Monday, 2017-12-18

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-openstackstatus- NOTICE: The freenode network is currently the target of automated spam attacks, we have enabled temporary restrictions on targetted OpenStack channels which requires users to be logged on to NickServ. If you see spam in your channel, please report it in #openstack-infra. Thanks.01:48
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* cmurphy returns from vacation, may have to declare bankruptcy on long dev cycles thread T.T08:45
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openstackgerritChandan Kumar proposed openstack/governance master: Added blazar-tempest-plugin to blazar project  https://review.openstack.org/52866609:22
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openstackgerritChandan Kumar proposed openstack/governance master: Added blazar-tempest-plugin to blazar project  https://review.openstack.org/52866609:34
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cmurphyre CD of openstack not being viable (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T16:18:44), I recall the TW guys were successful at it, though it would be hard to find them on irc these days09:51
cmurphyre slowing development pace (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T16:45:48) I'm surprised nova and ironic are suspicious of the numbers, in keystone we feel it a lot09:52
cmurphyre part-timers making big changes (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T17:04:20) or leading the project (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T17:07:11) I would disagree, the keystone team is pretty much entirely made up of part-timers except for the PTL (who I am pretty09:52
cmurphysure is twins pretending to be one person)09:52
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ttxPosted a TL;DR: for the megathread14:09
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ttx\Hoping it helps14:09
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cmurphyi'm about 80% through it now14:10
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ttxcmurphy: great, you'll be able to tell me if I missed a ceoncern/objection14:12
cmurphy:)14:12
ttxI also included most of the discussion that happened here with EmilienM and mriedem14:13
mugsiere leading a project: for Pike all of the Designate core team were less than 20% people.14:13
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mugsienot a great release, or time for the project, but we kept lights on14:13
ttxmugsie: is there anything you'd recommend getting rid of that would make life easier ?14:14
ttxmugsie: we've been considering removing the tag at milestones14:14
mugsiethe tag at milestones was not a big deal (especially with the new o/releases repo)14:14
ttxIt's a bit of a tradeoff between keeping people aware of their release duties and useless action14:14
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mugsieit was just keeping up with changes to other projects / libraries14:15
mugsiethings would change in devstack / tempest / other shared tooling, and we wouldn't have the time to dig in and fix it14:15
ttxAnyway, if you have simple suggestions to remove 'keeping the lights on' burden, I'll take them14:16
mugsiee.g. we wrote off the mitaka release from the denver PTG onwards14:16
ttxfor example, the dev digest could include all work driven by other projects that you need to inplenebt locally14:17
ttximplement14:17
fungigranted, changes in support tooling usually happen in order to accommodate needs of other teams, so seems like this comes back to the stresses of coordinating release between multiple deliverables with varied paces of development/levels of activity14:17
ttxi m p l e m e n t14:17
cdentfungi++14:17
mugsieyeah - and for a more contraversial opinion, when changes are made to core things like devstack, testing changes for more than just "core" projects would be great14:18
cdentdefinite impedence mismatches going on14:18
ttxbasically I'm not sure we'll go ahead with this change -- but I'd hate it if we decided to ignore the issues and sweep the dust under the rug and pretend everything is perfect14:19
ttxeven if it's not the perfect solution, we still have a (set of) problem(s) to solve.14:20
mugsie(i know we have a lack of people who know how to do that, and their time is limited, but that was a major rats nest that meant instead of us doing work at the PTG we were trying to debug  gate issue with 2 or 3 different tools)14:20
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cdentttx: I think broaching the problem(s) is a good first step, but we need to be more diligent about tracing some of the underlying issues14:21
* TheJulia drifts in with a cup of coffee in hand14:21
