Wednesday, 2017-12-20

*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:01
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:02
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc00:07
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:07
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:19
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:26
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:30
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:32
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:37
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:38
*** kumarmn has quit IRC00:41
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:43
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:45
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:49
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:51
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC00:56
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc00:57
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:01
fungitc-members: commence to be doing officey hour things if you like01:02
fungithough we talked the heck out of some stuff earlier, so i can understand if that's covered01:03
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:03
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:08
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:19
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:26
*** liujiong has joined #openstack-tc01:29
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:30
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:32
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:37
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:38
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:43
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:44
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:49
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:51
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC01:55
*** liujiong has quit IRC01:56
*** liujiong has joined #openstack-tc01:56
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc01:57
*** edleafe has quit IRC01:57
fungiwell now, that was simply riveting!02:00
fungijoin us thursday at 15:00 utc for our third and final office hour of the week02:01
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC02:02
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc02:04
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC02:08
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc02:19
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC02:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc02:25
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC02:30
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc02:32
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC02:36
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc02:44
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC02:49
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc02:50
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC02:55
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc03:01
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC03:06
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc03:07
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC03:12
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc03:14
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC03:18
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc03:20
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC03:25
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc03:26
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC03:31
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc03:33
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC03:37
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:02
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC04:07
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:13
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC04:18
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:19
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC04:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:25
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC04:30
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:32
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc04:33
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC04:36
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:38
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC04:42
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:50
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC04:55
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc04:57
*** ianw is now known as ianw_pto04:57
*** kumarmn has quit IRC05:02
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:06
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:08
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:13
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:14
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:19
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:21
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:25
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:27
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:32
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:39
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:44
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:46
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc05:50
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:50
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:52
*** kumarmn has quit IRC05:55
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC05:57
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc05:58
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC06:03
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc06:05
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC06:09
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc06:14
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC06:18
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc06:25
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC06:30
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc06:31
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC06:41
*** ianychoi has quit IRC06:44
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc06:45
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC06:50
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc06:51
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc06:52
*** kumarmn has quit IRC06:55
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC06:57
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc06:58
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:03
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:04
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:09
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:13
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:18
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:20
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:26
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:31
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:32
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:37
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:38
