Thursday, 2014-03-06

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notmynamecan someone else +2 https://review.openstack.org/#/c/78070/ (it's a really simple change)00:03
notmynamewell, review it and add your +2 if you like it :-)00:03
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torgomaticanyone know why normalize_timestamp uses a 10.5 format and not 10.6?00:34
torgomaticI thought we had microsecond resolution00:35
torgomaticI looked in the git history, but it all goes back to the initial commit00:37
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openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/swift: Send policy index on async update  https://review.openstack.org/7170200:42
openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/swift: Send policy index to container on sync update  https://review.openstack.org/7170300:42
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openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/swift: Fix a couple typos  https://review.openstack.org/7704100:53
openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/swift: Make internal client work with conf.d  https://review.openstack.org/7813300:53
openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/python-swiftclient: Make the help strings constant  https://review.openstack.org/7457800:54
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openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/python-swiftclient: Help string format persistent  https://review.openstack.org/7663000:57
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openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/swift: sanity check copy tests  https://review.openstack.org/7781102:06
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portantetorgomatic: I had wondered that same thing a while back, as it means there is a slightly higher possibility of false collisions02:56
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madhuriHi, can anyone tell me what happens when metadata for object is set to empty in POST method?05:09
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portantedo you mean, the x-object-metadata is present but empty?05:18
portantemadhuri, or do you mean when the header is not included at all in the REST API request?05:18
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madhuriportante: No, I include it in header and pass empty value for it.05:21
madhuriportante: When I set it to empty and HEAD it, it is not displayed in output. But resp.headers contain it with empty value. Is my understanding correct?05:21
portanteI'll have to check05:22
madhuriportante: Ok05:22
madhuriportante: http://pastebin.com/52DnWZ4z05:24
openstackgerritPeter Portante proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add missing swift constraint for functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/7852205:26
portantetorgomatic, notmyname, clayg: can you guys consider the above?05:27
portanteI'd like to see that fix land before we try to work through the in-process functional tests05:27
portantemadhuri: okay05:27
portanteso a POST of an object replaces all the metadata entirely.05:27
portanteso it is effectively deleting the metadata when you include the header with an empty value05:28
portantebut I don't see the empty header in the example you gave above05:29
madhuriportante: Yes05:30
madhuriportante: but the response header include the metadata with a empty value05:30
madhuriportante: I am writing a test for it. And the response header is : Response header is {'Content-Length': '0', 'Last-Modified': 'Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:15:32 GMT', 'Etag': '"d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e"', 'X-Timestamp': '1394082931.50516', 'X-Object-Meta-1': '', 'Content-Type': 'application/x-test'}05:31
portantemadhuri: I was confused, because I don't see that header in your pastebin05:35
portanteah05:35
portanteyou mean the response header of the POST operation?05:35
madhuriportante: No, response header in HEAD method.05:36
portanteokay, so I am back to being confused05:36
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portantethe pastebin you posted above seems to show no X-Object-Meta-test header in the HEAD response05:37
madhuriportante: The POST header is just this {'Content-Length': '76', 'Content-Type': 'text/html; charset=UTF-8'}05:37
portanteokay05:37
madhuriportante: Yes. My understanding is same too and according to me it is working properly.05:38
madhuriportante: But the response header includes it.05:38
portanteI am still confused as to what is happening05:38
portanteone example you are showing me seems to NOT have it, the other example does have it05:39
portantedo you agree?05:39
madhuriportante: Yes05:39
madhuriportante: I have written a test for it i.e setting metadata to empty05:40
madhuriportante: acoording to me the metadata must be deleted and must not show up in HEAD method. Right??05:40
portanteIt looks like the code is going to store the blank value, and it should be returned that way05:42
