Thursday, 2018-05-03

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mnaserthrowing this out here .. .. do we want to maybe think about getting projects to switch from rootwrap -> privsep as a community goal?00:07
mnaser(i can bring this up tomorrow but jsut something i spotted now)00:07
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dhellmannmnaser : it's on the list; I think we needed an owner for it01:20
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mnaserdhellmann: I’ve never seen that ether pad before, I’ll book mark it. I was looking at the goals page published on openstack.org02:41
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dhellmannmnaser : I think you may mean this one?
mnaserdhellmann: ah yes, that document03:24
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zanebEmilienM: you're early ;)14:58
EmilienMfor one time I don't have meeting conflict and can properly attend an office hour14:59
ttxI can only attend the first 15-ish minutes15:00
fungitc-members (and anyone else): office hour!15:00
ttxwe seem to have only one nominee for the chair position. Do you think I should wait more before approving Doug ?15:01
EmilienMI think we could give more time, it's only what, 3 days?15:01
ttxok, just did not want to be the blocker here15:02
EmilienMmaybe give it a whole week, so 4 more days?15:02
ttxok, thatworks15:02
dhellmannyeah, I'm fine waiting15:03
fungigiven we don't run formal weekly meetings any longer, i suppose the timing for electing a new chair isn't quite as tight15:03
dhellmannI do want to make sure there's some time for us to prep before the meeting in vancouver15:03
dhellmannbut we can start that without making things formal15:04
fungimakes sense15:04
dhellmannbtw, here are the details for that meeting:
ttxdhellmann: would be great to clarify the meeting time on that Sunday, it's still unclear if it's full day or just afternoon15:04
zanebcdent is the only one who hasn't voted/commented on the chair, and he's on holiday, so actually there's probably no point waiting any further15:05
ttxAlso last time I heard, the TC+UC+Board+Staff dinner would happen on Saturday evening ?15:05
* ttx tries to get confirmation of that15:05
* zaneb changes vote to +115:05
* dhellmann checks his flight times15:06
zanebI wish I had known that before I booked a flight yesterday15:06
dhellmannI feel like I've missed the last few of these because I didn't find out about the plans until too late15:07
mnaseri will rebook my flights to be able to attend the meeting15:08
ttxjust a sec, trying to get confirmation15:08
mnaserfew more summit related commitments came in so i will be coming in earlier to hopefully attend15:08
ttxThere is a pre-summit social event around diversity on Sunday evening, thanks Red Hat15:09
ttxso we proposed to Alan to do the leadership dinner on Saturday instead15:09
ttxbut he did not confirm yet15:09
EmilienMif you need a restaurant recommendation, I'm local ;-)15:10
dhellmanndetails for that diversity event:
dhellmannEmilienM : I'm counting on you for that :-)15:11
ttxEmilienM: I think it happens at your place15:11
dhellmannand how many does your dining room hold?15:11
fungihopefully your living room can fit 50-7515:11
ttxso.. anything else you need from me ? About to disappear15:11
EmilienMI think we can fit if we don't sit lol15:11
EmilienMno, it's very small, renting is pricy downtown15:12
EmilienMttx: indeed, zaneb is right I think we can go ahead with the chair election15:12
fungiso the joint leadership meeting is all day this time, not a board meeting in the morning with the joint leadership meeting in the afternoon? (that's what the agenda seems to imply anyway). if so, great improvement!15:14
dhellmannfungi : yes, Alan said that since the board was able to meet recently and clear their backlog they didn't feel they needed dedicated time that day15:15
ttxdhellmann: let me know if you'd rather wait or I can push the approve button now15:15
ttxI just need to leave in 2 minutes :)15:15
dhellmannttx: let's go ahead, if everyone concurs15:16
ttxI'm fine reverting if anyone else shows up in the next 3 days15:16
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* ttx sneakily retains approval rights15:16
dhellmannttx: sure, that works15:16
dimsLOL ttx15:17
ttxdhellmann: alright, you're in as soon as Zuul is finished with you15:17
* dhellmann has been wrestling with zuul a lot lately15:17
ttxand... I run.15:17
EmilienMcongrats & thanks dhellmann (and thanks ttx for the long term service)15:17
ttx"I'll be back"15:17
dhellmannyes, thanks, ttx! and safe travels15:17
dhellmannOver the past couple of weeks we discussed the idea of checking in on what sponsor companies are contributing to. I have been working on some tools in the goal-tools repository to produce those numbers. If you have specific sorts of ways you would like to see that data, let me know.15:17
dhellmannFor example, I can now feed an arbitrary gerrit query in and get as output how many contributions only sponsor companies have made that match the query.15:18
dhellmannthere is, of course, no documentation for this tool, yet15:18
EmilienMit's an interesting challenge when some contributors don't have proper affiliation (by their emails)15:18
dhellmannyes, the data is very messy15:18
dhellmannI stole the stackalytics organization mapping stuff for this new tool15:19
EmilienMwe have affiliation on but I'm not sure everyone updates it15:19
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EmilienMand I'm not sure there is a public API for this information15:20
dhellmannat the scale of numbers I'm looking at, I don't think a few people here and there without data is a real problem15:20