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:43
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:45
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:50
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:51
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc07:51
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC07:56
*** kumarmn has quit IRC07:57
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc07:57
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:02
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:04
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:09
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:16
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:21
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:23
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:27
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:29
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:34
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:35
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:40
*** kmalloc has quit IRC08:41
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:42
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:46
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:48
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc08:52
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:53
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc08:54
*** kumarmn has quit IRC08:57
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC08:59
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:00
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC09:05
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:07
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC09:12
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:19
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC09:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:30
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC09:34
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:36
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC09:41
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:42
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC09:47
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:49
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC09:53
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc09:55
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC10:00
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc10:01
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC10:06
*** liujiong has quit IRC10:06
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc10:24
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC10:29
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc10:54
*** kumarmn has quit IRC10:59
*** dtantsur|afk is now known as dtantsur11:02
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:05
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:10
*** gcb has quit IRC11:12
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:16
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:21
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:23
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:27
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:29
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:34
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:35
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:40
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:41
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:46
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:48
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:53
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc11:54
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc11:55
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc11:57
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC11:59
*** kumarmn has quit IRC12:00
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc12:00
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc12:02
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC12:05
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc12:07
*** kumarmn has quit IRC12:07
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC12:11
dimsfungi :)12:12
cdent[t 1I4l]12:16
purplerbot<fungi> well now, that was simply riveting! [2017-12-20 02:00:18.070984] [n 1I4l]12:16
*** gcb has joined #openstack-tc12:39
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc12:45
*** gcb has quit IRC12:47
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC12:49
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc12:55
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:00
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:01
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc13:03
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:06
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:07
*** kumarmn has quit IRC13:08
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:12
*** openstackgerrit has quit IRC13:13
-openstackstatus- NOTICE: gerrit is being restarted due to extreme slowness13:15
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:18
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:23
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:25
*** lukebrowning_ has joined #openstack-tc13:28
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:29
*** lukebrowning_ has quit IRC13:33
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:34
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:39
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:40
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:45
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:46
*** cdent has quit IRC13:47
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc13:49
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:51
*** mriedem1 has joined #openstack-tc13:52
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc13:53
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc13:53
*** kumarmn has quit IRC13:54
*** mriedem has quit IRC13:55
*** mriedem1 is now known as mriedem13:56
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC13:58
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:00
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:05
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:06
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:11
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:12
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:17
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:19
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:25
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:30
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:31
smcginnisIt's not always that you get the whole office to yourself.14:35
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:36
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:38
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:42
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc14:44
TheJuliaExcept then all work can be assigned to those not there <.<    >.>14:44
* cdent always gets the whole office14:46
cdentthis is a combo of great and tragic14:46
fungiTheJulia: luckily, all attendees were smart enough not to assign me anything ;)14:46
fungioh, i see, you're saying i should have taken the opportunity to "delegate"14:47