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madhuriportante: Yes emtpy value is stored. But it doesn't show up in output of HEAD. So why is it stored?05:58
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portanteit is stored because it is present in the headers, and so we store it as is06:09
portantewhy it does not show up in the HEAD response is another question06:09
madhuriportante: Ok.06:10
madhuriportante: But this doen't follow in account metadata.06:10
madhuriportante: If we set account metadata to empty, it is not present in response header.06:11
madhuriportante: :(06:11
portanteah06:11
portanteokay, so container and account metadata is handled differently than object06:11
portantefor account and container metadata, a POST only updates the metadata referenced, where as a POST on an object must include all the metadata in the request06:12
portantemadhuri:06:12
madhuriportante: Thanks a tonne. But it is confusing a bit06:13
madhuriportante: One more question06:16
madhuriportante:  https://github.com/openstack/swift/blob/master/swift/account/server.py#L10006:16
madhuriportante: https://github.com/openstack/swift/blob/master/swift/account/server.py#L8006:17
madhuriportante: Why we are checking the status of account twice?06:17
portantemadhuri: not sure why exactly, would have to look into it06:23
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madhuriportante: So can I add a test for empty metadata for object?06:25
portantesure, go ahead a propose a patch so that we can discuss the details concretely06:28
portanteI'm gonna sign off now, g'nite06:28
madhuriportante: Thank you :)06:29
madhuriportante: Good night.06:29
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openstackgerritPeter Portante proposed a change to openstack/swift: In-process swift server for functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/6610806:55
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openstackgerritMadhuri Kumari proposed a change to openstack/swift: Added a test for empty metadata  https://review.openstack.org/7853007:07
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openstackgerritChristian Schwede proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add containeralias middleware  https://review.openstack.org/6249408:46
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openstackgerritMadhuri Kumari proposed a change to openstack/swift: Added a test for empty metadata  https://review.openstack.org/7853010:03
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peluseportante:  you there?15:06
portanteyes15:07
portantepeluse: good morning15:07
pelusegood morning!15:08
pelusehey, for that split exception we were talking about... I'm just catching it in the rcvr now and both logging a warn and raising, think that's good?  (pasting example)15:09
portantek15:09
portantehmm15:09
peluseMar  6 08:13:12 sw2 object-server: ERROR:  Replication parameter mismatch, possibly using policies with partially upgraded cluster?15:09
peluseMar  6 08:13:12 sw2 object-server: 127.0.0.1/sdb2/684 EXCEPTION in replication.Receiver: #012Traceback (most recent call last):#012  File "/home/peluse/swift/swift/obj/ssync_receiver.py", line 104, in __call__#012    for data in self.missing_check():#012  File "/home/peluse/swift/swift/obj/ssync_receiver.py", line 231, in missing_check#012    [urllib.unquote(v) for v in line.split()]15:09
peluse#012ValueError: need more than 2 values to unpack15:09
portanteso this is a new receiver catching a bad message from an old sender, right?15:10
pelusethis is an old rcvd getting a msg from a new sender15:10
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pelusercvr15:10
portantebut can we really change the old rcvr code?15:11
portanteare you making a change on master for the rcvr?15:11
pelusecrap, have to take kids to school... back in a bit (sorry)15:12
portantek, no problem15:12
peluseback for a few... so that change would cover new rcvr old sender (I wrote it backwards) and a similar change can be added to the sender to catch new sender old rcvr.  We can cover it both directions15:22
portanteyes15:22
peluseOK, cool :)15:23
portanteexcept you don't need to do a warning that way, I don't think15:23
portantemeaning15:23
portantewe can support old -> new, but it is the new -> old case that is the one we want a warning for15:23
portantedoes that make sense?15:23
peluseit does.. thanks15:24
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peluseso for the rcvr, I should just catch the error and set the index to 0 (not raise or even wwarn) then right?15:25
portanteyes15:25
pelusegot it, thanks.  how can something so simple be so confusing :)15:25
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portantefor a new sender, if the sent message is returned with a 500, then we might want to warn about a mismatch15:25
portante;)15:26
pelusecool, look for the updated patch a bit later.  Have a few hrs of mtgs first then I'll wrap it up15:26
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portantek, thx15:27
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peluseBTW, I'm going to setup a cluster and see if I can't perform a rolling upgrade going from master to featre/ec and see what else crops up, I have a feeling there are a few situations like this that haven't been uncovered yet15:31
