Thursday, 2018-03-22

pabelangerand the preliminary results are in:
pabelangerttx: fungi: how does one now notify foundation for trade mark check for the naming?00:34
dmsimardaw yeah, solar00:36
* dmsimard cheers00:36
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persiaThe results of trademark searches are informative: while I didn't check the areas of interest, it takes a while to get far enough down on the list to get a term that isn't registered somewhere.  Now to wait for qualified counsel.00:44
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fungipabelanger: i've brought your poll results to their attention, thanks!02:20
fungistein was a close second02:24
* fungi is not so secretly hoping stein still becomes the top _viable_ pick02:24
fungispeaking of people who have the freedom to collaborate at odd hours, it's time i started this last kernel rebuild and let it run whilst i get some shuteye02:30
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smcginnisIn my amatuer verification, it looks like "solar" should be OK -
smcginnisWell that didn't work well.13:32
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persiasmcginnis: Depends on the field-of-interest considered by the vetting council.  There is coverage for scientific data analytic systems, electronic account services for finance, large computer networks for finance, application service provider featuring computer software for providing access to via a computer network, etc.13:40
persiasome of that may overlap with some of openstack.  I am not qualified to have an opinion.13:41
smcginnisGood point.13:41
smcginnisI suppose that could be tricky with things like the "Solar Software Summit".13:41
fungialso, in this case the vetting council is a vetting counsel13:51
fungiat least initially, and then i suppose a council when marketing weighs in13:52
smcginnisThey can leave the results on the console.14:04
* smcginnis goes away before he's hit14:04
persiafungi: Singular?  Interesting.  I would have expected a council of councillors qualified to provide counsel14:08
smcginnisIt would be a consolation to fungi if stein is picked.14:09
fungipersia: i was referring to the foundation's "legal counsel" (which may consist of multiple counselors)14:10
fungior rather, may be provided by multiple counselors14:11
persiaAh, yes, counselor, rather than councillor.14:11
persiaI was mostly having fun with words, although it is my experience that often folk like to have their opinions checked for this sort of thing.14:12
fungibut you're right in that it's not just limited to legal counsel, but also passes through marketing and public relations vetting as well so we avoid names which may be legally unencumbered but reflect poorly on the project for other reasons14:13
fungi(c.f., the "lemming" debate)14:13
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* fungi still wanted lemming to win, has poor taste in names14:13
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persiaI don't recall precisely, but when the results were posted, I was surprised how far I had to go down the list before finding an awkward reference.  I do hope the folk actually vetting are less wary of potential complications.14:18
persiaErr, before not finding an awkward reference, rather14:18
fungithey've generally been fairly forgiving in the past14:18
fungii worry about spandau mainly for the wwii era use of spandau prison (which in english searches at least is the first hit for "spandau") as a forerunner of the nazi concentration camps14:20
hongbinhi, are tc going to move the links as proposed by this patch ?14:22
fungiso might carry negative connotation for reasons similar to why we crossed off meiji14:22
persia"meiji" makes me think of chocolate, but I do recognise I may have been exposed to different media than some folk.14:24
persiaPlus Mitaka is really cool, because 三鷹 contains a character officially banned by the education ministry.14:25
persia(it means "Hawk")14:25
fungiis the alternative to just spell it out in kana?14:26
persiaBut it is considered too complicated to teach in school.14:26
persiaYes, the official government position is that it should be written in kana.  There is an exception for proper names, which is how the district preserves the character (and so it was on swag)14:26
fungihongbin: i have no idea. someone has been going around proposing lots of tiny changes to canonicalize urls which are currently referring to redirects. i tend to ignore those changes but others may end up reviewing/approving them at some point14:27