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:50
TheJulialol14:55
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC14:55
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc14:57
*** mriedem is now known as mriedem_away14:57
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC15:01
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc15:03
*** marst has joined #openstack-tc15:06
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC15:08
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc15:09
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC15:13
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc15:41
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC15:45
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc15:47
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC15:52
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc15:53
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC15:58
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:00
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:04
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:06
*** mriedem_away is now known as mriedem16:09
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:10
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:12
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:17
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:19
*** kumarmn has quit IRC16:22
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:26
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:31
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:32
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:37
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:38
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc16:39
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:43
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:44
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:49
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc16:51
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC16:55
*** dtantsur is now known as dtantsur|afk17:34
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc17:40
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC17:45
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc17:48
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC17:52
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc17:54
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC17:59
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc18:00
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC18:05
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc18:07
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC18:11
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc18:13
harlowjaok, we make all the decision now right?18:16
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC18:18
harlowja*all of them* lol18:25
harlowjawhile everyone is on vacation18:25
cdentdecided: harlowja for Acquisition Editor18:26
harlowjaeck18:26
harlowjalol18:26
dimshey harlowja18:27
harlowjahola18:29
harlowjacomo etas18:29
harlowja*como estas18:29
harlowjaso ya, lots of backscroll reading, lol18:40
TheJuliaharlowja: I guess we're sufficiently in the quiet time of the year to begin making all of the decisions right now... First decision though, we must laugh evilly!18:43
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc18:43
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC18:48
harlowjayup18:50
harlowjado it18:50
harlowjaso i suggest a marketing campaign done by openstack foundation to showcase who is using openstack and why and <generate some noise>18:50
harlowjathat's my first suggestion, lol18:50
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc18:51
harlowjai've seen to many of https://www.makeway.world/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/build-on-aws-header.png at airports ,lol18:51
harlowja^ recently18:51
harlowjaand https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKRIc5GW0AArw8L.jpg and ...18:51
harlowjai believe that will help fix a root cause (publicity and coolness effect, call it whatever u want, PR, lol)18:52
TheJuliaHeh, So we can't just have the hypnotoad in airports?18:53
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC18:55
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc18:57
harlowjathat'd be fine with me19:00
harlowjalol19:00
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:01
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:03
persiaHype about OpenStack doesn't necessarily translate into FTEs assigned to develop OpenStack.  It did before, but it would need significant VC (internal or external) to cause a direct mapping, and I think they learned a lesson already (or think they have)19:05
harlowjawe need to rebrand then, lol19:07
harlowjaStackStackStack19:07
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:08
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:09
harlowjado we know that the hype doesn't translate?19:12
harlowjaor PR hype or...19:13
harlowjawhat lesson did said VC (or whoever) learn?19:13
harlowjaor what supposed lesson19:13
persiaIn other environments, press hype usually correlates with folk making investment in an attempt to extract revenues from that which is hyped.  For most software, once a working example is present, investment tends to be on the sales side, rather than on the development side.  These are only general guidelines: they may not apply in specific circumstances, although the transition we have seen in vendor investment in openstack over the past couple19:14
persiayears follows that pattern.19:14
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:14
persiaI suspect the VCs do not currently believe "OpenStack" provides a significant multiple for investment turnover, and that most current investors are supporting active business processes rather than speculative valuation.  I could be mistaken.19:15
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:15
mrhillsmani think we limit most of our "hype" discussions to US when in actuality OpenStack is still very much "hype" for non-US folks19:16
harlowjaYa, intersting, i think this is one of the root causes (call it whatever u want), others may or may not agree19:16
harlowjamrhillsman agreed19:16
harlowjabut i'm just in US, ha19:16
mrhillsmanwe need to do a better job fostering non-US investment and developers19:17
mrhillsmanwhich unfortunately is difficult because of a number of reasons19:17
mrhillsmanbut is definitely something we should as a community do (top-down/bottom-up)19:17
persiamrhillsman: While OpenStack is very popular in non-US, do you perceive significant VC-style investment?19:17
* persia mostly sees non-US firms developing business processes that use OpenStack successfully, rather than many firms trying to resell OpenStack in non-US19:18
mrhillsmani do not have enough of a view to offer any facts but based on opinion i think it is a mixture of both19:19
harlowjadoes openstack foundation have a PR person/marketing manager that is responsible for trying to lead/figure out all of this?19:19
harlowja^ i don't really know, lol19:19
mrhillsmanbut i still believe that the issue is fostering one or the other19:20
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:20
mrhillsmanor both for that matter and not something to establish trends or make facts about as a basis for the underlying community/project/etc19:21
