Tuesday, 2018-02-13

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ttxRe: glance... Glance is far from single-vendor. It's just not really diverse. Our standards for "diverse affiliation are pretty high, much higher than most open source projects could ever afford. Like Kubernetes was/is not diverse by our standards (too much reliance on Google, then Google+Red Hat)08:44
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Fourth phase of the deprecation of trove-integration  https://review.openstack.org/54100708:55
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Mark the completion of Tempest plugin split goal for Telemetry team  https://review.openstack.org/54119508:55
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* ttx grabs coffee08:58
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Mark the completion of tempest plugin split goal for Congress Team  https://review.openstack.org/54120108:58
cdenttc-members, here we go for office hours. Who is here?09:00
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Dedicate Queens release to Shawn Pearce  https://review.openstack.org/54131309:01
cdentttx (when you're back with coffee), is there an existing plan for associating that ^ with actual release announcements?09:02
ttxI'll be in touch with the marketing folks to make sure that appears on release messaging09:03
ttxIt seems we have some agreement on the PTG post-lunch presentation content. I'll make that official and let the various speakers know09:04
ttxI'm off next week so if you have PTG-related stuff to ask me please do it this week09:06
ttxotherwise diablo_rojo will be your contact09:06
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* ttx reads latest comments on the goals09:07
cdentI didn't respond on the post-lunch thread in the sense of "silence means approval"09:07
cdentlooks like a good plan to me09:07
* cmurphy lazy09:07
cdenta virtue09:08
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ttxso.. not much new on the goal comments. People still seem to be able to live by debug+mox, although the mox one has more limited support09:10
ttxWe need to make the call though as people need to organize PTG stuff around that09:10
ttxAny objection to approval now ?09:11
ttx(I'm asking as goal selection being non-binary decision falls a bit outside of our usual rules)09:11
cdentI'm fine with debug+mox but I think we should be prepared for potental adjustments at the PTG as it is likely plenty of people aren't thinking hard about it yet09:12
ttxI guess one way to make it binary would be to have a change that would depend on both mox+debug and gather approval on that09:12
ttxyeah, it's not as if we cannot adjust09:12
cdentWe might want to add "the goals process" to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PTG-Dublin-TC-topics09:13
ttxThat's the champion(s) job to drive the goal09:13
ttxdoing that now09:13
cdentIt would be good to find some more things for that09:14
ttxJust added "Approving new project teams in the new age of a more focused OpenStack / OSF new strategic focus areas"09:18
ttxsince a direct discussion on that is timely I think09:19
ttxcdent: the scheduled TC meeting is Friday morning, not afternoon09:19
ttxalthough I'm fine continuing in the afternoon09:20
cdentI think dhellman wrote that09:20
ttxhe was the one asking for Friday morning :)09:20
ttxfearing people might start disappearing Friday afternoon09:20
cdentfriday morning is less ideal for me because nova will likely still be going strong09:21
cdentbut I think most of the nova stuff I care about will be on wednesday09:21
cdentand it would be a relief to have a change of pace09:21
ttxWe are having the TC meeting in the "world domination" room09:21
ttxThat board table looks just awesome09:22
cmurphyseems appropriate09:22
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ttxI want a white cat09:22
ttxNumber 2, report09:22
cdentthere need to be a few old phones scattered about09:22
johnthetubaguy+1 on white cat and old phones09:24
ttxOK, approving the goals now, and rebasing Doug's process change09:24
johnthetubaguy+1 for approving them (after reading scrollback)09:25
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add Rocky goal to toggle the debug option at runtime  https://review.openstack.org/53460509:29
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add Rocky goal to remove mox  https://review.openstack.org/53236109:38
openstackgerritThierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: update goal process to use storyboard for tracking  https://review.openstack.org/53444309:41
ttxcmurphy, cdent, johnthetubaguy I rebased dhellmann's change and fixed Colleen's nit. If you pile up your +1s I'll approve it now09:42
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: update goal process to use storyboard for tracking  https://review.openstack.org/53444310:21