pabelangerEmilienM: perhaps we should be sending out regular reminders to MLs to have contributors remember to validate their affiliation?15:20
dhellmannthere is an (undocumented) API, which fungi has helped me with15:20
EmilienMdhellmann: can you please link what you started?15:20
dhellmannthe bigger problem isn't with lack of updates (most people don't actually change jobs, that's a thing we see ourselves as selection bias) it's that no one can spell the name of their company the same way twice15:21
dhellmannEmilienM : the who-helped command in openstack/goal-tools15:21
EmilienMso I read the code and for now it's only looking at Gerrit right?15:22
EmilienMwe could think at polling storyboard/launchpad, we have people here filling very nice bugs that help so much (and to me it's a good contribution)15:23
EmilienM(I'm thinking at our QE engineers)15:23
dhellmannyes, it looks at gerrit to find anyone who creates, updates, or votes +2 on a patch15:23
dhellmannthe questions we had were things like "are these companies that keep asking for features actually helping when we start trying to build them?"15:24
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openstackgerritAlex Schultz proposed openstack/governance master: Retire tripleo-incubator
dhellmannand so I was not concerned with bug reports as contributions to answer that question15:24
dhellmannalthough I would normally include a bug report as a form of contribution, of course15:24
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Doug Hellmann nomination for Chair
dhellmannanyway, if you have questions you think we could answer using a tool like that, let me know what they are15:26
EmilienMthe tool looks great15:26
dhellmannin the mean time, I'm producing some charts and graphs of contributions to our goals, help-wanted topics, and some other cross-project areas15:26
dhellmannI hope to have them ready to discuss at the leadership meeting in vancouver15:26
fungidhellmann: yeah, data quality around employer name consistency is something the foundation web devs were going to look into. maybe some common pattern matching and automated rewriting of those entries along with periodically checking a dump of them to see any new patterns they need to add15:28
dhellmannfungi : we have lots of info on names that can be merged into 1 in a yaml file in the goal-tools repo now :-)15:29
dhellmannsome folks seem to like to specify their organization down to the level of the building they work in15:29
fungidhellmann: i'll point them at it, thanks!15:29
dhellmannat least one person who showed up in several queries has their personal mission statement in that field15:30
fungi6 decimal points of precision for the latitude and longitude of their desk chair15:30
dhellmannheh, no, that would be interesting information15:30
zanebdhellmann: lol, there's always one isn't there15:30
dhellmannhow many different ways can you spell "A Division of BigCorp"?15:30
dhellmannanyway, between that and gerrit giving me back partial results for some reviews it has been an interesting project to make this tool in any way robust15:31
dhellmannI have new respect for what the stackalytics folks were trying to do15:31
fungidhellmann: only interesting if they embedded an iot gps into their chair pedestal to auto-update their position as they roll around the room ;)15:31
dhellmannfungi : I'm ok with point-in-time data :-)15:31
fungidhellmann: partial results? pagination issue?15:32
dhellmannfungi : some records are missing names or emails15:32
fungii'm happy to dig into gerrit api results if you have examples15:32
fungithat may also be lack of data in the actual accounts15:32
dhellmannI've hit 1 or 2, the problem is they're 10K into a sequence so it takes a while to get back to them15:33
fungione person recently was having trouble because they had completely removed their name from their gerrit account15:33
dhellmannyeah, I assume it's legitimately missing data. The entire field is not present, which was more surprising (rather than just having an empty string)15:33
fungioh, fun. thanks gerrit!15:33
dhellmannyes, well, that's what I deserve for using [] instead of .get()15:34
fungiand do we have an etherpad for collecting ideas for the board/tc/uc(/kata/zuul?) meeting yet?15:36
fungione tc-related thing which i know seems trivial but has been bugging me (and presumably others) for years that i'd like on the agenda to get the board to either agree to or at least let us know what's involved in fixing: the glaring (and potentially confusing) typo in the technical committee member policy 3.b.i
dhellmannI thought we did but I'm not finding a bookmark to it15:36
dhellmannwe have an email thread:
fungias it's an appendix to the foundation bylaws, i've never been able to get a straight answer on whether it requires a vote of the membership, or assent of the board, or if someone can just fix it (and who has the authority to tell the people with access to fix it that they're allowed to)15:37
dhellmannand now we have an etherpad:
fungii personally know the people with access to fix it, but none of them seem to want to touch it unless someone can tell them it's okay to do so15:39
EmilienMI think one was already created
EmilienMbut empty15:40
mnaseris there a list of etherpads that is maintained somewhere?15:40
dhellmannEmilienM : that is for notes at/during the meeting. This new one is for us to prepare things we want on the agenda15:41
dhellmannmnaser : not really :-(15:41
dhellmannI can share some that I have bookmarked15:42
dhellmannI'll be sending the usual "welcome to the tc" message with some links like that15:42
dhellmanneither today or tomorrow15:42
dhellmannnow that things are official15:42
dhellmannfungi : is there a version of the correction that I can link to somewhere?15:43