mrhillsmani could be saying that wrong19:21
harlowjaya, seems relevant here, lol19:22
mrhillsmanbut basically i think because openstack and other open source projects for that matter are by default global we do specific projects and open source at large a disservice when we limit our observation through US filter19:22
harlowjasureeeee :)19:22
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:24
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:29
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:30
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:35
harlowjaas for the PTL stuff, i might just wait to give my thoughts on that for later / meeting-hours19:36
harlowjasome of this requires some meditation, lol19:36
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:37
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:42
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:43
harlowjai'd also be +1 for having all TC office hours with video19:47
harlowjathat would make the IRC logs more interesting to read19:47
harlowjaso ya, please do that :)19:47
harlowjain the style of https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Brady_Bunch.jpg would be nice19:48
cdentbut then I'd have to wear pants19:48
harlowjanah nah, just your face19:48
harlowja^ see above pict, lol19:48
cdentyou don't wear pants on your face?19:49
harlowjaonly on sundays19:49
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:51
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:52
cdentI think I'm going to crash out of today19:54
harlowjapicts please19:54
harlowjai recommend mandatory gopros for all TC members19:54
harlowjalol19:54
harlowjatwitch streams perhaps?19:54
harlowjalol19:54
harlowjamaybe that's what we should all do19:55
harlowjaevery dev should have a twitch stream19:55
cdentno sir19:55
harlowjalol19:55
cdentnight night19:56
*** cdent has quit IRC19:56
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC19:57
TheJuliaI can assure you, nobody wants to see my life.19:58
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc19:59
harlowjalol20:00
harlowjau could be famous (more famous!)20:00
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC20:04
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc20:05
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC20:10
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc20:11
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC20:16
fungimy lab is a camera-free zone for... er... security reasons. yeah, that's it20:17
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc20:19
smcginnis:)20:19
mrhillsmanlol20:20
fungiharlowja: as for whether the foundation has a pr person/marketing manager responsible for trying to lead/figure out increasing visibility of the brand in non-usa regions, that's "lauren sell, vice president, marketing and community services" https://www.openstack.org/foundation/staff20:20
fungiand more specifically "heidi bretz, director of business development"20:21
fungithere are lots of additional people at the foundation working on various aspects of it too... claire, danny, allison, erin, anne, kendall, ashlee20:23
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC20:23
fungi(kendall w, not kendall n who does different awesome things unrelated to marketing)20:23
fungiroughly 40% of our full-time staff are marketing and business development, by my count20:25
fungimaybe more if you count the design and dev staff20:27
fungier, design staff i meant20:27
harlowjacool20:41
harlowjathe other root cause that might be useful to ummm, figure out20:42
harlowjais for lack of better terms, why devs. in various places hate/crap on openstack20:42
harlowjai've heard such things are happening more in various other communities ...20:43
harlowja^ and i'd like to do some self-reflection and figure out how to stop/address it20:45
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc20:48
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC20:53
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:00
*** diablo_rojo has quit IRC21:04
fungijust like anywhere there's a perceived competition between technologies, you'll get loud "fans" of one making baseless disparaging remarks of whatever software they feel their favorite is competing with. for those detractors at least, there's not a lot to be done other than painting a smaller target on yourself21:05
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:05
harlowjawhat if we reached out to those fans and tried to digest there input?21:06
fungicf, endless "pc vs mac" debates over the decadews21:06
fungia lot of what i've digested is people repeating the same misinformation21:06
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:06
harlowjaok, to fix that we then need to do (?)21:07
fungithat's not to say that there aren't good criticisms out there, but they're generally drowned out by rabid fans who want to make themselves look like they're whoever's #1 fan by flinging derogatory insults at the rival team21:08
fungiso for example, we've all been putting a lot of effort into disambiguating openstack from other software projects in the eyes of the media and pundits in an attempt to remove ourselves from competition based on invalid comparisons21:09
fungilike the "you can use openstack and kubernetes together, here's how they're complimentary" sorts of articles and conference talks have been helping on that front, i think21:10
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:12
fungibasically we have to show that we're not in competition, we're in cooperation21:12
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:13
fungigetting more of the same people contributing to both openstack and those other projects helps it a lot too21:14
harlowjaya, i'm wondering if we have any close-person from the <other side> that we can bounce ideas off of21:14
fungiand cross-pollination between event attendees can also be good for that, as long as care is taken not to look like openstack people are invading some other community's event to "steal their users/devs" or whatever21:15
harlowjawhat about more cross-pollination between devs?21:15
harlowjajust throwing this out there, switch all our channels to slack21:15
fungiyou'll never get me doing open work through proprietary services21:16
harlowjai'm not saying i like it, i'm just trying to throw out things that (even if painful/not liked by everyone) could help21:16
fungibut using that suggestion for instance, we can certainly set an example of the virtuous cycle of using free software to develop free software21:16
*** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc21:17
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:17
harlowjai get the view on principal, but at what point are we also willing to compromise for the health of ourselves and the 2 groups21:18
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:22
dtroyerIt feels like there have been a number of suggestions lately for OpenStack (a previous hype-child) to change to be more like the current hype-child for some reason.  It makes me feel like there is a lack of confidence in where we are or even WHO we areā€¦  Am I missing something?21:26
harlowjau are dean21:26
harlowjau are from planet earth21:26
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:27
