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| zaitcev | anticw_: I threw a fixed-up python-swiftclient to http://people.redhat.com/zaitcev/tmp/ for you, please let me know if it works. It's based on Thomas' https://review.openstack.org/33473 #18. | 00:05 |
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| peluse | zaitcev: hey thanks for the couple of reviews the other day - I'm making good progress on the patch that's giving me some exposure to the DB backends so will review yours when I'm done (few days maybe a bit more) | 00:06 |
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| zaitcev | peluse: sure | 00:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | A change was merged to openstack/swift: Add storage policy support for the Replicator https://review.openstack.org/52194 | 00:12 |
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| openstackgerrit | A change was merged to openstack/swift: Add Storage Policy Support for /Info https://review.openstack.org/69700 | 00:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Yongli He proposed a change to openstack/swift: Use assertEqual replace assertEquals for the functional test https://review.openstack.org/72835 | 05:19 |
| openstackgerrit | Lin Tan proposed a change to openstack/swift: Use assertEqual replace assertEquals for the probe test https://review.openstack.org/72592 | 05:28 |
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| zaitcev | aww meh | 05:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | John Dickinson proposed a change to openstack/swift: Added docs about the swift_source log field https://review.openstack.org/71163 | 06:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Yongli He proposed a change to openstack/swift: Use six.moves.urllib.parse need module six https://review.openstack.org/72884 | 09:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Yongli He proposed a change to openstack/swift: Use six.moves.urllib.parse instead of urlparse https://review.openstack.org/72885 | 09:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Eamonn O'Toole proposed a change to openstack/swift: Parallel object auditor https://review.openstack.org/59778 | 10:10 |
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| openstackgerrit | Alistair Coles proposed a change to openstack/swift: Remove duplicate doc entry for swob https://review.openstack.org/72922 | 11:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Tristan Cacqueray proposed a change to openstack/python-swiftclient: Port to python-requests https://review.openstack.org/69187 | 12:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Constantine Peresypkin proposed a change to openstack/swift: account to account copy implementation https://review.openstack.org/72157 | 12:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | Constantine Peresypkin proposed a change to openstack/swift: account to account copy implementation https://review.openstack.org/72157 | 14:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | Eamonn O'Toole proposed a change to openstack/swift: Parallel object auditor https://review.openstack.org/59778 | 16:31 |
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| openstackgerrit | Eamonn O'Toole proposed a change to openstack/swift: Parallel object auditor https://review.openstack.org/59778 | 17:06 |
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| notmyname | reminder. swift team meeting in 1.5 hours in #openstack-meeting | 17:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Vyacheslav Rafalskiy proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add support for reading from archives https://review.openstack.org/73008 | 17:35 |
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| notmyname | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift ->meeting agenda. probably a full meeting today, what with storage policies + python-swiftclient + other outstanding reviews | 18:09 |
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| torgomatic | it occurs to me that supporting If-Modified-Since for DLOs is a real pain | 18:38 |
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| openstackgerrit | Gil Vernik proposed a change to openstack/swift: On demand data migration for Swift https://review.openstack.org/64430 | 18:57 |
| notmyname | swift meeting in about 2 minute sin #openstack-meeting | 18:58 |
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| notmyname | meeting time | 19:01 |
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| erlon | notmyname: Hi | 19:01 |