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TheJuliaWow, that room does look like we would be plotting "world domination".... appropriate I guess. ;)14:10
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* dims catches up14:16
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* persia prefers darker hardwoods and green lampshades for world domination plotting14:43
cdentI'm struggling with enthusiasm for the tc report lately. I'm not sure if that's because we've been in a cycle of PTG prep and goal discussion and nothing else, or what. But it is moderately concerning.15:16
persiacdent: By "lately", do you mean "the past couple weeks" or "the past couple months"?  If the former, I'd suggest blaming the PTG.  If the latter, it would be interesting to know what would enthuse you?  Do you need more concrete progress?  More activity?  Are you unhappy with either decisions taken or the process by which they are taken?15:21
cdentGood questions...15:22
cdentIt's hard to be sure on the timeline because there was also a (long) period of illness in there which contributes to a sense of flatness15:22
cdentI've always felt like more concrete progress and activity should be happening, but not always sure on the form it should take. I'm not unhappy with decisions that have been taken.15:23
cdentI think the TC's behavior reflects some of the challenges in the OpenStack code: changing big things is hard, so energy is spent on details (which don't always matter).15:24
persiaIn that case, I suggest pushing out fairly boring reports for the next couple weeks (as we all anticipate not much happening), and see if your enthusiasm is restored by the discussions at the PTG.15:24
cdentyeah, good advice15:24
persiaI don't disagree with your evaluation of TC behaviour, but details do matter, and I've seen a few folk spend a fair amount of their own time doing (rather than deliberating) to ensure the details are clean, so I expect that exposing more of that (easier when you're not recovering and catching up) will help.15:25
cdentOh, yeah, I'm not saying they never matter, but rather that the great energy that people have needs outlets and when barries of many types are encountered it can often be the case that we follow habits.15:27
cdentThis isn't entirely a bad thing (or even mostly). But more a thing to watch.15:27
smcginnisI think the time in the cycle may be a big factor there.15:28
smcginnisAnd the illness certainly would have an impact I think.15:28
persiaAll true, although some of the detail work I've seen seems to be in the area of clearing barriers, so I'm hoping that can be perceived positively.15:28
smcginniscdent: But even with limited content, I think there are a lot of folks that appreciate your write ups.15:28
pabelanger100%, I know I do15:29
cdentYeah, I get a fair amount of value from writing them and they force me to reflect on the past week (same with the rp updates) which greatly helps to organize my thinking. So even from the "just me" standpoint they are valuable.15:30
cdentMy comment was mostly about a lingering ennui and being unsure what it meant.15:30
dtroyercdent: I think it means it is February15:31
cdentI think "time in cycle" is probably a big factor.15:31
smcginnisdtroyer: Another relevant factor. ;)15:31
persia+1 on Feburary in the northern hemisphere being a source of a sense of ennui15:31
cdentdtroyer: yes, my son just recently said to me "Being ill is doing terrible things to my mood15:31
cdentWhich is already shit, because February"15:31
cdentHowever, even despite February, I still think the lingering sense of "are we doing as much as we should" deserves contemplation.15:32
cdentIt may turn out the answer is "yes"15:32
dtroyerI have not experienced most seasons in the southern hemisphere, but my personal feeling is it isn't the winter/cold as much as recovering from the disruption of year-end holidays and whatnot and it takes a few weeks to really set in15:33
dmsimarddhellmann: with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/534443/ merged, is that a turning point where infrastructure cores should no longer let new projects be created without storyboard ?15:34
dmsimarddhellmann: I know that review is specific to goals -- and there's a goal for Storyboard in general as well, but right now we're not enforcing new projects to use storyboard15:36
dmsimardAJaeger mentions there is likely a difference in applying a policy like that between "official" (governed) projects and those that are not15:37
dmsimardI suppose at one point the ultimate goal is to drop launchpad and Canonical's SSO in favor of openstackid15:37
smcginnisI believe that's the plan.15:38
smcginnisBut I don't think we have a policy enforcing storyboard for any new projects.15:38
smcginnisMore like recommendations.15:38