hongbinfungi: ack, thanks14:28
fungiit seems to me more like the sort of change someone would make when generally updating that file rather than being important enough to change on its own, but i recognize that my opinion is not necessarily shared by everyone14:29
cdenttc-members and the rest of the world, it's office hours time15:00
fungiyou just beat me to the enter key15:00
ttxWe have a bunch of changes that will be finally approved tomorrow, so now is the last chance to object to those15:02
ttxThat includes the EM proposal, the Interop test location proposal15:03
ttxThe PowerStackers rename15:03
smcginnisAjutant seems like it is going to need a lot more discussion.15:04
ttxYes... triggers a bit of "product fit" discussions we ahve shied away from historically15:04
ttxbut which I think we should have in that case15:04
ttxLike is OpenStack better with it in or out15:04
ttxmore or less confusing, more or less interoperable...15:05
EmilienMsmcginnis: I was about to propose we discuss it today :)15:05
smcginnisAgree. My biggest concern is the overlap with mistral. It sounds like it can do a lot of great things, but I need a better picture of what it can do that mistral can't.15:05
dhellmannI'm still trying to understand exactly what Adjutant *is*15:05
smcginnisAnd why it would be better to have a new project for those differences vs just working within mistral.15:05
fungii like that it brings a missing feature for public cloud providers: specifically, self-service account creation15:05
ttxI know what it was, but it seems to have grown a more fuzzy scope15:05
fungibut i agree it seems to suffer from scope creep15:06
smcginnisI guess that's the problem with a general purpose and flexible framework. It can be interpreted in many different ways depending on your desired use case.15:06
fungithat age old developer trap of "ooh, i bet i can generalize this api so it can be used for anything"15:06
smcginnisA whole herd of elephants.15:06
dhellmannfungi : i would *love* the project if it was just about account management features15:06
smcginnisdhellmann: ++15:07
ttxAlso before we dive into that rabbit herring -- wanted to plug again15:07
smcginnisI do think that is a commonly needed and missing component for us.15:07
EmilienM is what worried me the most15:07
EmilienMit's doing things that you can already do with a Mistral workflow (and like d0ugal said, we already do it well in TripleO)15:07
fungithe adjutant debate is reminding me of concerns we raised with glare (and its desire to be a general purpose system for "storing stuff")15:07
johnthetubaguyEmilienM: isn't that also done by the "give me a network feature", well sort of, but I get your point15:09
smcginnisfungi: Same.15:09
fungittx: fail. you can't lead with the rathole topic and then expect to steer us to paperwork ;)15:09
EmilienMjohnthetubaguy: yeah exactly15:09
pabelangerdhellmann: fungi: +1 to just account management features15:09
johnthetubaguybeen working with some folks around federation recently, so the account management is a hot topic for me, I should look more closely15:10
jrollso the quota change request got me interested in adjutant, especially given it has an admin approval workflow - can mistral do things like that? also I could be wrong, but I seem to remember adjutant could take actions or sync data between regions or openstack installations, can mistral do those things?15:12
EmilienMi'm calling mistral folks15:13
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EmilienMthrash: hey15:13
thrashEmilienM: hi15:13
johnthetubaguyjroll: isn't that kingbird or something15:14
jrollwe have lots of downstream code to handle syncing accounts and such between our openstack clusters, I'd love to have that upstream (and the pluggability is helpful for some of the craziness we do)15:14
EmilienMthrash: we're discussing about and how it overlaps with what provides Mistral already15:14
jrolljohnthetubaguy: oh my, I hadn't seen this :)15:14
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d0ugalEmilienM: Hey15:14
ttxthe rabbit hole now can fit the elephant in the room15:14
EmilienMd0ugal: hey15:14
johnthetubaguyjroll: I have a feeling we need to get lots of interested people in the same room here, somehow!15:14
TheJuliattx: Just an elephant?15:15
EmilienMd0ugal: we're discussing about today15:15
jrolljohnthetubaguy: story of our lives :)15:15
* johnthetubaguy nods15:15
* dhellmann wonders about ttx's animal menagerie theme for today15:15