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| erlon | notmyname: so, my first time in a 'IRC meeting', is there any protocol to follow? | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | erlon: nope, not really. I'll keep it moving along the agenda | 19:07 |
| erlon | notmyname: ok | 19:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Vyacheslav Rafalskiy proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add support for reading from archives https://review.openstack.org/73008 | 19:42 |
| notmyname | erlon: that was settled long ago. swift3 was moved out of swift, and openstack in general doesn't want 3rd party APIs in core repos | 19:43 |
| erlon | notmyname: hmm | 19:44 |
| portante | notmyname: so are diskfile backends considered 3rd party apis? | 19:46 |
| portante | folks, I had a hard time following the discussion in the swift meeting on backends | 19:47 |
| portante | I think we were just agreeing to not keep other diskfile backend implementations in the swift tree, such that a diskfile abstraction over s3 would live outside of the swift core code base, right? | 19:48 |
| notmyname | right | 19:48 |
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| portante | k thanks | 19:48 |
| portante | creiht: the next concern would be if I start back on reviews again could I not only affect the review queue but also impact how well the gate works? :) | 19:53 |
| portante | maybe I should just stay away for now! | 19:53 |
| portante | :) | 19:54 |
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| torgomatic | for diskfile backends, I'm not opposed (at least in principle) to including backends for things that are open-source, or at least have some kind of open-source implementation | 19:57 |
| notmyname | erlon: thanks for attending. that was a little more rapic back-and-forth than we normally have :-) | 19:57 |
| torgomatic | but the S3 backend is something I can't even test without typing in my credit card number :| | 19:57 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: eg an XFS-optimized abstraction | 19:58 |
| notmyname | or SSD | 19:58 |
| portante | torgomatic: but does testing them require other packages that we don't want to add dependencies on? | 19:58 |
| chmouel | I think other storage system like gluster make sense as well | 19:58 |
| torgomatic | notmyname: sure, or if there's a Kinetic disk simulator that's open source, something like that | 19:58 |
| * torgomatic doesn't mind adding a few test dependencies; it's the runtime ones that hurt you | 19:58 | |
| torgomatic | hypothetically speaking on the Kinetic thing; I don't know | 19:58 |
| * portante thinks that is reasonable, wonders how many thought discussions really go on that are not recorded here | 19:59 | |
| torgomatic | portante: we have logging in here now, FWIW | 19:59 |
| * portante :), "in here, where it counts" | 19:59 | |
| portante | oh | 19:59 |
| portante | no! | 19:59 |
| portante | really! | 19:59 |
| portante | ;) | 19:59 |
| portante | since like january late sometime, I believe. | 20:00 |
| notmyname | portante: now you have to watch what you say ;-) | 20:00 |
| portante | can't talk about spoons and forks? | 20:00 |
| portante | ;) | 20:00 |
| notmyname | sppons a knives. forks are right out | 20:00 |
| notmyname | and I can't type | 20:00 |
| notmyname | *spoons and knives | 20:00 |
| notmyname | I'll blame it on the BT keyboard. probably connection issues. ya that's it | 20:01 |
| torgomatic | I see you've played knifey-spoony before | 20:01 |
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| chmouel | notmyname: i have to go grab some food (and obv go watch the european football) do you want to talk about what you wanted to talk about, later on your tonight/my early morning? | 20:03 |
| notmyname | chmouel: oh yeah. I can talk now. | 20:03 |
| notmyname | chmouel: cschwede: so I was talking to the zeroVM guys. and they were _really_ hating on the pain than PBR was causing them (as one does) | 20:04 |
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| notmyname | so there were a couple of ideas thrown around on how to make pbr an opt-in system or to have a de-pbr-ify script or something | 20:04 |
| chmouel | notmyname: ok, just out of interest what are the issues with it? | 20:05 |
| cschwede | notmyname: hmm | 20:05 |
| notmyname | chmouel: cschwede: and the reason this comes up is because the mechanisms you're using for the cli spearation are currently taking advantage of a pbr feature | 20:05 |
| chmouel | I think if it's causing problems for reason we either need to fix it or remove it | 20:05 |
| chmouel | notmyname: i think that can be done directly in setup.py entry point thing | 20:05 |
| chmouel | without using pbr | 20:05 |
