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| amrith | popcorn, check | 00:50 |
|---|---|---|
| amrith | comfy chair, check | 00:50 |
| amrith | tv on | 00:50 |
| amrith | now let that dims guy show up ... | 00:50 |
| amrith | no popcorn at tc office hours they said ... | 00:51 |
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| amrith | anybody home for tc office hours ? | 01:01 |
| * fungi is feeling hourly | 01:01 | |
| dims | o/ | 01:01 |
| amrith | hello fungi I had my popcorn at the ready, I was just waiting for dims to come by and shoo me off | 01:01 |
| dims | lol | 01:02 |
| amrith | ah, there's dims ... | 01:02 |
| amrith | but I do have a real question for you ... | 01:02 |
| amrith | let me go find my paste | 01:02 |
| fungi | who said no popcorn? there's totally popcorn in my tc office | 01:02 |
| amrith | fungi, the issue I have for the TC is that dims told me that there would be no popcorn allowed at TC office hours | 01:03 |
| * dims hands amrith some wine | 01:03 | |
| * fungi will need a wine which pairs well with popcorn | 01:04 | |
| * amrith is off booze; put on 10lb at PTG and opendev, have to lose all of it by mid October ... national qualifiers in NH (Oct 13-15) | 01:04 | |
| amrith | so my question for the tc office hours had to do with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/488947/ | 01:04 |
| amrith | this is my last act on Trove before handing over the baton | 01:04 |
| * fungi looks | 01:05 | |
| dims | amrith : can we get the new folks to vote there? since they will be carrying the torch | 01:06 |
| amrith | sure, they did and said they were beginning to work on it; see manoj's comment. | 01:06 |
| amrith | "There are several areas where I believe we can continue to make progress: ..." | 01:07 |
| amrith | the issue is that they 'can' continue to make progress, the intent of the tag is to signal to potential users that the project is in a degraded state. | 01:07 |
| amrith | at least that was the intent of the tag. | 01:07 |
| dims | right, do they agree to the label? | 01:07 |
| dims | (not sure we need that stamp from them) | 01:08 |
| amrith | would've been good if dhellmann was here, I'll chat with him tomorrow, that may be more appropriate. | 01:08 |
| fungi | even just a code-review +1 from manoj would satisfy me | 01:08 |
| amrith | dims I can't (shouldn't) speak for them | 01:08 |
| amrith | manoj posted a coment, he didn't post a score | 01:08 |
| dims | right fungi | 01:08 |
| amrith | see 9/24 12:07 | 01:08 |
| fungi | yep, i read the comment | 01:09 |
| dims | right amrith | 01:09 |
| dims | brb | 01:09 |
| amrith | bring more wine | 01:09 |
| fungi | basically, the way i read that, manoj was in favor of deferring the tag application for now | 01:10 |
| fungi | in which case we could wip/abandon/untopic/whatever that change in the meantime | 01:10 |
| amrith | and revisit at what time, milestone, threshold? | 01:11 |
| amrith | happy to abandon the change, I'm going to be pushing up a new project anyway | 01:11 |
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| fungi | manoj says "over the next cycle or two" | 01:14 |
| fungi | but ultimately, i think it's up to him or any of his ptl successors to bring itup again | 01:14 |
| fungi | s/itup/it up/ | 01:14 |
| amrith | OK, so be it. I'll mark my patch -1 and leave it at that. | 01:16 |
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| fungi | i'll leave similar comments to the above on it as well | 01:18 |
| fungi | thanks for bringing it up, amrith! | 01:20 |
| fungi | also, looking forward to your new project | 01:20 |
| amrith | yes, hoard ... | 01:22 |
| dims | tell me more :) | 01:22 |
| amrith | dbaas, v2 | 01:23 |
| amrith | per my email to the ML June'ish. | 01:23 |
| dims | y i remember. cool | 01:24 |
| amrith | dims, here's the ML link http://openstack.markmail.org/thread/gfqext34xh5y37ir | 01:27 |
| amrith | thanks dims, fungi | 01:27 |
| fungi | not to be confused with the horde ;) | 01:28 |
| dims | LOL | 01:34 |
| * fungi used to run horde in production... so, so long ago | 01:41 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Raissa Sarmento proposed openstack/governance master: Add manila-tempest-plugin to manila project https://review.openstack.org/507906 | 15:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | Graham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Add Designate to the top 5 help wanted. https://review.openstack.org/504217 | 16:22 |
| openstackgerrit | Graham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Add Designate to the top 5 help wanted. https://review.openstack.org/504217 | 16:24 |
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| openstackgerrit | Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/governance master: Remove stable:follows-policy tag from TripleO https://review.openstack.org/507924 | 16:42 |
| openstackgerrit | Graham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Add Designate to the top 5 help wanted. https://review.openstack.org/504217 | 16:46 |
| cdent | EmilienM++ on that tripleo change. very pragmatic | 16:47 |
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| EmilienM | cdent: thanks for the feedback! I don't thing tags should hurt projects but rather help. In our case, I haven't seen any value to have it now, except we're more careful in what we backport | 16:48 |