portantegreat idea15:31
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luisbgmorning15:39
portantegood morning15:39
pelusemorning15:40
luisbgportante, and peluse, :)15:41
portanteluisbg: good morning15:44
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peluseportante:  on the sender side (new sender old rcvr) I don't get any specific error info back when an exception happens on the rcvr, Looks like if anything goes wrong on the rcv side the sender simply does exceptions.ReplicationException('Early disconnect')16:03
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portantepeluse: what does that translate to for an HTTP response status code?16:07
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pelusechecking...16:11
pelusethere's nothing in the response body16:12
portanteso, what about the HTTP response headers?16:13
portanteand what is the response status code?16:13
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openstackgerritMadhuri Kumari proposed a change to openstack/swift: Added a test for empty metadata  https://review.openstack.org/7853016:16
peluseportante:  can't seem to get that info16:20
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portantehmm16:23
pelusesee if this makes any sense to you - this is new sender to old rcvr error:  https://gist.github.com/peluse/939338316:24
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portantepeluse, we have to find out about that exception and what that leads to16:26
portantecan you turn on request logging for the object server?16:26
portanteit appears to be turned off16:27
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peluseI thought it was on by default, just set it explciitly but don't see any difference.  The exception in what I posted is expected though as I'm creating the scenario new-->old, the question is how to detect it from the sender and all I get is a blank response and a rsp code of 20016:33
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portantehmmm16:40
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portantepeluse: I am tracking down another work item, can I look at this later if nobody else gets to it?16:40
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peluseportante:  no problem16:44
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peluseI'll keep digging too16:44
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peluseI'll also check with gholt later on as well...16:45
portantek16:46
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notmynamehello world17:28
ccorrigan:notmyname :)17:29
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portantenotmyname: hello worldling17:55
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taras__hi guys, i'm a firefox dev who does a lot with sqlite. i read that swift uses sqlite as a key/value mapping to match keys and objects18:02
taras__sounds like there might be some similar problems to what i fixed in ff in swift18:03
notmynametaras__: sortof. we use sqlite for keeping listings of containers and objects18:03
taras__could someone do me a favor and run filefrag on the sqlite db for a production bucket with a large number of objects?18:03
taras__s/production/anything that's been in use for a while/18:04
taras__when i last tested this, xfs and filefrag had some serious fragmentation issues that would kill sqlite throughput18:05
taras__xfs and sqlite i mean18:05
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taras__notmyname: listings of objects is the case that might be hurting18:07
taras__this is based on what i read in http://engineering.spilgames.com/openstack-swift-lots-small-files/18:08
openstackgerritPeter Portante proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add missing swift constraint for functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/7852218:10
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openstackgerritPeter Portante proposed a change to openstack/swift: In-process swift server for functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/6610818:12
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jogoso we are seeing a new swift failure in gate http://paste.openstack.org/show/72806/18:23
jogowondering if this has been seen before and if there is a bug18:23
notmynamejogo: not that I know of, but I'm looking18:25
jogonotmyname: cool, also not sure if this is a tempest issue or swift18:25
notmynamejogo: not a lot of info there18:26
jogonotmyname: no :/18:26
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jogonotmyname: but there is a recent spike in hits18:27
claygjogo!18:27
jogoclayg!18:28
* jogo waves at clayg18:28
notmynamejogo: I can't really tell too much from that output. looks like it's testing something to do with quotas. but I don't know what test is failing. do you have a link to the actual test that is failing?18:28
jogohttp://logs.openstack.org/79/71479/16/check/check-tempest-dsvm-postgres-full/309394e/logs/testr_results.html.gz18:29
jogonotmyname: not sure if that helps18:29