| notmyname | chmouel: ya, exactly | 20:05 |
| cschwede | chmouel: yepp | 20:06 |
| cschwede | notmyname: i can work on a patch for this | 20:06 |
| chmouel | do we want to give a chance to the pbr guys to actually fix this before ? | 20:06 |
| notmyname | chmouel: well "removing it" is kinda hard in the broader openstack sense. but we've already made it a build-time only dep. but having it as an opt-in thing for source installs only (so that packagers aren't the ones hurt) | 20:06 |
| cschwede | notmyname: but that would mean we have some stuff in setup.py and some in setup.cfg | 20:06 |
| creiht | notmyname: why do we need pbr again? :) | 20:07 |
| torgomatic | fwiw, setuptools can do console scripts too; PBR just overrides that because theirs is faster (or so they say) | 20:07 |
| * torgomatic has done no benchmarking of that whatsoever | 20:07 | |
| chmouel | i think our packager (zigo that do the official debianb packaging as well) was saying that he loves pbr | 20:08 |
| chmouel | not sure why either | 20:08 |
| notmyname | chmouel: cschwede: well, nothing actually been typed yet, but it's just a "thing" that may happen, and I want to remove future roadblocks that may be avoidable. IOW, if we have 2 ways to do it, let's do it the way that causes the least problems | 20:08 |
| torgomatic | so a hypothetical removal of pbr would still leave auto-generated binstubs in /usr/bin/swift-ring-builder or whatever, but the contents would be different | 20:08 |
| creiht | because the speed of setup.py matters | 20:08 |
| torgomatic | creiht: it's the speed of the autogenerated thing in /usr/bin that they're concerned about | 20:09 |
| torgomatic | I agree that it doesn't really matter though | 20:09 |
| creiht | heh | 20:09 |
| notmyname | creiht: "pbr is for standardizing the way repos are installed from source" <-- as near as I can remember the direct quote. which makes sense, if you're the -infra team needing to do stuff on 75 different repos, all from source | 20:09 |
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| notmyname | creiht: and that got translated into "everyone should use pbr" | 20:10 |
| creiht | setup.py <- the standard way to install python source since... | 20:10 |
| creiht | :) | 20:10 |
| notmyname | creiht: and so I really like the idea of making pbr opt-in | 20:10 |
| creiht | I still think pbr is the most rediculous library ever created | 20:10 |
| creiht | and we should dump it | 20:10 |
| notmyname | creiht: yes, but http://not.mn/gate_status.html is my answer to "why can't people just do the right thing" | 20:11 |
| cschwede | notmyname: so the idea is more like a tool script that translates stuff to make it work without setup.cfg ? | 20:11 |
| creiht | then make the stupid people use it | 20:11 |
| creiht | :) | 20:11 |
| creiht | I'm tried of the "punish everyone mentality because certain entities can't get their act together" | 20:11 |
| chmouel | I think it fill up a use case | 20:11 |
| chmouel | maybe swift don't have that use case | 20:11 |
| notmyname | cschwede: that was one idea talked about. but like I said, nothing's actually been typed in yet | 20:11 |
| cschwede | notmyname: ok, i will have a first look at this. let me know if there are any news | 20:12 |
| creiht | notmyname: so if we remove pbr today, what will break | 20:12 |
| notmyname | creiht: sure, but we (swift) and openstack certainly aren't the first to see this. that's why we have things like Agile Methodologies, etc. | 20:12 |
| notmyname | cschwede: ya, I'll keep you up to date. in the meantime, instead of doing pbr-specific stuff, if it's possible to take advantage of generic setup.py stuff that would be good | 20:14 |
| notmyname | cschwede: but don't code to something we don't have yet | 20:14 |
| notmyname | cschwede: if we simply have a patch later to move from pbr ways of doing bin scripts to something else, that's ok | 20:14 |
| cschwede | notmyname: ok, i'll check that | 20:14 |
| notmyname | cschwede: hmm... torgomatic is telling me that the console_scripts method isn't really a pbr-specific thing | 20:15 |
| notmyname | cschwede: so maybe there's no issue at all :-) | 20:15 |
| chmouel | no it's nbot | 20:15 |
| cschwede | notmyname: yes, we could use it directly in setup.py | 20:15 |
| cschwede | notmyname: just use entry_points in setup.py | 20:15 |
| notmyname | cschwede: right, but today setup.py is generated via pbr using setup.cfg | 20:16 |
| cschwede | notmyname: one sec, testing | 20:17 |
| creiht | how can we be trusted to correctly create a setup.cfg? | 20:17 |
| chmouel | creiht: the guys at infra runs a lot of repo | 20:18 |
| notmyname | creiht: clearly we need a reasonable way to generate a pbr config | 20:18 |