EmilienMd0ugal, thrash: one of the question dropped here was if mistral was able to manage admin resources/workflows, also if mistral was able to take action between regions or openstack setups (which seems to be doable in adjutant)15:16
d0ugalEmilienM: I think the answer to both is yes15:16
jrolld0ugal: admin approval workflows, to be specific, e.g. user requests a quota change and an admin has to approve15:16
fungilet's not let m o r d r e d know about the animal menagerie15:16
jrollheh, wet cats are so fun though :P15:17
* fungi has had enough wet cats for one week ;)15:17
d0ugaljroll: I'm not sure what specific requirements that would have?15:17
cmurphyjroll: why do you sync accounts rather than using a shared external identity provider?15:17
persiacmurphy: Not everyone supports shared external providers?15:18
fungibut i suppose the question is why someone would choose not to support shared external providers15:18
jrollcmurphy: I don't honestly know all the details well enough to say, we do have an external provider but there's also data we need to sync I guess15:18
* jroll is still new here15:19
dhellmannafter my initial confusion, I'm less concerned with the overlap with mistral's features than I am with the sense that adjutant is being set up as a "put all of your non-interoperable APIs here" service15:19
fungithat way lies madness15:19
TheJuliacmurphy: it could just be operational or security requirements, like environments could sync/live and have data and some could be abandoned with only older accounts from before the sync was turned off15:19
ttxdhellmann: I'm a bit concerned by both15:19
thrashdhellmann: I would agree with that... In my very small about of reading...15:20
dhellmannthe feature that distinguishes mistral is that cloud consumers can upload workflows15:20
ttxAlso lack of clear focus is not the best way to attract new contributors15:20
dhellmannso that's workflow as a service, vs. deployer workflows15:20
cdentdhellmann: yeah, I think that's main distinction15:20
cmurphyTheJulia: i'm trying to understand the specific case and how keystone isn't able to fulfill it with what it provides15:21
persiadhellmann: That is probably a distinction that is meaningful to many audiences.  Is it sufficient to avoid feature overlap?15:21
TheJuliacmurphy: makes sense15:21
dhellmannpersia : it avoids feature overlap, but opens up the issues of interoperability and lack of focus15:21
dhellmannis adjutant *a* service, or a framework for building lots of different services?15:21
persiacmurphy: The use case I heard most from Public Cloud is self-service signup, which they reported was hard in keystone.  That might be fixed by now.15:21
dhellmannand if it's lots of services, how does that fit into the interoperability picture?15:22
fungiwhat was the network-oriented api project which distinguished itself by supporting extensible api definitions? now i'm forgetting the name15:22
ttxdhellmann: one question I haven't dived into yet is whether Adjutant functions could have been implemented in Mistral, and if yes, why they have been done separately15:22
d0ugaldhellmann: I got the feeling it wasn't a service, not like the others15:22
dhellmannfungi : I think I know the one you mean but can't remember the name either. I think that one was extensible as a development feature, rather than a deployment feature.15:22
cmurphypersia: we don't have self-service signup solved, but i was more curious about the syncing15:22
dhellmannat least that was the messaging I got from one of their more recent presentations15:22
dhellmannif it's the same service15:22
johnthetubaguypersia: cmurphy: FWIW, been looking at how EGI uses co-manage to delegate who belongs in your project, in the external IdP, but not sure that is the case here15:23
dhellmannd0ugal : interesting. I got the opposite impression.15:23
ttxIf it's a way to easily add one-off APIs I feel like it will hurt interoperability15:24
d0ugaldhellmann: well, I mean, it is a service - but for operators only I guess. That is probably why it feels different15:24
thrashI think the part that strikes me the most is the use of the exact same terms as Mistral... Workflow, Tasks, Actions.15:24
dhellmannd0ugal : except that users trigger the APIs, right?15:25
dhellmann"I need my password reset" was one of the examples15:25
d0ugalI think I'm finding it hard to explain what I mean, I tried in my comment on the review.15:25
dhellmannnow if there was a canonical password reset API with deployer-specific implementation, that would be OK15:25
thrashdhellmann: that is definitely solvable with Mistral.15:25
d0ugalthrash: the naming could be very confusing.15:25