notmynamejogo: that's exactly the same thing18:29
notmynamewhere's the tempest code? /me goes to look18:29
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jogonotmyname: only one change to  tempest/api/object_storage/test_account_quotas_negative.py recently and it doesn't look related18:30
jogoit landed on the 1st18:31
portanteare all the servers up and running?18:31
notmynamehmm..my local copy is 1523 commits out of date...18:31
portantejogo, notmyname, we have seen times in the past where the server processes fail to start during some tests18:32
notmynameya18:32
notmynamealso account quotas rely on the updater process (so aren't immediately updated)18:32
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portantenotmyname: the updater process meaning the container updater18:34
portanteright?18:35
portantenot the object updater, or do you mean both18:35
jogonotmyname portante: filed a swift/tempest  bug for this  https://bugs.launchpad.net/tempest/+bug/128891818:35
notmynameyes, eventually. so that the used bytes in the account db are right and a quota can be enforced (assuming the object isn't bigger than the quota)18:35
notmynamehmm...looks like tempest is setting the quota to 20 bytes and then trying to upload a 30 byte object18:37
jogonotmyname: are you fine with using this as a fingerprint until we know more: message:" File \"tempest/api/object_storage/test_account_quotas_negative.py\"" AND message:" in test_upload_large_object" AND filename:"console.html"18:39
jogofor elastic-recheck18:40
notmynamejogo: I have no opinions on that18:43
jogokk18:44
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joeljwrighthi everyone, I wanted to get some advice about the blueprint process for python-swiftclient18:47
joeljwrightI've got a few projects that have been accessing swift using python, but there was a lot of logic buried in bin/swift that wasn't importable18:48
joeljwrightI refactored that code out into a swift service and registered a blueprint18:49
clayggood god why didn't we make 'swift capabilities' just 'swift info' - heck it even matches the /info url better?18:49
joeljwrightthought it might be useful to others18:49
notmynamepractice spelling capibili...capabilety...capabilities18:50
portantecapibara?18:50
notmynamejoeljwright: sounds good. love to see the patches. don't worry about the blueprints. among other things, LP has no alerting for when blueprints are registered, so I doubt anyone has even looked at it18:50
joeljwrightah ok18:51
StevenKHm, there is blueprint notification. I thought notify on create worked. Oh well.18:51
joeljwrightit's unfinished, and needs more work before it's ready, but I'm willing to put in the time if it's interesting18:52
openstackgerritClay Gerrard proposed a change to openstack/python-swiftclient: add "info" as an alias to "capabilities"  https://review.openstack.org/7871018:52
clayg^ so much better18:52
joeljwrightwas hoping to guage interest before I spend a lot of time polishing and writing tests18:52
joeljwrightnotmyname: have a forked github repo here: https://github.com/sohonetlabs/python-swiftclient18:53
notmynamejoeljwright: https://github.com/sohonetlabs/python-swiftclient/commit/357cd3cb7d22cf020119d250fded4b7060a45dfa ?18:54
notmynameStevenK: I'd be happy to be corrected, if you can point me to the setting to get alerts on new blueprints18:55
StevenKnotmyname: I was thinking about the code itself. Notifications tend to have no settings at all.18:56
joeljwrightnotmyname: unfortunately it's evolved over a long period and gone through 2 versions18:57
joeljwrightvast majority of the logic in bin/swift has moved into swiftclient/service.py18:57
joeljwrightso bin/swift is just arg parsing and output18:57
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claygjoeljwright: that all looks pretty good to me18:58
claygjust put that diff up as a patch18:58
notmynamejoeljwright: in general, I think we'd all support that. among other things, it would really help out for test coverage. there has been some similar work in the swift repo too (but using a "cli" directory rather than a services module--see https://github.com/openstack/swift/tree/master/swift/cli)18:58
notmynamejogo: FWIW, it works for me in my SAIO. I set the quota to 20 and upload ~40 bytes and get a 413 (as expected)18:59
jogonotmyname: not surprised, this works most of the time in gate too19:01
jogonotmyname: only 4 failures or so in last 24 hours19:01
jogoso very infrequent19:01
notmynamealso, FWIW, I had no background jobs running (/cc portante)19:01
joeljwrightclayg: the problem with a diff atm is that I forked the python-swiftclient code in Nov last year, so there have obviously been a lot of changes since then19:05
notmynameyup19:05
joeljwrightnotmyname: it's good to know that the general idea is one that would be supported19:05
joeljwrightI'll certainly spend some time rebasing onto a newer version, writing tests and cleaning up19:06
joeljwrightunfortunately I'm away travelling for the next 2 weeks, but I'll continue working on it when I get back19:07