cdentIt would make sense, for new projects, to require storyboard15:40
cdentotherwise we are creating drag15:40
dmsimardcdent: yeah, that was my train of thought as well, we are creating technical debt by letting projects start to use launchpad15:40
smcginnisWe could add that to our new project criteria and make it official.15:41
dmsimardSounds like something worthy of TC discussion :D15:41
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diablo_rojo_phonI have a to-do to update the project creator and cookie cutter to remove mentions of launchpad in favour of storyboard.16:31
diablo_rojo_phoncdent: smcginnis dhellmann ^^16:32
smcginnisdiablo_rojo_phon: Great!16:32
dmsimarddiablo_rojo_phon: is that written down in a spec somewhere ?16:42
diablo_rojo_phondmsimard: I think I have it in a storyboard story about migrating projects to storyboard.16:44
diablo_rojo_phonThat's a ridiculous sentence.16:44
cdentis a good story16:45
dmsimarddiablo_rojo_phon: okay, thanks!16:45
dmsimardWas someone taking an action to formally discuss whether we should let new projects create on launchpad ?16:46
diablo_rojoIf anyone was curious: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/200087616:47
dmsimarddiablo_rojo: quite the story indeed16:47
persiaAdding storyboard to the new project requirements would reduce the effort involved in managing the tasks associated with that story16:54
cdentdo we know where the ptg after dublin is?17:12
smcginnisWe should update the project creators guide. It actually directs projects to use lanchpad right now: https://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/creators.html#launchpad17:12
smcginniscdent: Still being worked on.17:12
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smcginnisdiablo_rojo_phon: Could we ask you to update this with storyboard information instead? http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/infra-manual/tree/doc/source/creators.rst#n10517:14
persiacdent: Historically, we have been informed of the location of $next at each event, with a couple small leaks (but the leaks often happened before the venue or dates were hard-confirmed)17:23
dmsimardMontreal for the next PTG please :P17:36
* dmsimard loved Denver but lives in Montreal which was the other option17:36
dmsimardWe have a pretty strong record for the local OpenStack user meetups. We even have the only OpenStack ambassador in Canada :)17:37
dmsimardLots of different operators here too.17:38
pabelangerIIRC, MTL was on the short list beside Denver17:39
dmsimardYup, it's the reason why I mentioned it17:41
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dmsimardI hear $CAD is kinda cheap right now .. and there's no trains in downtown Montreal, just sayin17:44
persiaThere are underground buses though, if people are worred about local transport.17:50
smcginnisI liked Montreal. I'd love to go back.17:58
cdentI was there when I was two. I don't remember.17:59
persiaI'd prefer to go there in August vs. February.  Montreal is beautiful in Feburary, but one must bring appropriate attire.17:59
dmsimardsmcginnis: as long as it's not during the winter, people usually enjoy it yeah17:59
smcginnisdmsimard: It was snowing when I was there last, but I still enjoyed it. ;)18:00
jrollpersia: OTOH, a post-ptg skiing get-together would be great :)18:00
dmsimardThere's a lot of great mountains within 1hr of Montreal for ski/snowboard yeah :D18:00
persiajroll: That's more appropriate for a place that isn't prone to ice storms in deep winter.  If you haven't experienced an ice storm, you probably don't want to do so, even in a city that allows one to avoid going outside as long as one stays downtown.18:01
persiaWith cooperative weather, it would be wonderful, but weather is hard to predict six months in advance.18:01
dmsimardWe had a freezing rain storm a few weeks back, it was pretty bad but not as bad as the one from 199818:02
jrollpersia: true - I was thinking along the lines there must be a ski mountain within driving distance, but I haven't verified that18:02
* persia ended up not moving to Montreal in 2002 after making the mistake of taking the prospective housemate there in February 200118:02
persiajroll: There is excellent skiing within a reasonable drive of Montreal.  Doesn't change my opinion of taking the unprepared there in Feburary.18:03
jrollfair enough, yeah18:03
* jroll thinks he would also enjoy it in august18:03
dmsimardAugust is still warm enough without being horrible18:04
persiaAlso, for those prepared for the cold, there is little as beautiful as a coating of ice over every wall, post, wire, and tree in a city, once the sun rises.  It just isn't something to do unless you have the right clothing and breathing practices.18:08