cdentdhellmann: the apis are behind web pages was my read15:26
dhellmannbut if every deployer writes their own thing and the APIs are all different, and then maybe besides account management there's a "do something random to my network" API then that starts to feel odd15:26
cdentso human interaction, not code interaction15:26
johnthetubaguycdent: they do ship a CLI though15:26
dhellmanncdent : ok, that's interesting. I assumed there would have to be a UI, but didn't pick up that this service was providing the UI, too15:26
ttxIt's definitely one we need to dive into before making a call15:27
johnthetubaguyhow were you thinking we "dive into" it? schedule in person discussion?15:28
cdentdhellmann: I think the difficult is around what it can do versus what it does do15:28
persiaAre the Adjutant folk expected to be represented at Forum?  Maybe that could be added to the TC session list?15:28
EmilienMsummit is not that far, we could maybe discuss there?15:28
dhellmanncdent : as I said on the review, all of our services are written in a language we can use to implement anything. I'm more concerned with having a good idea of what the team may end up wanting to make it do15:29
pabelangeryah, with CLI tools, it is natural for me to say, maybe this is something ansible could do. But behind a web page, doesn't really work15:29
* cdent nods at dhellmann 15:29
pabelangerunless you look into something like tower to trigger something via API15:29
dhellmannthe way it's pitched right now it doesn't feel like any of our other deliverables15:29
dhellmannit's not a library15:30
dhellmannit's not a client15:30
dhellmannthough it has one15:30
dhellmannit's not a fixed-API service15:30
dhellmannit's not a "Foo as a service" thing15:30
d0ugalso, what is it? :)15:30
dhellmannright. and maybe we need a new category? but maybe not.15:31
johnthetubaguyisn't it a set of REST APIs with a client and a UI?15:31
cdentI'm reminded of the discussion here:
thrashfeels more like a bolt-on than a core component15:31
cdentmaybe we should just wait until there is demand, rather than trying to bring it about15:31
ttxIf it's an API factory, it's more like Gluon, and back then we rejected it because it was more of a differentiation engine15:31
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : is it? all of the docs talk about deployers adding their own rest APIs to it.15:32
fungidhellmann: aha! now i remember what it is (was?) called: gluon15:32
dhellmannttx: thank you, yes, gluon15:32
fungioh, wow ttx brought it up just as i finally found the name via a web search15:32
dhellmannfrom your fingers, through google, to ttx's brain15:33
fungiwell, thankfully not google, but yes15:33
fungi(maybe duckduckgo got it from google, i don't really know)15:33
smcginnisSo most of the worlds search engines are powered by ttx's brain?15:33
johnthetubaguydhellmann: true, I am unsure15:34
ttxI prefer DuckDuckGo15:34
fungismcginnis: i think that must be it15:34
ttxsmcginnis: reality is actually a lot more scary15:34
* dhellmann wants a "Hey, Thierry" voice assistant15:34
fungispeaking of which, it does seem that gluon is still under (slow but continuing) development. most recent activity was early january15:34
pabelangerI'd also be interested if there was any negative feedback from using the public polling for 'S' release, over all I think it went well. But some people did complain about 'already voted' due to shared IP addressing15:35
ttxI'm very happy that Gluon exists... I just think it would hurt "OpenStack" if it was made a part of it15:35
ttxby introducing competing APIs and fostering non-interoperability15:36
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ttxand my fear (but I might have understood badly, which is why I want to dive into code and run Adjutant a bit) is that Adjutant is in the same category15:36
EmilienMIf I reached out Adjutant's devs, would we have space at Forum for human interactions?15:37
ttxEmilienM: I would be definitely interested15:37
ttx+Mistral devs15:37
ttxCatalystIT is NZ-based though, so not sure they will travel to Vancouver15:37
EmilienMd0ugal, thrash : do you know who (if not you?) is going from Mistral folks?15:37
d0ugalEmilienM: hopefully thrash is going15:38
thrashEmilienM: I'm not slated to go just yet.15:38
ttxcdent: the main difference with that cncf toc issue is that they are blessing separate open source projects, while we are arguably discussing addition of components into a product15:39
EmilienMfirst thing is I can reach them out and see if they are going15:39