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openstackgerritFabien Boucher proposed a change to openstack/python-swiftclient: Allow get_account and get_container to return an iterator  https://review.openstack.org/7484519:24
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openstackgerritpaul luse proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add Storage Policy Support to ssync  https://review.openstack.org/6534719:51
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pelusegholt:  you out there?19:51
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gholtpeluse: Yessir20:11
gholtI'm waaaay out there20:11
creihtlol20:17
pelusequestion:  looking at a scenario where polices have been partially deployed in a cluster (during upgrade) and the sender (ssync) sends a parm (policy idx) in the msg that the rcvr (not yet upgraded) doesn't understand.  The rcv will get an exception and I'm looking to see if there's a way the sender can detect it.  Right now it looks like I get a 200 resp and an 'early disconnect' w/no20:19
peluseaddtl info20:19
pelusewondering if there's any way for the sender to know more about what happened at the rcvr...20:19
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portanteso that as the cluster rolls over to the new code, new ssync senders start sending to old ssync receiver nodes ...20:20
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gholtpeluse: I'm sure there can be a way, but it might need to be coded up.20:35
gholtI assume you're hitting one of the except Exception catchers and it's not sending anything back to the sender, just dropping the connection.20:36
pelusegholt:  thanks, yeah it didn't look like the error handling that's there would lend itself real well to having the sender get details about issues at the rcv other than "didn't work"20:36
gholtWell, there are some error handled, like 408 (timeout) and such.20:36
gholtBut no, I didn't handle this future condition I didn't know about. :D20:37
pelusegiven that ssync isn't "production" yet though, I wonder if we have a legacy case to worry about... is there a timeframe when we'll support ssync as production?20:37
pelusegholt:  heh, how could not have predicted this :)20:38
gholtIt's production for at least one cluster I know of. And probably 5 more clusters soon enough.20:38
gholtBut yeah, it is just me. I can't imagine anybody else is really testing ssync yet.20:38
gholtI personally wouldn't mind if it just didn't work with a kind of unclear reason. I'm pretty sure I could tell what was happening in the logs, right?20:39
gholtOn the receiver side that is.20:39
pelusegholt:  On the rcvr side you will see an exception for a .split that's complaining about not having the right number of values20:40
portantetraceback and all20:40
gholtYeah, I'm completely fine with that, as the only ssync production user. And I can check for that particular error after some time to see if maybe an upgrade failed on a server.20:40
pelusegholt: so then the sender gets an 'early disconnect' error and moves on.  was hoping to isolate that specific error and put something in the log saying "hey this is due to mismatch of swift versions"20:40
pelusegholt:  cool, FWIW it is coded to correctly handle the other mismatch where the rcvr has been upgraded but the sender hasn't yet...20:41
gholtYeah, I'm surprised you don't get back *something* from the first except Exception as err20:41
peluseI posted the err, one sec20:42
gholtIt has a yield .... str(err) that should've been sent back to the sender. But if that fails, then it just logs and moves on of course20:42
pelusehttps://gist.github.com/peluse/9393383 is what you'll see in the logs20:42
gholtThat's the sender side right? What's the receiver side log?20:43
gholtOh that is the receiver, that is a bit confusing. :(20:43
peluseyeah, its my AIO20:44
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gholtHah, gotcha. I was just reading the STDOUT exception. didn't see the other one way to the right20:44
openstackgerritClay Gerrard proposed a change to openstack/swift: make probetests work with conf.d configs  https://review.openstack.org/7875320:45
clayg^ yes!  negative diff!20:45
peluseso I see the yield ':ERROR: %d %r\n' % (0, str(err)) that you were talking about but I don't see it on the sender side anywhere (how to get at that info)?20:45
gholtpeluse: So that definitely means that it sent the error line back to the sender20:45
gholtOn that I'm not sure. ;)20:46
gholtMaybe a case of catching the broken pipe error and then attempting to read anything from the socket.20:46
gholtI would definitely consider it extra credit, but it could be useful (esp someday in the future)20:47
pelusegholt:  cool, I may mess with it a bit and let you know how it goes20:48
claygpeluse: so torgomatic is working on something similar for the container-replicator - basically teaching the reciever how to read both formats but then having the sender send the *old* format until there's acctually a second (non-default) storage policy20:48
claygpeluse: the idea is that you'll update your cluster to the new storage policy code before you acctually turn on a new storage policy - so by the time you start sending the new format everyone knows how to read it.20:49