dtroyermaybe the cyclical identity-crisis thing is just part of the nature of this level of decentralized development?  I'm trying to find another project with similar cycles, and can't think of one that I have first-hand experience with21:28
dtroyernot that I have been in a lot of projects, but more than 2 or 321:28
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:29
*** jroll has joined #openstack-tc21:33
flwanghi there, is there any process to propose a community goal?21:33
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:33
fungiflwang: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/#process-details21:34
david-lyleI think there's a bit of backlash from proprietary public clouds in the criticisms of OpenStack. Kubernetes was built to run on these proprietary providers originally (one specifically). It's a little open source in a much larger proprietary sandwich21:34
*** kumarmn has quit IRC21:35
david-lylethere's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different model21:35
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:35
flwangfungi: thanks21:36
fungiflwang: so basically, per that second paragraph, propose it as a goal in a thread on the openstack-dev ml, preferably at least including the [tc] subject tag21:36
fungiflwang: more formally, goal proposals end up as proposed patches to the goals directory in the openstack/governance repository21:37
fungiflwang: they're separated by cycle into directories here: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/goals21:38
fungiand you can copy and edit that template.txt to create a new one21:38
fungiyou'll see the template has some instructions in it as placeholder text21:39
fungidavid-lyle: agreed, the culture is going to be different in a community which is (or at least started out) inherently dependent on proprietary software/services vs one which was ground-up free software21:39
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:40
fungii think that distinction is a big part of our community identity and something i wouldn't want to see us lose21:40
fungiit's something other communities struggle to achieve, which we tend to take for granted too often21:40
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:41
mriedemflwang: i bet i can guess what you're going to propose21:46
flwangmriedem: haha21:48
mriedemfungi: harlowja: btw, dims is working in both communities so he might have some insight21:48
mriedemalso, -1 to slack; total distraction when we had to use it at ibm21:48
flwanggood see you're around, buddy21:48
flwangmriedem: may I get your opinion about the idea before I put more effort on that?21:49
mriedemflwang: i don't even know what it is,21:49
mriedembut apparently i've say NO to it many many times before21:49
mriedembecause i work in nova and that's all we do21:49
mriedem*said21:49
flwangmriedem: if so, i would stop putting effort if I can't get a support from Nova21:50
flwangmriedem: but meanwhile, i'm trying to figure out a way to collection notification from messaging bus21:51
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:51
flwanginstead of talking to services hard to change21:51
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc21:52
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:52
mriedemflwang: i'm being sarcastic, sorry21:53
mriedemwhy can't you just listen on the existing notifications that nova sends out?21:53
dimsflwang : please do state your idea. matt is reacting to something on the mailing list :)21:53
flwangmriedem: it could be possible, but zaqar is not a place to listen the infra messaging bus21:54
*** diablo_rojo has quit IRC21:54
flwangwe may have to leverage another service/process to collect all the notifications, like ceilometer21:55
mriedemflwang: i don't really know anything about zaqar21:55
mriedemare you suggesting something where nova has to push directly to zaqar REST APIs or something?21:55
*** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc21:55
flwangmriedem: if you don't know anything about zaqar, why the idea is easily say no?21:55
mriedemflwang: i was being facetious21:56
mriedembecause there have been several generic claims in that thread about how nova is generally unwilling to cooperate or work on anything that anyone ever wants, ever21:56
mriedemincluding things that, i at least, have never heard of21:57
flwangmriedem: if a lot people thing about that way, that could be true?21:57
*** kumarmn has quit IRC21:57
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc21:57
mriedemif donald trump says everything on the news is fake, does that make that true too?21:57
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC21:58
flwangdims: thanks, I will talk with zaneb and any other people interested in that idea to see if we can propose that as a community goal21:58
flwangmriedem: we could be wrong, but that is out of the topic here21:58
flwangi'm just trying to see if we can figure out a way, let tenant user can get the resource notifications21:59
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc21:59
flwangfor now, all notifications are sent to the infra message bus, there is no way for tenant user to consume them21:59
flwangthat's the goal we want to address21:59
flwangi don't really care about the way, TBH21:59
mriedemok. seems that zaqar (if that's the front end for the tenant user) could just listen on the notifications from the projects and queue those up for the tenant user to consume22:00
flwangmriedem: you're just proposing a change which could change the scope of zaqar22:00
mriedembut i don't know how you put policy controls in place for that, because a tenant user shouldn't know which host they are running on22:01
mriedemso we have a goal in mind, but no idea on how to implement it?22:01
flwangmriedem: depends on if we want to address it, we can define some policy for the sensitive notifications22:02
mriedemsorry i just thought this was something that's already been done in at least one project (heat)22:02
flwangto filter them out, i think22:02
flwangmriedem: yes, hence why we think if we can "copy" it to the other services22:02
mtreinishmriedem: or how do you isolate data to different tenants? You don't want to users in different tenants to have access to the notifications to each other's resources...22:03
dimsflwang : is panko part of the possible solution?22:03
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:04
mriedemmtreinish: right, that's why i assumed something would be storing the notifications i guess, and those notifications would need some user/project context information22:04
flwangdims: could be, but I'22:04
zanebright, so the idea is not to let users read the rabbit bus22:04
flwangi'm not sure if Heat is doing any special things22:05
zanebthe idea is to allow users to request notifications about their guest22:05
flwangzaneb: ^22:05
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:05
mriedemzaneb: where do they make the request for this if heat is doing it? the heat api?22:05
flwangzaneb: is there any difference b/w the usage in heat for zaqar and put something in panko to address this22:06
flwang?22:06
mriedemor zaqar?22:06
zanebone way, and what we have done in Heat, is to allow the user to specify a list of Zaqar queues when they create a stack, and then when stuff the user is interested in happens, Heat posts notifications to those queues22:06
