" - that would be a very good thing to publish. I've had the conversation more than once.15:53
dhellmanngit diff --stat was producing numbers that showed more files being changed than existed, so I need to work that one out15:53
TheJuliaAgreed, it would be a great thing to publish15:54
smcginnisMaybe including removed files?15:54
dhellmannsmcginnis : kernelcdub's keynote at the RH summit this year touches on it15:54
dhellmannsmcginnis : yeah, that was my theory, and maybe I was interpreting the output incorrectly15:54
* TheJulia puts on her cat staff hat and wishes it was feasible to take her cat with her to Summit15:55
dhellmannI was also asking for the diff stat over a rather long period of time15:55
cdentTheJulia: the couch sig encourages the presence of cats15:55
dhellmannTheJulia : I was just thinking yesterday that it would be nice if we had a quiet room15:55
TheJuliacouch sig ++15:56
dhellmannwhich isn't the same thing, but is more easily portable15:56
smcginnisCouches and cats and quiet. Sounds good to me.15:56
dhellmannand a faraday cage15:57
ttxLast time in vancouver the outside areas were pretty good for that15:57
dhellmannyeah, I'm hoping they're not too crowded this time around15:57
mugsieyeah, the design summit balcony was ++15:57
TheJuliaYeah, I seem to remember a nice dead zone by the tap and barrel15:57
cdentDoes working on the couch sig count as helping to create leaders?15:58
dhellmanncdent : definitely15:58
* TheJulia has effectively derailed the discussion \o/15:58
TheJuliaWell, my cat did15:58
ttxOh well, time to pack15:59
ttxTheJulia: my cat usually does its best hiding in my cabin luggage, so we might see it attend summit one day15:59
TheJuliaThe suitcases are in the bedroom, the cats are already upset :(16:00
johnsomRoughly following the conversation due to competing meetings, but wanted to throw my two cents in.  The biggest issue I have in the Octavia projects is the reviews are highly weighted to the cores.  People don't seem to understand that +1 votes/reviews matter.16:01
cdentour cat develops a limp every time we threaten to travel16:01
johnsomI have been trying to get the word out that +1 votes make a huge difference for the core team and the project.16:02
*** annabelleB has quit IRC16:02
mugsiejohnsom: yeah. or people don;t get that *good* +1s matter16:02
dhellmannttx : safe travels, and see you sat/sun16:02
smcginnisjohnsom: I've been trying to get that message out for years to limited success.16:02
smcginnisOr good -1's too.16:02
ttxso looking forward to getting up at 4am tomorrow morning16:02
johnsomI will totally not merge a patch with a -1 from anyone16:03
smcginnisttx: That sounds fun.16:03
cdentFrom personal experience, I stopped making +1s because I was told that it seemed like I was being too generous[1] and I stopped making -1s because my comments were ignored.16:03
johnsomWe are a team and it matters16:03
dhellmannyeah, I counted -1 as a review but not +1. I want to make the tool smarter to count a +1 following a -1 but haven' tyet16:03
cdent[1] I just wanted to see code that was "okay" merge.16:03
mugsiecdent: well, that is a bigger issue we have in the community16:04
smcginnisI love seeing patches with +1/-1's.16:04
smcginnisAs long as they aren't from people that only seem to blindly apply +1.16:04
cdentalso [1] and too many +1s that disagree with cores is considered statistically naive16:05
jbryceI think your presentation is really good, dhellmann. I'm also not going to be in the meeting Sunday unfortunately (ttx, lsell and mark will be), but I'm happy to catch up with any of you during the week on foundation-related topics that you might want to dive into16:05
cdentso ┻━┻ ︵ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ︵ ┻━┻16:05
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc16:05
dhellmannfor those of you following the API cleanup discussion:
cdentno jbryce at a summit board meeting. I'm glad I won't be there, because otherwise I'd feel all weird and wrong :(16:05
dhellmannjbryce : thanks for the feedback, and the offer. I'm sure we'll catch up at some point during the week.16:06
jbrycemugsie: I'm also interested in finding out about the lcoo, so if you do get something set up, please let me know when16:06
mugsiejbryce: will do16:06
jbrycecdent: I feel weird. This will only be the second one I've missed16:08
cdentI'm going to pretend like you are there.16:08
* smcginnis pictures a cardboard cutout16:08
ttxWe do have that in stock16:09
dhellmannttx: do we have time to get the artists to do a rendition like the super user personas?16:09
smcginnisHaha, nice.16:10
ttxJust needs a bit of cutout work16:11
smcginnisOh wow16:11
dhellmannoh, you can't unsee that16:11
ttxI know, right16:12
smcginnisJust the hair alone.16:12
ttxThe moose is so much on-topic, too16:13
fungii had somehow successfully repressed prior memories of that16:13
jbryceI'll add one of my favorite ttx staff photos
*** eeiden_ has joined #openstack-tc16:40
openstackgerritZane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Note that the old incubation/graduation process is obsolete
*** dklyle has quit IRC16:42
*** eeiden has quit IRC16:42
*** eeiden_ is now known as eeiden16:42
*** hongbin has joined #openstack-tc16:53
lbragstaddhellmann: what does bus factor mean?16:58
mugsielbragstad: if someone is no longer availible to work on something, how bad will it affect said thing17:00
* jroll likes the less morbid "lottery factor"17:00
mugsiejroll: yeah, thats better alright17:00
lbragstadoh - like getting hit by a bus, got it17:01
*** dtantsur is now known as dtantsur|afk17:04
cdentlbragstad: if you don't like that violent imagery, and you go back far enough to remember it, you can also think of it as not terminating your scsi bus17:06