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* fungi grew up in a remote mountain forest, can confirm the majesty of nature coated in ice... though hearing the falling trees echo through the valley every few seconds is a but unnerving18:41
fungis/a but/a bit/18:41
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EmilienMdo we know when is the next PTG after Dublin?20:10
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persiaBased on the cycle change discussion, I have guessed August, without any further supporting evidence than adding six months to February.  I expect to hear more details in Dublin, possibly including an official statement (or official non-statement, as the one heard in Denver).  I suspect there is some preknowledge within the foundation, and a careful watch of passenger information for certain parties would lead to a more detailed conclusion.20:16
fungigiven the number of years out they have to start checking out venues for the summit, and the number of cities they evaluate in person for that, and with it being the same set of people, you probably wouldn't find much signal in all that noise20:18
persiaOh my.  That's a lot of noise.  Explains why we tend to find such useful venues, I suppose.20:21
persia(in the sense of finding the appointed venue useful, not in the sense of discovering the venues: for the latter, I would have needed to use the third person, not belonging to any sensible set that could be considered the discoverers)20:22
diablo_rojoEmilienM, dates are for sure, but the month is September20:25
EmilienMdiablo_rojo: ok, good enough for me :-) doing personal scheduling for end of year20:26
diablo_rojoEmilienM, I imagine we will have more set details in the next month or so.20:28
EmilienMdiablo_rojo: ok, thanks!20:28
fungipersia: yeah, i remember at one point hearing that the venue negotiation pipeline for summit venues is 3-5 years now, which is one of the biggest challenges in sizing them when you have to be able to predict community/ecosystem interest levels that far in advance20:32
persiaWow!  I remember when it was only a little over a year.  Things are much more organised now.21:03
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fungiwell, these are big venues and unlike some larger conferences we don't just host it in the same place every year, so it's basically by necessity21:22
dmsimardHave the venues downsized after the forum split ? I guess the design/ops summits had quite a few attendees but I don't know if the intent was to keep the same size (or grow even larger)21:23
* smcginnis is happy not to go to Las Vegas every year.21:23
dmsimardBut yeah, forecasting venues out 3 years must be quite difficult21:24
fungidmsimard: adjusting for region (with au for example having a lot fewer local devs and being generally hard to get to) i don't think there's been much shrinking overall21:25
fungithough they did guess high on sydney i think, they have to do it so far ahead of time it was hard to adjust for once they knew that was going to be the case21:26
fungii expect vancouver will give us a better idea as to whether attendance is genuinely waning21:27
smcginnisReally our first apples to apples chance to compare.21:28
dmsimardYeah I'm sure the comparison to the last one will give some good insight21:28
fungi(unless you count austin and boston?)21:28
smcginnisApples to apply pie?21:29
fungijust noting that austin and boston have been repeat locations as well, but the first time for both was so early in the project i agree they make poor recent gauges21:30
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persiaI think a fair line to draw for comparison is the formation of the foundation, so anything after San Francisco is a sensible target.21:38
persiaAlso PTG split probably generates a 5-10% reduction in numbers, making historical comparisons tricky.21:41
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smcginnisWho picked up the task for finding a name for the S release again?22:28
persiaI don't see any clear volunteers in the last two weeks of logs.  ttx suggested he would do it if nobody else did in the 1 February office hour.22:46
smcginnisI could have sworn someone offered to do it, but I haven't seen any activity there.22:49
persiaI had thought so as well, but when I checked my logs, it no longer looked like volunteering: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2018-02-01.log.html#t2018-02-01T15:23:5322:53
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smcginnisOh, that actually looks like pabelanger volunteered to do it.23:25
persiaOh, indeed.23:33
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pabelangersmcginnis: yah, I need to sync up with mordred to get the date ranges down. But he is on PTO this week.  I have patchset started with some boiler plating.23:37

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