zanebsomething similar in Nova would be cool, but would involve changing the Nova API and we've been told (most recently by johnthetubaguy) that that is off-limits for all time22:07
mriedemso nova would need to post notifications to the zaqar rest api?22:07
mriedemhow hard is it to just swap out the notification driver in oslo.messaging to be a zaqar driver that pushes to the zaqar rest api?22:07
mriedemrather than the rpc queue22:07
zanebthe alternative obviously is to write a separate service that nobody will ever install to read messages from the (unreliable) rabbit queue, filter them, and proxy them to the requested Zaqar queues22:08
dimszaneb : flwang : yes, you can write a notification driver for zaqar and specify that in nova.conf (https://github.com/openstack/oslo.messaging/tree/master/oslo_messaging/notify)22:08
flwangdims: zaqar is not at that level unfortunately22:08
flwangflaper87: ^22:08
mriedemso does heat talk to zaqar over rest or rpc?22:09
dimsonly question is ... is the set of events from nova, is that enough22:09
zanebdims, mriedem: that part is not hard; the hard part is the interface to allow the user to configure it (i.e. what queue(s) it goes to)22:09
zanebmriedem: ReST22:09
dimszaneb : that would not be upto nova right? something else has to do that22:09
mriedemdims: i assume you'd have to create the vm with a specific queue(s)22:09
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:10
zanebdims: what mriedem said22:10
mriedemand nova would be responsible for pushing notifications to the zaqar rest api for said queues22:10
zanebexactly22:10
dimsmriedem : you can do that in the code that you write for notification driver22:10
dimsno need to do that in Nova22:10
mriedemdims: you'd still have to pass the queue from the instance to the driver22:11
mriedemlike, nova sends a big ass notification payload for an instance today,22:11
zanebdims: the user doesn't interact with the notification driver, they interact with the Nova API. So the Nova API has to accept the list of queues22:11
mriedemwhich includes things like block devices and ports22:11
mriedemthat would also have to contain zaqar queues22:11
dimswe can make sure that the data the driver gets has enough info to figure out which instance ...22:11
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:11
dimsthis is class separation of duty ... nova's duty is to put out enough info in the hooks22:12
mriedemso POST /servers/ {'queues': [1,2,3]} -> pass that through to the notification driver, which reads the queues off the payload and posts to the zaqar API22:12
mriedemdims: what hooks?22:13
dimsnotification driver entry point + events from various spots in nova22:13
mriedembut they are saying the user has to create the server with specific queues22:13
dimsmriedem : why would we want to hard code zaqar queues in nova?22:13
mriedemi'm not talking about hard-coded queues22:13
mriedemi assume this is like creating a server with a specific volume and ort22:14
mriedem*port22:14
flwangdims: there is no hardcode22:14
flwangmriedem: correct22:14
mriedemyou create a server with a specific volume, port, image and queue22:14
dimslistening22:14
mriedemand the instance payload that goes to the notification driver contains that queue entry,22:14
mriedemso the zaqar driver knows which queue to post the notification message to for that instance22:15
zaneb(in a perfect world you can probably add and remove queues later as well)22:15
mriedemhttps://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/reference/notifications.html#versioned-notification-samples22:15
dimslike an annotation .. if it is present, pass that through to the notification driver22:15
zanebyeah22:16
mriedemwhat about just passing this through as specific metadata?22:16
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:16
mriedemthe instance metadata is passed through the notification payload22:16
mriedemand you can change metedata on the fly22:16
dims++ mriedem22:16
mriedemb/c of the metadata service22:16
mriedemor tags22:16
mriedeminstance tags22:16
mriedemsame idea22:16
mriedemcreate a server with queue:foo as metadata22:17
flwangmriedem: it works i think22:17
mriedemzaqar notification driver reads from that22:17
zanebI could see that working22:17
mriedemcinder has a similar concept22:17
mriedemneutron has tags22:17
mriedemnot sure about meta for neutron22:17
mriedembut you could do a queue=foo tag22:17
dimsso that's what i was saying we have the pieces there already22:17
flwangmriedem: but I don't think there could be a oslo.messaging driver22:17
mriedemcan i go back to saying no to everything else now? :)22:17
mriedemflwang: why?22:18
flwangzaneb: is it possible to exact the code in heat to make it like a common lib?22:18
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:18
dimsflwang : please don't ask Nova to depend explicitly on zaqar22:18
flwangmriedem: zaqar is a messaging service, not a message bus/lib like rabbitmq/qpid22:18
zanebdims: it'd be a soft dependency, obviously, if there was one22:18
dimswe already have the versioned notifications through notification driver. that's the place to plug in22:19
mriedemflwang: it doesn't have to be22:19
mriedemflwang: i can write a notification driver that dumps everything to a text file22:19
flwangdims: no hard dependency for sure22:19
dimsand another process picks up from the file and writes to zaqar22:19
dimswhich is essentially what aodh does22:19
mriedemor zaqar just has a service that listens on the rpc notifications, like searchlight, ceilometer, designate, that other 'm' project that does task orchestration22:20
dimsmriedem : right-o22:21
mriedemmistral?22:21
mriedemyup22:21
flwangmriedem: personally, i think that's the problem openstack need to address22:21
mriedemyeah so this all seems totally possible using existing APIs for nova, cinder and neutron, not sure about others22:21
dimsflwang : the pieces are there, someone needs to stitch it together22:21
flwangi don't want to see "all' projects write the dup code to listen the MB22:22
mriedemas far as the user being able to create a resource with a specific key that the listening service is looking for22:22
dimsflwang : so do that once in zaqar ... or use what is in Aodh22:22
flwangand I know the story of mistral, why they have to do that, which they don't want to22:22
mriedemflwang: what are you proposing? that nova has specific points where it calls every other project's REST API for whatever information they need to get from nova?22:23
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:23
mriedemcreating a common library is one thing22:23
zanebflwang: I'm not sure there's enough code to bother with a common lib: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/heat/tree/heat/engine/clients/os/zaqar.py#n8722:23
mriedemif that's the major problem, then why don't the people that feel strongly about that problem work on the library?22:23
flwangi will seriously consider if we can create a tiny process/service in zaqar to do that, like therve has done https://github.com/therve/osn/tree/master/osn22:23
*** david-lyle has quit IRC22:24
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:24
mriedemthis is the designate code for consuming notifications i think https://github.com/openstack/designate/blob/master/designate/sink/service.py22:24
flwangmriedem: probably that's the last easy sort and no body can block them22:24