cdentbut really that's just callback to the hit by a bus, so not actually a replacement17:07
lbragstadlol - i was just reading the notes and couldn't resolve the mapping17:08
mugsiebasically, I better look both ways crossing the street on the way home :P17:08
cmurphythe proposal bot on slide 15 also better be careful17:10
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc17:17
zanebcdent: stop making me feel old17:22
*** kumarmn has quit IRC17:22
cdentI'm here for you17:23
cdentdhellmann: did you see ? It's related to both the burnout stuff you mentioned as well as the constraints we put on ourselves because we learn to be our own guards17:35
cdentyou have to read the handwriting in the pics for it to make any sense17:35
dhellmannlbragstad , jroll : yeah, it's maybe not the best phrase, but it's well known17:45
jrolldhellmann: indeed, I just like to spread the optimism of the lottery factor, I don't really have a problem with the bus factor phrase :)17:45
dhellmannor at least I thought it was -- maybe that's a bad assumption17:45
dhellmannI usually use "abducted by aliens" instead17:45
jrollheh, I like it17:46
* cdent is ashamed17:48
dhellmanncdent : I had not seen that tweet17:48
cdentI hadn't connected "lottery factor" with winning the lottery and packing up to a new life17:48
cdentI still saw death17:48
dhellmannas in The Lottery?17:48
cdenteffectively, but not directly17:49
cdentthat was probably in the back of my mind though, if it really is "one of the most famous short stories in the history of American literature"17:49
dhellmannthought provoking ideas in that tweet17:52
dhellmannthe first couple of points of relate, although they're less flashy than "panopticon"17:53
cdentyeah, the stop working so hard stuff aligns, as well with the do-less, generate-more ideas too17:56
jrollcdent: I also liked the following tweet, in a different way:
cdentindeed. I think maybe I wanted to be at this confernce17:57
*** ricolin has quit IRC17:59
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc18:12
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Setup Release Goal Folder for Stein
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: fix stein goals build
*** kumarmn has quit IRC18:14
*** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc18:45
*** annabelleB has quit IRC18:50
*** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc18:56
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc19:03
*** zaneb has quit IRC19:26
*** dtantsur|afk has quit IRC19:29
*** eeiden has quit IRC19:33
*** dtantsur has joined #openstack-tc19:36
*** dtantsur has quit IRC19:40
*** zaneb has joined #openstack-tc19:48
*** dtantsur has joined #openstack-tc19:51
*** annabelleB has quit IRC20:00
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc20:07
fungicdent: zaneb: similar to the scsi analogy, not terminating 10base2 was equally problematic on the network side of things20:15
* fungi had plenty of opportunity to make references to the terminator films both on the networking and storage sides of systems administration20:16
zaneb10base5 4eva20:17
fungioh, fo sho thicknet was where it was at20:20
* zaneb is not actually *that* old20:20
fungithinnet was just out at the edges20:21
* fungi is a little embarrassed to have managed 10base5 to 10base2 bridges20:21
fungialso all manner of assorted serial concentrators, multiplexers and terminals20:21
zanebsometimes I regret never having had the chance to vampire-tap a thicknet cable20:22
zanebbut other times I just carry on with my life :)20:22
fungii can at least say i've only ever vampire-tapped pots20:22
fungi(plain old telephone system, for the acronym-impaired)20:23
*** annabelleB has quit IRC20:26
cdentI enjoy playing with masses of coax t connectors20:27
cdentWell, enjoyed20:27
cdentI have no more20:27
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc20:29
* smcginnis has been around long enough to have used token ring20:35
* dhellmann remembers sneakernet fondly20:54
*** dtantsur has quit IRC21:02
*** dtantsur has joined #openstack-tc21:03
fungicdent: yeah, at one point i had a giant sculpture of random coax connectors (adapters, tees and terminators) on my desk. no idea what eventually happened to it21:06
fungiodds are i decided between one of my moves that i was unlikely to ever need anything besides a type n for 50Ω media21:07
fungier, 75Ω21:09
fungithough ultimately both, i suppose21:11
*** notmyname has quit IRC21:15
mtreinishsmcginnis: the ibm office I used to at had the whole building still wired for token ring, with the old data connectors (the big ones)21:17
mtreinishthey just had adapters in each office to convert it to ethernet21:17
*** annabelleB has quit IRC21:18
smcginnismtreinish: I was in the Rochester office not long ago, and I can state for fact that they *still* have things wired up for it.21:18
*** notmyname has joined #openstack-tc21:18
mtreinishI haven't been to the poughkeepsie office in several years, but I would assume they didn't change anything21:19
smcginnisProbably a safe assumption. ;)21:19
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc21:28
*** edmondsw has quit IRC21:46
*** annabelleB has quit IRC22:19
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc22:22
*** mriedem is now known as mriedem_afk22:36
*** mriedem_afk has quit IRC22:38
*** hongbin has quit IRC22:40
*** cdent has quit IRC22:54
*** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc23:03
*** edmondsw has quit IRC23:08
*** annabelleB has quit IRC23:29
*** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc23:46
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc23:48
fungipretty nuts23:53

Generated by 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!