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gholtThe 2step; always fun. :)20:50
gholtI guess 3step if you include the last part removing the crappy old version of the code. But we seldom do that since we don't know when everybody upgrades...20:51
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peluseclayg:  cool... so the thinking is that the docs will clearly state that you can't start creating new policies until all nodes are udpated.  Until then, the issue with ssync is that w/o any kind of API versioning between the two, the sender can't know when its OK to use the new msg format to the rcvr so it just starts sending the new format when the node is updated...20:54
peluseand then the rcvr gets a msg it doens't understand until its updated20:54
claygpeluse: so send the old format20:54
peluseclayg: until when?20:55
claygpeluse: until swift.conf has a storage-policy:1 ???20:55
peluseclayg: ahh....20:55
clayg;)20:56
claygit was torgomatic's idea20:56
* clayg bows down20:56
torgomaticdon't blame me ;)20:56
* peluse is not worthy20:56
pelusetorgomatic:  are you just checking the global POLICIES are actually doing something with swift.conf?20:57
torgomaticpeluse: just checking POLICIES20:57
pelusedamn, that's a really good idea...20:58
torgomaticyou should have seen the first couple ideas... ask clayg about them; they were pretty bad20:58
claygthat's torgomatic's way of saying the were my ideas20:59
pelusewell, I was about ready to code an API versionsing scheme so... :)20:59
torgomatichehe... please assign credit for good ideas to me, blame for bad ones to /dev/null ;)20:59
pelusehey, unrelated question:  I jsut had a jenkins failure on python26 but not python27 and it makes no sense why.  Never seen that before and I don't have python26 on my dev AIO.  Suggestions?21:00
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torgomaticgo add the deadsnakes PPA to your system (assuming Ubuntu here, since Cent/RHEL have 2.6) and install python 2.621:01
torgomatictox will pick up on it and you'll be able to test on both21:01
openstackgerritClay Gerrard proposed a change to openstack/python-swiftclient: add "info" as an alias to "capabilities"  https://review.openstack.org/7871021:02
pelusetorgomatic:  thanks,tried that and it hung so I assumed that PPA wasn't alive right now21:04
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openstackgerritFabien Boucher proposed a change to openstack/python-swiftclient: TCP port is appended two time in ClientException  https://review.openstack.org/7876121:05
pelusetorgomatic:  anything wrong with using this function to see if policies have been defined yet (python wise): POLICIES.__len__()21:12
torgomaticyou mean len(policies) ?21:12
torgomaticyeah, something like len(policies) == 1 and policies[0].index == 021:13
peluseyeah, or that.  wasn't sure why the __len__ method existed21:13
torgomaticjust to provide support for len() operator21:14
torgomaticoperator? function? builtin thingy? whatever it's called...21:14
peluseexcellent21:14
openstackgerritDavid Goetz proposed a change to openstack/swift: copy over swift.authorize stuff into subrequests  https://review.openstack.org/7876621:15
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gholttorgomatic: ^ that just "got" us but dfg fixed it up -- totally missed that as reviewers. :/21:21
torgomaticgholt: :|21:22
* torgomatic should really write some multi-user functional tests for this stuff21:22
gholtWell that particular one got us but only [ds]los through our cdn layer21:23
openstackgerritJames Carey  proposed a change to openstack/python-swiftclient: Remove ignore of H501 hacking check  https://review.openstack.org/7877221:25
gholtI suppose it would also affect anybody using more than one auth21:28
claygtorgomatic: hey if you're having trouble getting -e py26 running on your saio you could always try -> https://github.com/swiftstack/vagrant-swift-all-in-one21:30
clayg^ also a great way to try out the feature-ec branch since it has baked in support for setting up storage polices21:30
clayg*optional support21:31
pelusetorgomatic:  FYI you only need to check len(policies) and not the index as its not possible to have just one policy that's not index 0 (if you try to create one policy with idx 1 the policy code will create a policy 0 automatically thus giving you 2 policies)21:34
torgomaticpeluse: good to know, thanks21:41
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clayggood god why do we add the device and partition to the path during bufferedhttp http_connect?21:55
gholtSome decision we made probably out of convenience 5 years ago. ;)21:56
clayglol21:56
creihthah21:56
creihthas it been that long?21:56
creihtaww dang... getting close21:56
portante71156022:05
torgomaticThat's Numberwang!22:06
openstackgerritpaul luse proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add Storage Policy Support to ssync  https://review.openstack.org/6534722:08
peluseportante:  ^ will handle old-->new or new-->old now22:10
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