flwangmistral was blocked almost 1 year and they failed,   Mistral PTL,  pls correct me if I'm wrong22:25
dimsflwang : https://github.com/openstack/oslo.messaging/blob/master/tools/simulator.py#L26222:26
mriedemblocked on what?22:26
dimsflwang : that's the code we use to test both rpc and notifications and simulate load etc22:27
flwangmriedem: can't remember the details, but you know the result now, they have to listen MB themselves22:27
dimsflwang : the design is either write a driver or listen to events .. if the events are not rich enough then propose more events that we can add. what can we change here?22:28
mriedemflwang: ok i don't know what they expected nova to do22:28
flwangmriedem: no,it's not related to nova, sorry22:29
mriedemright, i mean, seriously, there are existing APIs that have been around for years that can be used to do this thing that apparently nova is blocking everyone on22:29
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:29
dimsmriedem : don't go there :)22:29
zanebone other aspect of this that comes up a lot is that we'd need to sanitise the notifications to strip out stuff that is not for end-users' eyes. there are 3 or 4 different projects tackling this or wanting to tackle it independently (Aodh, Mistral, Searchlight off the top of my head)22:29
zanebI wonder if there is a way we can mark fields in the notification as sensitive or not at the source22:30
mriedemdims: have you read the 1-year dev cycle thread?22:30
mriedemlike, all of it?22:30
zanebif we could do that then I could see this being implemented as a oslo-messaging driver22:30
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:30
mriedemzaneb: what is sensitive depends on the user context and policy22:30
dimsmriedem : yep, i hear your frustration.22:31
flwangzaneb: thanks, that's one of the reasons, zaqar can't perfectly handle this case22:31
zanebmriedem: maybe mark the things that are definitely-not-sensitive then? ;)22:31
flwangmriedem: like the host info22:31
mriedemrather than completely rely on just passing the nova notification payload through to the end user,22:31
mriedemwhy wouldn't the consuming service just have a mapping of what it exposes to the end user22:32
mriedemand that is based on context and policy in that service22:32
mriedemso if zaqar wants to expose instance.delete.end, fine, but it could also pull the things out of the payload that it cares about and discard the rest22:32
zanebzaqar is a dumb transport22:33
flwangmriedem: who maintain the mapping?22:33
flwangzaqar don't know anything about the notifications22:33
mriedemflwang: the consuming project that is ultimately exposing things out of it's REST API to the tenant user22:33
flwangthe content i mean22:33
mriedemsearchlight is already doing this22:33
smcginnisDefinitely doesn't seem like Nova's responsibility to know either.22:33
zanebzaqar is just a way of getting messages to the user and letting them authenticate with keystone22:33
mriedemso cinder already has a messages API22:34
mriedemseems we don't even need zaqar then if we're all just going to implement a messages API in each service22:34
zanebsmcginnis: I disagree. Nova knows what data is e.g. already exposed in the API and what is internal, and it is well placed to be a single source of truth about that22:35
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:35
flwangit's surprised that Nova don't know what notifications are sensitive22:35
mriedemflwang: i'm sure we could audit all of that, but again, it's a policy and per-context thing22:36
mriedemand you'd be talking about duplicating that across all projects that you need this capability from22:36
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:36
zanebmriedem: let me put it another way... if Nova doesn't know then there is no way the other 3 or 4 or more services that want to expose this stuff will ever figure it out correctly22:37
smcginnisWell, like mriedem said, seems like it depends on context and policy what is sensitive and what is not.22:38
flwangmriedem: do we have a policy can control the notification's sensitivity ?22:38
mriedemzaneb: that's why i was suggesting a mapping so the consumer can pick what they choose to expose and to whom22:38
zanebthe current situation is outright dangerous - see my comments on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/308664/ as an example22:38
mriedemflwang: no, because notifications are all assumed to be over rpc and internal22:38
flwangmriedem: true22:39
zanebmriedem: consumer, or operator?22:39
flwangzaneb: thanks for the link which is the one i mentioned above22:40
flwangeither consumer or even operator, i don't think they have the knowledge to maintain the mapping22:41
mriedemzaneb: nova has no idea who or what is consuming it's notifications22:41
mriedemand how those payloads are going to be used, whether they are exposed to a tenant user or not22:41
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:42
smcginnisOr some internal service that actually needs that "sensitive" information.22:42
mriedemright,22:42
flwangmriedem: yep, out of curious, do we have a cross project payload format ? so that we can define some sensitive format for fieleds like we're doing for logs22:42
mriedemlike, something listens on service.disabled22:42
mriedemservice.update or whatever it is22:42
mriedemflwang: no there is no standard payload for notifications in openstack22:43
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:43
flwangmriedem: so it's mess world22:43
zanebwell, I'd phrase that as: it is assumed that the only things listening are those specifically allowed by the operator, and they have operator-level privileges22:43
mriedemyes i would agree with that22:43
dimsback in a bit, will read backlog :)22:44
mriedemalso, going back to a priority question, how many users are asking for this given i've never heard of it before today?22:45
mriedemthat is probably a harsh question,22:45
zanebso if we want to give that data to the user, either the service needs to decide which bits are safe to export to user-space, or the operator does (via some configuration), or some combination of the two22:45
mriedembut we have to prioritize things based on limited resources22:45
flwangmriedem: that probably because nova is at the lower level than heat, zaqar....22:46
zanebmriedem: Heat and Horizon have been wanting to get this stuff from notifications instead of polling since... the beginning of time22:46
mriedemwhat is "this stuff" specifically?22:46
mriedemrbac controlled notification payload content?22:47
zanebwhen events happen (e.g. server build completes)22:47
flwangget the notifications I'm interested in22:47
mriedemzaneb: and notifications have been around since the beginning of time22:47
mriedemso what am i missing besides the rbac thing and hooking in zaqar somehow?22:48
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:48
mriedemwhich the latter could all be done already22:48
zanebactually we've wanted this since before notifications were a thing. but we can't have everyone drinking from that firehose22:48
zanebthe other thing though is that it's important for autonomous applications to export the events to userspace22:49
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:49
zanebflwang and I worked on a thing where you can trigger Mistral workflows from a zaqar message22:50
zanebso applications can manage themselves (e.g. recover from a failure) in user-controlled ways, if they have access to events22:50