EmilienMthen I could try to arrange some time to meet and talk, maybe 30min or something15:39
ttxEmilienM: I'm a bit concerned to stall that discussion until May15:40
persiaMy memory of the start of the gluon project was that the other API didn't meet needs,  As the other API matures, the need for gluon reduces.  (I haven't been involved with gluon since 2016)15:40
EmilienMttx: I'm sure we could make progress in the meantime, maybe we could ask them to join a TC office hour, to have interaction on IRC maybe?15:41
ttxEmilienM: I would continue async and book a slot for discussing it at the Forum, just in case15:41
ttxI don't feel like we NEED in person discussion to make progress right now, the discussion is just starting15:42
ttxWe just expect to need in-person discussion at one point, so let's provision space for it15:42
EmilienMttx: how can we book a slot for the Forum?15:43
jrollit seems like we have a couple of solid questions - 1) what does this do that mistral cannot? 2) how do we  ensure interoperability (or can we at all)? seems like someone could write these up on the ML to start15:43
ttxEmilienM: glad you ask!15:43
fungipabelanger: my experience with the public polling via civs model is that it worked well. i'm still mildly concerned that we need to be looking into at least having the ability to run an instance of civs ourselves in case something ever happens to the one at cornell15:43
ttxEmilienM: add it to
jroll(I say ML because I see no emails ever about adjutant)15:43
persia+1 on self-hosting CIVS.15:43
cdentttx, yes, I know, it was only a tangential reminder, more as ammo for asking the usual question of "what if we just wait until there's demand?"15:44
fungipersia: the -1 on self-hosting civs is that it currently serves as an (ostensibly) unbiased third party when we're conducting elections15:44
fungiso there's of course a trade-off15:44
jrollcdent: how much demand would we wait for? clearly at least one cloud provider demands this15:45
dhellmannjroll : good point. Adrian has been pretty responsive on the review, but it's not necessarily the best forum for more detailed discussion.15:45
persiafungi: The ostensibility is the part that makes me not care, but I can see how perceptions may differ15:45
pabelangerfungi: yah, assuming everybody is okay with self hosting, might be a good thing to do15:45
cdentjroll: I don't mean demand for use. I'm suggesting that we should wait until there are plenty of users before something becomes official15:45
fungipersia: though maybe as the ci/cd community absorbs more of the service-running side of the infra team, we can present a little more potential for appearing unbiased about hosted election tooling15:46
cdentAnd I'm not suggesting that as "the right thing to do" but rather as a strawman15:46
cdentto see how it feels15:46
jrollcdent: I see :)15:46
EmilienMttx: done15:46
fungijroll: the review suggested at least two cloud providers are running it actually15:46
clarkbpabelanger: my take away from it was that only 300 something people voted which implies maybe we don't need to do a massive 20k user poll?15:46
cdentGenerally speaking I'd prefer we just accept people who aren't obviously horrible, if they came with resources15:46
dhellmannI think if this existed when we were building the cloud at Dreamhost we would have been very interested in it.15:47
persiacdent: Even if the resources are constrained to their special corner of the table?15:47
clarkbif we want to go back to private we could make the poll opt in via a sign up list maybe? I imagine the list of people interested would be manageable in that case15:47
cdentpersia: In this case I was thining rather globally like "ways to compensate for their ci load"15:48
persiaclarkb: public poll or massive-private-poll are both easier to administer15:48
pabelangerclarkb: yah, that too. Seemed like a very small number of users actually voted. I wonder if that was also due to not emailing them directly15:48
cdentwhich I agree is rather vague15:48
clarkbpersia: except that civs melts down when we ask them to send 20k emails15:48
clarkbpersia: but 400 emails should be doable15:48
dhellmannhow many people voted in the last naming poll?15:49
dhellmannif we're getting roughly the same numbers, maybe a public poll is just fine?15:49
pabelangerdhellmann: not sure, looking for that info15:49
persiaclarkb: Difference being that folk have to coordinate the electoral roles, provide active support to outliers, etc.  In practice, it's usually only one or two for the first few days of a poll, but still.15:50
pabelanger1794 votes for R15:51