| EmilienM | oops | 16:48 |
| EmilienM | he left :) | 16:48 |
| * EmilienM invokes cdent again | 16:48 | |
| kumarmn | missed the comments earlier. thanks amrith for the workflow-1 | 17:01 |
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| EmilienM | cdent: you missed my comment but : | 17:14 |
| EmilienM | thanks for the feedback! I don't thing tags should hurt projects but rather help. In our case, I haven't seen any value to have it now, except we're more careful in what we backport | 17:14 |
| EmilienM | thing/think* | 17:14 |
| * cdent nods | 17:14 | |
| cdent | yeah, I dashed off home from where I was to listening on a webcast meeting and but it has failed to work | 17:15 |
| EmilienM | I think the tag might be re-discussed or at least we need to bring (again) the LTS topic | 17:15 |
| EmilienM | I didn't invented what I wrote in my governance patch, it reflects what is actually happening | 17:15 |
| EmilienM | there is a strong disconnect between the current requirements to have the tag and the way we want to release TripleO | 17:16 |
| EmilienM | a larger issue is most of users are deploying master -2 release (or even -3 and sometimes older!) | 17:17 |
| dhellmann | I've never been all that sure the tag was a good fit for anything other than service projects anyway | 17:17 |
| cdent | yeah, I think dhellmann is right | 17:18 |
| EmilienM | I would like to understand what resources we need to engage to have LTS support (I know it's a hot topic btw :) | 17:18 |
| dhellmann | maybe libraries? I don't even know there | 17:18 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'd stay away from naming anything "LTS" | 17:18 |
| EmilienM | :) | 17:18 |
| dhellmann | the first step down that path is always to add more people to the existing stable team | 17:19 |
| dhellmann | and since that never happens, the conversation always dies out | 17:19 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 17:19 |
| dhellmann | though I suppose if someone is interested in 2+ releases back they may not care about 1 release back, yet, so I can see why there would be a disconnect | 17:19 |
| sdague | dhellmann: it's still important from the backport process, because any 2+ back release can't get fixes that don't go through all the intermediate layers, otherwise it's not a long supported branch, it's a fork | 17:20 |
| dhellmann | sure | 17:20 |
| dhellmann | I'm just saying I can see why it might be harder for someone wanting to work on newton to prioritize working on ocata | 17:21 |
| dhellmann | it's also easy to see why having that continuous chain is more important for service projects that need to have rolling upgrades than it is for deployment tools that don't necessarily work that way | 17:22 |
| sdague | dhellmann: that's true | 17:22 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: if I understand correctly, stable-maint team needs more humans | 17:28 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: I think Red Hat has 3 people unless I'm missing something, right? | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | I would have to ask tonyb for more details about how help is needed. I know that he's the only one reviewing stable releases right now. | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | at least I think he is | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | we should really write up all of the pre-conditions for extending the stable releases | 17:30 |
| dhellmann | there's the ongoing infra work to maintain images and tools | 17:30 |
| dhellmann | reviews & releases | 17:30 |
| dhellmann | I don't know where to put a document with that info. We need a community FAQ or something. | 17:31 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: I'm aware about re: infra needs more humans - and I think some progress is being made on that front (I know dmsimard is joining the efforts) - but on stable-maint, it's unclear to me what is needed | 17:33 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: I would be happy to push internal discussion to have more hands working on upstream stable-maint - but I think all of this is a lack of visibility in what needs to be done | 17:34 |
| dhellmann | we should get tonyb involved in that discussion | 17:34 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: we have an entire downstream team making the delivery working for us, I'm pretty sure they would love to contribute upstream | 17:35 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: and i'm pretty sure they just don't know how | 17:35 |
| EmilienM | and yes, +1 for having tonyb :D | 17:35 |
| cdent | EmilienM: do you feel that they have time? as I’ve travelled from the hat to mirantis to vmware the common theme is lack of time | 17:37 |
| EmilienM | cdent: nobody has time - it's a matter of prioritization and structure / organization | 17:37 |
| cdent | exactly my point | 17:37 |
| EmilienM | cdent: if these guys can do the same task ONCE, UPSTREAM, we win | 17:37 |
| EmilienM | right now, we're doing it TWICE, upstream AND downstream | 17:38 |
| cdent | so I don’t think it really is a matter of people needing to know what to do | 17:38 |