cdentthere are a lot of messages in that thread which, had we the time, we should actually investigate14:21
fungittx: as for your tl;dr, 118 message thread on the dev ml _and_ another 10 message thread on the ops ml just referring to it ;)14:23
ttxcdent: the Kubernetes steering committee maintains a backlog of stuff they want to address sometimes14:23
ttxhttps://github.com/kubernetes/steering/blob/master/backlog.md14:23
ttxI mean, I have my own list, but expressing it could help 1/ explaining what we'd like to do and 2/ sharnig the load14:25
dtroyerWe have known that the 6 month cycle is a compromise for a long time, and intentionally chose it.  The fundamental tradeoffs do not appear to have changed.  Tweaking it a month or two in either direction would be a small adjustment to account for community changes over the last few years, but that loses to the desire to stick to a clean multiple of releases per calendar year.14:25
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dtroyerDo we see anything this time around that has significantly changed (up or down) in importance in reaching the compromise?14:25
fungiit does seem like making the compromise has gotten incrementally harder cycle after cycle14:26
ttxdtroyer: shouldn't you be sleeping?14:26
ttxAlso you have remarkable thoughts given your local time14:26
dtroyermaybe we need a condorcet vote on the traceoff issues?14:26
fungii don't expect it to be any one cycle in particular where we suddenly make a jump from "things are going just great!" to "onoz, fixitfixit!!!"14:27
dtroyerttx: my developer hat says yes, my human hat says it's 8:26, GET UP!14:27
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ttxSo another fun change I've been toying with is the idea of getting rid of PTLs and use a lead concept. Biut I figure we could wait until January until we do another giant thread14:28
ttxi.e. have lead or co-leads at the top of project teams14:28
ttxand use the TC in case of lock14:29
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cdentttx what's the difference?14:29
cmurphywas just about to ask the same14:29
mugsieone is elected, one isn't?14:29
ttxcdent: no electionm can be multiple people sharing the load14:29
ttxcdent: no election, can be multiple people sharing the load14:29
cmurphywe already kind of have that though14:30
cdentokay, but what would that change, or leverage?14:30
cmurphythis cycle almost none of the PTLs had to really be elected14:30
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dtroyerwe have had teams occasionally say "these two are sharing the ptl job" and only picked one name for the slot because we enforced one name for the slot.14:30
ttxcdent: we had that discussion at the k8s/openstack meeting. Their lead system makes it easier to share the load14:31
ttxit's also more fluid14:31
ttxadd onem remove one14:31
ttxadd one, remove one14:31
persiaReducing enforcement of only one name is probably a soft change that might help in cases where there are a couple.  On the other hand, when there are more than one potentials, those not elected tend to be fairly involved in the next cycle.14:31
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ttxthe only drawback of the k8s system is that there is no natural time to step down14:32
cdentIt doesn't sound like it gets to any root issues though? It's sort of a shuffling of the cards to see what changes14:32
cdentof course: what are the root issues is a useful question14:32
cmurphyttx: again, we already have that - lately PTLship is coordinated with an informal handoff, with the election process officializing it14:32
dtroyereven if the need for an actual election is small, I'm not comfortable with removing the 'elected' aspect of our project leadership.  I think it is important to leave the ultimate choice with the contributors14:32
mugsiecmurphy: ++14:32
ttxcdent: I disagree. Root issue that this would solve is the difficulty to spread teh PTL load14:32
persiattx: Are many PTLs calling for this?14:33
ttxPTLs still do too much despite us saying they should spread the load14:33
mugsiettx: I think that is more of a human issue - PTLs can already delagate most of their work to other project members14:33
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ttxIt's easier to spread teh load if everyone can call themselves "lead"14:33
dtroyerPTLs who can not spread the load (/me looks in the mirror) have themselves to blame.14:34
mugsiesure, but you will always end up with one "lead lead" who herds the leads14:34
cdentHmmm. Having never been a PTL I don't really know, but I wouldn't have put the struggles of the ptl high on the list of probles facing the entire community14:34
dtroyerif it is a title thing to help get resources through corporate management, we can address titles14:34