fungiyeah, the lack of pad indices in etherpad is seen upstream as a security measure since you can make unguessable pad ids and then either not share them or share the correspondnig non-reversible read-only urls for them15:43
fungidhellmann: i'll stick something on that pad now15:43
dhellmannty, I added the idea to the bottom of the list15:44
fungii've added the proposed correction15:48
mnaserfungi: what about bringing that document under the governance repo somewhere?15:49
fungiwill be nice to fnially have it fixed, as any time we need to refer to that (in discussing electoral topics particularly) i end up having to include an aside explaining what it was supposed to say15:49
mnaserand then that way we can just ask someone to "mirror" what the content is in the website15:49
fungimnaser: it's certainly an option to discuss, though i don't know whether there might be reasons that the foundation executive team or board of directors feel they need to maintain control over the wording in those documents15:50
fungiit's far from the only appendix to the foundation bylaws15:50
dhellmannyeah, the bylaws are a whole extra level of legal documentation so I can see them not wanting to put them in a place where just anyone might have the ability to change them15:51
fungiand so far they tend to seek input from legal counsel before modifying anything in those15:51
fungithe fact that we carry a _copy_ of the icla in our gerrit deployment rather than linking to the official published version was even a little iffy back when i first proposed that solution years ago15:52
fungiand made sure to get foundation executive review on the embedded copy we're using before it merged, to confirm that things like slight formatting differences weren't a problem15:53
fungiit's been argued that the bylaws appendices aren't _actually_ part of the bylaws, so not subject to the same rules for modification... that might mean we could move one or more of them somewhere else if we want but it's definitely a bigger discussion15:55
fungiand because it's in some way attached to the bylaws, nobody ever seems to want to discuss it15:55
mnaseri see16:00
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mnaserso something i've been thinking about is making upgrades easier for users.  one of the ways to allow for flexible upgrades as an operator is maintaining containers for each service (lxc, not docker) in order to have a different set of packages work together17:16
mnaserthe concern is that yum install openstack-cinder will upgrade python2-oslo-db and then break everything else on the system17:16
mnaseri was wondering if maybe we should start at least having something regarding making libraries we use (at least the oslo ones) maybe always keep a one cycle compatibility17:17
mnaserthat way i can have upgraded libraries and older services can use those upgraded libraries17:17
mnasernot sure if i worded myself well.. but this is something that simplifies the upgrade story which has obviously been a big pain17:18
mnaseropen for fair async discussion17:18
dhellmannfungi : it also feels overly burdensome to have to go through the whole blyaws change process to fix an obvious typo17:22
dhellmanntc-members: a timely post related to our discussion of contribution rates for goals and other "commons" tasks:
fungiooh, looks like a fun article indeed17:31
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dhellmannI grabbed the book she references, because these days all I read are books like that18:06
fungireading that article, i actually feel a lot better about the measures we've (inadvertently in some cases) hit on which seem to be working out19:01
fungibut definitely helps point out things which we should keep up19:02
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dhellmannfungi : the word from Alan is that he thinks that change will require a vote, so he would like to do that at the next board election. I'm waiting for information about what we can do to ensure the topic is placed on the ballot, and I will relay that when I have it. Would you still like the topic on the agenda for the meeting in Vancouver?21:13
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fungidhellmann: if possible, mainly because counsel will (i think?) be present, and i've heard previously that it's not technically a bylaws change because it's not in the appendix so shouldn't require a vote of the membership21:28
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/constellations master: fix the host in the .gitreview file
fungier, rather that it's not technically a bylaws change because it _is_ in an appendix21:30
dhellmannAlan refered to "9.2.(d) of the bylaws" as being related to changing the “Technical Committee Member Policy”(Appendix 4)21:31
dhellmannI haven't looked at what that says21:31
fungibut yeah, this ambiguity is why a typo has gone 5 years since being noticed and not getting corrected21:31
funginot gotten corrected21:32
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/constellations master: add basic sphinx setup
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fungiif we can get confirmation that it does need a vote of the membership, then i'm cool with it going onto the next board election ballot... just looking for confirmation one way or the other22:13
fungiand, yes, sad that a confusing but obvious typo in an appendix of the bylaws requires this extreme level of scrutiny22:14
dhellmannfungi : yeah, I'm waiting for the next reply in the email thread about it to come in22:16
fungiodds are radcliffe needs to say one way or the other22:19
dhellmannthat's who we're waiting for22:20
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