| creiht | It is amazing how the whole rest of the python community can create python libraries without having to use pbr | 20:18 |
| notmyname | creiht: you should start a new openstack project to do that | 20:18 |
| creiht | notmyname: so I'm serious, if we remove pbr, then what would break? | 20:19 |
| gholt | That beer is just not worth this much chatter. | 20:19 |
| chmouel | creiht: what about we ping the guys from infra to talk about this here? | 20:19 |
| cschwede | ok, we could use entry_points in setup.py even if we use pbr to generate the file | 20:19 |
| notmyname | gholt: someone buy you a beer to join the meeting today? ;-) | 20:19 |
| creiht | chmouel: that probably wouldn't help anything :) | 20:20 |
| cschwede | notmyname: so if it simplifies things, i can just submit a small patch for this | 20:20 |
| chmouel | creiht: :) | 20:20 |
| notmyname | cschwede: cool | 20:20 |
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| gholt | http://skeeboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/pbr_arch_logo-1.jpg | 20:21 |
| notmyname | ah yes | 20:21 |
| * chmouel is actually drinking a beer at the right moment | 20:21 | |
| notmyname | creiht: a full removal of pbr wouldn't be good for swift within the openstack community. which is why I like the idea that the zerovm guys proposed to have it as an opt-in thing available in swift (ie a partial removal) | 20:22 |
| torgomatic | to be fair, a PBR 24oz can is great for making beer-can chicken | 20:22 |
| notmyname | creiht: you are correct that there is nothing technical that pbr gives the swift repo today. I agree with that | 20:22 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: it's a big can to fill with other beer? | 20:22 |
| creiht | notmyname: and yet it has caused several issues for several groups | 20:23 |
| creiht | that's my main point | 20:24 |
| creiht | it causes pain, and solves no real problem | 20:24 |
| notmyname | well, "solves no real problem for swift" | 20:25 |
| creiht | it solves no real problem, and possibly only treats symptoms of other projects | 20:25 |
| creiht | and probably known to cause cancer in california | 20:25 |
| creiht | :) | 20:25 |
| creiht | anyways, it is just annoying that such a little library causes so many issues | 20:27 |
| gholt | I actually don't know much about pbr, other than it was annoying to me once for a week or so. http://docs.openstack.org/developer/pbr/ Reading that, just the Sphinx Autodoc seems kinda useful, but I already do that with a quick Sphinx conf.py change. ;) | 20:27 |
| gholt | Yeah, we should lay off notmyname. Poor guy. :D | 20:29 |
| openstackgerrit | Christian Schwede proposed a change to openstack/swift: Use setuptools directly to create console_scripts https://review.openstack.org/73037 | 20:29 |
| notmyname | creiht: as an openstack project, we must still support pbr. so we can't fully remove it from swift, but I like some of the thinks wkelly and rpedde were suggesting. eg have 2 setup.py scripts or have a script that generates one from the other. IOW, make the use of pbr an opt-in for those needing it, and get out of the way for everyone else building swift packages for deployment | 20:31 |
| gholt | I am curious how we can go about changing these openstack rules. Most the time they seem imposed by a few on the many. | 20:32 |
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| gholt | But then again, Monty got the most votes in the last election, so maybe the many actually do want what those few do. I'm probably the tiny minority. | 20:33 |
| notmyname | rpedde: beetlejuice beetlejuice beetlejuice | 20:33 |
| rpedde | notmyname: ... and just like that. | 20:34 |
| creiht | notmyname: says who? we don't use oslo either, should we be using that as well? | 20:34 |
| notmyname | gholt: these "rules" are essentially things that the vocal people in all the openstack IRC channels and on the mailing list agree to. so the answer is simply to stay on the ML and in every openstack channel and frame your position in such a way that you attract everyone to your viewpoint | 20:35 |
| creiht | for the good of openstack? | 20:35 |
| gholt | Eh, I guess I'll deal with pbr. | 20:35 |
| notmyname | gholt: lol | 20:35 |
| cschwede | notmyname: that patch should fix the issue for the zeroVM guys. But I think it would be good to know what these issues are so we might be able to fix them in pbr directly | 20:35 |
| notmyname | rpedde: I brought up some of the things you and wkelly were saying about pbr the other day. that's where all this started :-) | 20:36 |
| rpedde | oh man | 20:36 |