ttxI don't know. I said I've been toying with the idea over the last week, trying to see the implications14:35
cmurphyPTLs should take responsibility for delegating, and cores who see themselves as some day taking the mantle already step up to take some of the responsibilities14:35
dtroyercdent: I can only speak from the standpoint of a really small project.  In my case, it isn't14:35
mugsiettx: is there many PTLs that are worried about the PTL duties taking up time, vs work that has to be done in the project that PTL just does because no one else will?14:35
fungii am curious how having a project team "lead" effectively differs from having a "project team lead"14:36
ttxfungi: the only difference is that multiple people can hold the "role"14:36
ttxso you avoid the funnel effect14:36
dtroyerfungi likes the associative properties of double-quotes14:36
fungiwe hold elections only if more than one person wants to be the primary for a given team, but we don't say people can't work together and delegate/share the load (in fact we encourage doing that, right?)14:37
cmurphyfungi: maybe we're not doing a good enough job of that14:37
ttxone obvious issue is that it introduces a bit of fuzziness... You have to contact 2-3 leads instead of one person14:37
ttxand then it might become nobody's problem to answer14:37
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persiaI have heard the PTL job described as "the person who says no": while this isn't complete, that function is weakened without clear identification.14:38
fungiwell, also in most cases i've seen, the people elected to be ptl are the ones who are doing a lot of the administrivia, rather than the other way around (they don't do those tasks because they're ptl, they're ptl because they do those tasks)14:38
ttxexcept nobody ever says no :)14:39
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cdentI reckon changing the ptl role is a bit of distraction, beacuse of exactly what ttx says: we have no created the culture where it is easy to say no14:40
mriedemi've said no a lot in the past14:40
mriedemmainly around FFEs14:40
mriedemand spec freeze exceptions14:40
fungithat's not entirely true (i feel like i said no to people rather frequently in my time as infra ptl, and i expect other ptls feel the same). i do agree there's a lot of pressure to please though14:40
ttxis it the PTL who says no though14:41
ttxor the "leaders"14:41
cdentmriedem: you don't say no enough14:41
ttxi.e the consensus of the leadership group14:41
ttxhow much of it is personal14:41
fungimore often than being the person who says no, the ptl is the person tasked with bringing multiple parties to a point of compromise14:41
cmurphywhat if there's disagreement amonog the leaders?14:41
cdentmriedem: it's great that you do what you do, but unfortunately to be sane, nova would need to say no a ton more14:41
ttxcmurphy: in k8s they solve it at the steering committee level14:42
dtroyerttx: formally it is the PTL  regardless, as when you sit at the top everything flows uphill.    (Hmmm, is this where Zing's inverted pyramid makes the analogy better? ")14:42
ttx(so for us, that would be TC escalation14:42
persiaSteering committes are dangerous: they separate the direction from the polity.14:42
ttxthat's fair14:42
cmurphyttx: I don't feel like I have the context to be able to make decisions like that for e.g. nova14:42
persiaThe TC has previously stepped away from steering decisions, which is probably wise.  Undelegating those sorts of things ends up putting more pressure on TC.14:42
ttxindeed.14:43
ttxOK, just wanted to run the idea through y'all and see how much of it is desirable/applicable in our case14:43
cdentmaybe it has less to do with saying no and more to do with _focused_ leadership14:43
ttxOne key difference really is that we are a collection of projects14:43
ttxso that intermediary safety valve is actually useful14:44
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ttxwhile in Kubernetes it's a single (large)  project14:44
dtroyercdent: it has a lot to do with "My Thing" being told yes or no.14:44
ttxwhere they organize teams below something that can/should still make technical calls for the project14:45
cdentdtroyer: yeah, but I was trying to make a more positive spin on it. When there are clear shared goals that are limited, people can usually figure out what to do.14:45
cdentwe're not great on the goals part, and especially not great on the sharing part14:45
dtroyercdent: and they usually do.  But they're not the noisy ones14:45
smcginnisLosing a PTL role could be risky. At least for me, once I became PTL, it worked in a positive way to be able to go to my management and justify that I needed to be able to devote more time to OpenStack because of it.14:46