| EmilienM | cdent: well, you need to get these guys onboarded | 17:38 |
| cdent | it’s about management admitting and accepting it needs to be done | 17:38 |
| EmilienM | what do they need to review? where they can learn about policies? | 17:38 |
| EmilienM | cdent: our management already bought the fact we need more upstream involvment but we believe in double hat, where we're engaged in upstream projects as we're engage to make our customers happy (downstream) - and we think it comes with sharing / leveraring workloads | 17:40 |
| EmilienM | LTS would require more server because of more CI jobs? ok so give hardware | 17:40 |
| EmilienM | LTS would require more reviewers on release-maint reviews? mentor people so they become maintainers | 17:41 |
| * cdent is merely venting some frustration at organizational slowness | 17:41 | |
| EmilienM | I think our organization is ready for that, we already share the same vision, we just lack in the "how" right now | 17:41 |
| * EmilienM will talk with tonyb | 17:42 | |
| cdent | good luck | 17:43 |
| sdague | EmilienM: you are also probably running into the frustration of the fact that there is little incentive to develop a detailed project plan for people to go down the LTS route, as versions of that were done in the past and it was all wasted effort | 17:43 |
| EmilienM | sdague: most probably | 17:44 |
| sdague | I think the only way this gets resolved is someone says "I want to make an LTS happen" and starts figuring out what is needed. It's not something where a price tag is going to be handed out to someone. | 17:44 |
| EmilienM | right | 17:44 |
| dims | sdague : i have internal folks asking for it, but don't yet want to help with actually doing it | 18:23 |
| cdent | dims do they also believe in spontaneous combustion and santa claus? | 18:24 |
| EmilienM | lol | 18:24 |
| EmilienM | well santa cloud exists :P | 18:24 |
| * EmilienM leaves | 18:24 | |
| dims | cdent : my 11 year old still thinks there's santa!! | 18:24 |
| cdent | Santa Cloud! | 18:25 |
| dims | viva santa cloud :) | 18:25 |
| * EmilienM realizes it's a thing (google it) | 18:25 | |
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| mtreinish | cdent: that sounds like it could be a real town in silicon valley | 18:55 |
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| smcginnis | Missed the LTS discussion, but the thing I keep saying is it needs to be the vendors selling support working together. | 19:59 |
| smcginnis | Each of them is doing their own backporting to older releases and fixing things separately on their own. | 19:59 |
| cdent | I suspect many of the vendors need to hang on to to something to disgtinguish themselves | 19:59 |
| smcginnis | If they all can work together openly, then they all win. | 19:59 |
| smcginnis | cdent: That's the mentality that needs to be overcome. | 20:00 |
| cdent | and in that sense, having a same lts isn’t a win | 20:00 |
| cdent | agreed | 20:00 |
| smcginnis | It's the usual vendor marketing "how do we differentiate ourselves with OpenStack". | 20:00 |
| cdent | Is it true that the number of outright vendors is shrinking? I’m never sure | 20:01 |
| mtreinish | smcginnis: that was the original motivation for the stable team, but it hasn't worked out that way | 20:01 |
| cdent | I still sometimes wonder if we should even do stable branches at all, upstream | 20:01 |
| smcginnis | mtreinish: I think it's been positioned wrong as an upstream problem. | 20:02 |
| cdent | or at least anything more than master +1 | 20:02 |
| smcginnis | IMO, it's not something to be solved upstream. | 20:02 |
| cdent | not because I think that is a good idea, but because it’s realistic | 20:02 |
| mtreinish | cdent: right really as long as we have something upgrade test from that's all we really need | 20:02 |
| cdent | there’s already too much complexity upstream | 20:02 |
| * mtreinish thinks his last sentence needs at least 2 more reallys in it.... | 20:03 | |
| cdent | I really like the idea of the corporate collaboration thing, but … | 20:03 |
| cdent | do you really think so? | 20:03 |
| cdent | really really? | 20:03 |
| smcginnis | I agree. Upstream should just be N and validating N-1 upgradability. | 20:03 |
| mtreinish | cdent: really really really | 20:03 |
| cdent | wow | 20:03 |
| smcginnis | Shoot, brb. | 20:03 |
| mtreinish | smcginnis: what I meant was the stable team was meant for vendors to come together and do the backporting effort together | 20:04 |
| mtreinish | literally what you're talking about having, it just all of the vendors stopped working on it really and now it's just a handful of people | 20:05 |
| cdent | earlier EmilienM was suggesting that red hat might be convinced to reinvest | 20:06 |
| mtreinish | cdent: well tonyb is the one mostly keeping stable afloat and he's there now :) | 20:07 |
| * cdent nods | 20:07 | |
| EmilienM | smcginnis: what do you mean exactly by "just be N and validating N-1 upgradability" ? do you think we should keep only one stable branch? | 20:09 |
| smcginnis | EmilienM: Just that that should be the focus for upstream. Beyond that I would like to see a collaborative effort by the vendors using OpenStack to keep stable/LTS/whatever you want to call it. | 20:16 |
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