fungii suppose having a ballot land in your inbox does impact turnout15:51
dhellmannthe next question is if we care that the turnout levels changed, given that the same number of people (or more) were *able* to vote15:52
pabelanger1899 for Q and 2681 for P15:52
pabelangerso, we are down a fair bit15:52
dhellmanncan we address that with more publicity? maybe emailing the 20k people the link to the public poll?15:54
ttxdhellmann: another issue with public polling is the restriction to one vote per IP15:55
persiadhellmann: We can certainly do that, but we'd need to make arrangements with the spam folk to make sure they knew we were doing it responsibly.15:56
pabelangerif we email 20k people the public link, why not just do the private?15:56
dhellmannttx: ah, true15:56
pabelangerI think it was the emailing of 20k people was the issue, not voting of 20k people15:56
persiapabelanger: cornell servers take a long time to send that much mail.15:56
dhellmannpabelanger : I thought civs had trouble with that many ballots15:56
ttxdhellmann: not really15:56
pabelangerdhellmann: i think it just too a while like persia says to email them out15:56
ttxWe'd likely need to patch the mail sending routine to make it more reliable15:57
ttxCan't wait to patch some Perl, will remember the days i was young15:57
* smcginnis shudders15:57
dhellmannwell, this is the first time we did it. the turnout was lower, but the results seem similar (in that the top contender doesn't in any way evoke the location)15:57
pabelangerYah, I had high hopes for spree, but landed #315:58
smcginnispabelanger: Based on past naming, that's still got a pretty good chance.15:59
pabelangersmcginnis: agree, lets see what foundation thinks15:59
dhellmannwasn't the top contender "solar"?16:00
* dhellmann doesn't have the link handy16:00
jrollyeah, solar, stein, spree16:00
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fungisolar, 🍺, spree16:08
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smcginnisfungi: You're really wanting to be able to use that a lot, aren't you? :)16:11
* fungi already has ideas for an OpenStein logo16:12
jrollif stein ends up on top, we'll need to get openstack-branded steins16:12
zanebfungi: if you can see the beer through it, it's not a stein by definition16:12
fungizaneb: details ;)16:12
* jroll will help fund the kickstarter16:12
fungizaneb: clearly this means we need to propose a new unicode codepoint16:13
fungi"BEER MUG, OPAQUE"16:14
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dhellmannjroll : if there aren't openstack branded steins regardless of the name, I don't even know what we're doing any more16:20
dhellmannfungi : ++16:20
jrolldhellmann: true that16:21
* fungi suggests to swag store maintainers16:21
* persia mumbles about teetotallers in our midst16:25
* smcginnis notes you can put tea in a stein, as wrong as that would feel16:26
* jroll thinks coffee would be appropriate in a stein16:26
* fungi has so done that16:27
fungi(very stout coffee)16:27
smcginnis(or a good coffee stout)16:27
jrollas opposed to a very coffee stout :P16:27
fungithink of it as a gradient16:27
smcginnisKind of like a sundial? You can tell the time of day based on the liquid in the stein?16:28
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dhellmannsmcginnis : way to work the "solar" theme back into the conversation. Nicely done.16:29
smcginnisdhellmann: I guess I've just been on a spree today.16:29
* dhellmann slow claps16:30
* cdent shuns smcginnis 16:30
smcginniscdent: Go ahead. Pretend like you didn't laugh.16:31
dhellmannwe should schedule a forum session for a dad joke competition16:31
* cdent has no sense of humor16:31
* jroll registers the Production Undercloud Network SIG16:32
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dmsimardfungi used an emoji ? /me takes screenshot19:35
fungidmsimard: i don't know what an emoji is (something like an emoticon?) but i did paste an extended unicode codepoint19:36
fungiutf-8 encoded19:37
fungibecause the associated glyph for it is evocative of one of our preferred release name candidates19:37
dmsimardfungi: there's even an open source emoji font:
fungii've clearly fallen into a millennial trap19:41
clarkbfungi: the problem with that character is source code pro (my current termianl font) doesn't have a glyph for it19:41
fungisounds like an obvious deficiency in your font choice19:42
fungi(to be fair, the commodore64 font i use in my terminal lacks a glyph for that codepoint as well)19:42
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