flwangwe're trying to provide more for tenant user besides opertors22:51
mriedemyup i get that22:52
zaneband a large fraction of users are ignoring OpenStack and going straight to AWS/Google/Azure because they have this and we don't22:52
flwangthat's the another topic maybe out of this, which i struggle is,  if openstack should do more innovation above the infra layer22:53
flwangzaneb: and I think yes, but somebody may have different opinion22:53
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC22:54
mriedemso there are 2 extreme sides to this right? on one end, zaqar today can build something to listen on notifications and map those to things it wants to expose to it's users, using some rbac on the zaqar side,22:54
mriedemand on the extreme, nova/cinder/glance/neutron/keystone/everyone else standardizes on a way to have rbac / context based notification payloads so that zaqar can just pass those through to the end user w/o having to worry about exposing sensitive information22:54
mriedemdo i understand those two extremes correctly?22:55
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc22:55
zanebmriedem: in the first one it's unlikely to be Zaqar itself, more likely Aodh or some yet-to-be-created service. other than that, I think that's broadly accurate22:56
*** david-lyle has joined #openstack-tc22:56
mriedemok, so having said that,22:56
mriedemwhich do you think would get one faster?22:56
mriedem*done22:57
mriedemalso considering that nova is, i think, the only project that has versioned notifications right now22:57
mriedemversioned payloads might not matter as long as projects never ever remove keys from the payload22:58
zanebtbh I don't much care about the events from any of those other projects22:58
mriedemyou don't, but do your users?22:58
mriedemor the users of this thing22:59
mriedemi have no idea what users of this thing want, they don't talk to me22:59
zanebhorizon/heat would probably care about some of them22:59
zanebuserspace users I think would mostly care about servers22:59
flwangafk for a while, will be back later, thank you mriedem and zaneb22:59
mriedemalright, well at least i understand the use case a bit more23:00
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC23:00
zanebto answer you question though, it's probably similar23:00
mriedemwhich is 100% more than i did when i read in the ML that "Sure, it would be dead easy, but Nova cores have made it abundantly  clear that under no circumstances would they ever accept any code like  this in Nova. Hence it's on this list. "23:01
zanebthe first is a filter-the-firehose problem23:01
zanebthe second is mostly a configuration problem23:01
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc23:02
zanebyes, sorry, that was a fairly glib comment even by my standards23:02
*** diablo_rojo has quit IRC23:02
zanebmriedem: etherpad from the last discussion I recall, FWIW: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-alternatives-to-polling23:03
mriedem"I don't think Nova should directly integrate to zaqar. It seems like it should be driver. oslo.notification. Lots of projects will need these kinds of hooks."23:04
mriedem^ exactly what dims and i were saying23:04
mriedem"Either Nova emits new notifications, or a service massages current notifications to make them user consumable."23:05
mriedemexactly what i was saying23:05
mriedemso solutions have been around for a couple of years now23:05
mriedembut no one worked on it because john said nova was'nt going to push directly to zaqar/23:06
mriedem?23:06
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC23:07
zanebit's more complicated than that23:07
zanebso the stuff in the actions (basically Heat prototyping this) did happen23:08
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc23:08
zanebthe 4th bullet that you reference there is problematic, it creates a huge load on whatever has to process/filter the firehose23:09
mriedemzaneb: someone has to do that somewhere yes?23:09
mriedembe it nova or the consuming service23:09
zanebif it's filtered at the source then it's not so bad23:10
mriedemwell you have to define the filters then23:10
mriedemwhich also seems complicated23:10
zanebtherve did build a prototype of the second bullet point, which I think flwang referred to earlier23:10
zanebmriedem: well, you say that for this server that I'm booting here are the queues I want to post to. That saves something else from having to listen to every notification for every server in every tenant and figure out which if any queues it needs to proxy them to23:12
mriedemzaneb: but i pointed out you can do that with server metadata using a specific key (or a server tag) and make the (yet non-existent) oslo.messaging notification driver handle that23:13
mriedemthe metadata gets passed all the way through23:13
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC23:13
mriedemand is mutable23:13
zanebyeah, that's a good idea and one that did not come up in the session to the best of my recollection23:13
zanebthe idea that came up was the first bullet point, and johnthetubaguy made it clear that any api change was off the table23:14
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc23:14
*** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc23:14
zanebto be honest, a big part of the dynamic is that it's very difficult to get people to install a new service. and if it's not there on a critical mass of installations, then you can't write an autonomous application that's interoperable between OpenStack clouds so people won't bother23:16
zanebso nobody was super motivated to work on the second bullet point because it looked like a dead end in terms of adoption23:17
mriedemsure, and that sucks,23:17
mriedembut it also sucks to put all knobs into nova23:17
mriedembecause we suck managing all those knobs23:17
mriedemi just wish people would also consider that rather than think nova is only ever saying no or "not right now" to things, rather than we're just saying no because we like it23:18
zanebit's my contention that if we had had this in Nova from very early on, we could have avoided adding a lot of even-harder-to-manage knobs like live migration, because we could have positioned OpenStack as a platform for cloud-aware applications instead of a VMWare replacement23:19
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC23:19
zanebbut that's a whole other philosophical discussion :)23:19
mriedemidk, isn't part of the "nova/cinder/glance are way too tightly coupled and all have to be installed together" mentality in part because they started in a single project?23:20
mriedemanyway, i've gotta run23:21
mriedemi would just like people to know that we're not working on all the things not because we like to say no or because we're bums not doing anything, but we also have limited resources and have to prioritize what it is we work on23:22
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc23:24
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC23:29
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc23:30
*** lukebrowning_ has joined #openstack-tc23:32
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC23:34
*** lukebrowning_ has quit IRC23:37
*** lukebrowning has joined #openstack-tc23:38
*** kumarmn has quit IRC23:46
*** lukebrowning has quit IRC23:48

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!