ttxin case you were wondering, I like to play devil's advocate14:46
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ttxLets me check that my landscape of drawbacks/benefits is actually complete14:46
smcginnisAnd I've seen in some cases where going for, and eventually getting, elected PTL was an impetus for someone to become more involved and learn to do more of the adminstrivia.14:46
ttxsmcginnis: in k8s multiple people get the "corporate benefit" from being lead14:47
smcginnisttx: I'm not entirely convinved there. At least not yet.14:48
ttxleading to more people getting involved in work coordination14:48
smcginnisttx: I think it may actually be going the other direction.14:48
smcginnisThe "corporate benefit" might be driving who is able to lead.14:48
ttxhah!14:48
fungiyou could assert similar things about people appointed to core review teams for that matter14:49
fungiand yes, sorting out causation in these correlations can be tricky14:49
mriedemfwiw, when i was working toward nova core, it was a goal on my yearly business goals thingy at ibm14:50
mriedemso definitely something pushed by my management14:50
mriedemwhich at the time i thought they were nuts14:50
persiaI thought that for k8s it was explicit: perhaps the presentations made by k8s project officials to different audiences differ, or perhaps I ended up attenting a talk by someone who had erred when trying to appeal to folk not often considered "community".14:50
cdentmaking comparisons to k8s (especially with regard to corp engagement) probably dangerous given difference in hype cycle14:50
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mriedembefore i left ibm, being ptl was the only reason i really got to still work on the project14:50
smcginnismriedem: I would be afraid to lose that. I don't think you are the only one that has been in that situation.14:52
mriedemat this point we don't have a bunch of people running in elections, but for a larger project with still active contributors, i think a point person is important14:53
mriedemthere are multiple leads, but a lot of the leads don't want to be doing administrative work14:53
mriedembut there is nothing preventing people from "sharing the load"14:54
mriedemi helped john when he was ptl by doing stable stuff, some of the release work, and running the US timezone meeting14:54
ttxmriedem: posted a TL;DR for the 1-year cycle thread, please make sure your concerns are covered in my summary14:55
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mriedemi will resist the temptation to read that until after i've actually completed my todo list for today14:56
cdentI think we continue to operate in a relatively fearful position: people who are heavily invested want what amounts to a lifestyle to continue so perform heroics to maintain the output that OpenStack maintains. The fear is that if we start looking at changing that output, then the lifestyle collapses. How much of that fear is rational?14:57
cdentWe seem deeply reluctant to turn to the corporate world and say "we're under resourced for this velocity"14:58
mriedemi think we've been saying that for a long time,14:58
cdentto each other14:58
mriedemi frequently point out what we *aren't* getting done b/c of lack of resources14:58
smcginnisPeople don't like change, no matter what.14:58
cdentI think we don't invite true investigation because there's fear the boondoggle falls down14:59
mriedemonce in a rare while we actually get a corporate user stakeholder devote a good developer to help move something forward,14:59
mriedemcase in point, stvnoys in the cinder new attach flow in nova in pike14:59
mriedem*stvnoyes14:59
cdenteverything we talk about in terms of changing release cycles or doubling up ptls is not really addressing real issues15:00
ttxcdent: yes there is some of that, definitely15:00
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* cdent pauses for some food15:01
ttxgood idea15:01
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EmilienMttx: thx for the summary15:53
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flaper87ttx: +1 for the summary!15:58
cmurphy++ is a good summary15:58
flaper87I expect the summary to explode too :P15:59
flaper87perhaps not the same magnitude as the original thread15:59
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openstackgerritThierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Upgrade assertion tags only apply to services  https://review.openstack.org/52874516:02
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openstackgerritLance Bragstad proposed openstack/governance master: Update policy artifacts for tacker  https://review.openstack.org/51351521:49
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