| cschwede | notmyname: rpedde: on IRC (ie here?) -> will have a look at the backlog | 20:37 |
| notmyname | rpedde: we'd all like to see less reliance on pbr, so the ideas of making it opt-in are good | 20:37 |
| rpedde | I don't have a good understanding of what benefits pbr brings to developers. I know that when rolling a package, I was surprised to see something like a dozen or so new package deps appear that seemed (from an operator perspective) to do nothing more than provide a version number for swift-recon. That seemed... excessive. | 20:39 |
| rpedde | cschwede: sadly, that conversation was on #zerovm | 20:40 |
| notmyname | rpedde: and I think most people in here are in agreement. I'm trying to balance that perspective against the rest of the openstack dev community (ie our relationship with -infra etc) | 20:43 |
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| notmyname | rpedde: cschwede is working on some good stuff to get the scripts tested, but in doing it, there is one setup.py or pbr thing he's using. and that's why we got into this today | 20:44 |
| notmyname | rpedde: so I'd love to see a partial dee-pbr-ify of swift, so that deployers don't need all those extra dependencies just to build a package and install swift | 20:44 |
| creiht | I read that as de-derp-ify | 20:47 |
| notmyname | portante: oh, yes. to confirm, torgomatic and I spend the afternoon with lpabon yesterday. it was great :-) | 20:47 |
| portante | great | 20:47 |
| portante | give me a sec | 20:47 |
| portante | or more | 20:47 |
| notmyname | portante: no worries. I still need to go get lunch | 20:48 |
| wkelly | looks like the pbr version stuff is moving to oslo.version for icehouse | 20:50 |
| creiht | yay, because we need a *whole* library to handle versioning | 20:50 |
| creiht | :) | 20:50 |
| notmyname | wkelly: hmm..interesting | 20:51 |
| wkelly | creiht: yeah, now you can get your wish of pulling in some oslo! :P | 20:51 |
| notmyname | or removing the last vesitges of why we need pbr ;-) | 20:51 |
| wkelly | it definitely gets rid of the runtime dep | 20:52 |
| notmyname | we already fixed that. if pbr is a run-time dep, it's a bug | 20:52 |
| wkelly | https://github.com/openstack/oslo.version | 20:52 |
| wkelly | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-August/012988.html | 20:52 |
| cschwede | notmyname: https://review.openstack.org/73037 reverses this (using only setuptools to create bin-scripts) | 20:52 |
| notmyname | cschwede: thanks. I wonder what's actually needed to change, if anything (based on what torgomatic was saying). actually, I'd think the actual change needed would be dependent on how a de-pbr happens | 20:54 |
| chmouel | wkelly: i think it's just a renaming | 20:54 |
| wkelly | chmouel: yeah, it makes sense to me, actually | 20:55 |
| chmouel | wkelly: and by the way hi ;) | 20:55 |
| wkelly | howdy! been a while | 20:56 |
| chmouel | :) | 20:56 |
| creiht | lol | 20:57 |
| creiht | https://twitter.com/PaulM/status/419170102483763200 | 20:57 |
| cschwede | notmyname: as far as i understood the problems occured with my patches using console_scripts from pbr? so there is no need to remove more pbr-related functions? | 20:57 |
| notmyname | cschwede: to me the issue is only ensuring that, should the ideas about pbr come to fruit, let's not bake something in that will cause extra code churn if we can help it | 20:59 |
| notmyname | cschwede: and if nothing needs to change in your patches, awesome. if so, let's see if that can be done from the start | 20:59 |
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| cschwede | notmyname: yepp, no need to change much. only a few lines and we can easily switch back to pbr-only once the issue is fixed there | 21:00 |
| notmyname | cschwede: well, one question outstanding is if your last patch actually needs to happen. I'm not clear on that. to creiht's twitter link, I'm certainly not an expert on python packaging, so I'm don't know yet what, if anything, needs to change | 21:01 |
| notmyname | all I know is that something might need to change | 21:01 |
| openstackgerrit | Vyacheslav Rafalskiy proposed a change to openstack/swift: Add support for reading from archives https://review.openstack.org/73008 | 21:02 |
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| notmyname | (but it does seem that I have a fondness for commas in sentences) | 21:02 |
| zaitcev | wait, what | 21:04 |
| zaitcev | this wasn't the other week, was it | 21:04 |
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| creiht | zaitcev: did you see the email where swift meetings are every week now? | 21:05 |
| zaitcev | creiht: I did now | 21:05 |
| creiht | hehe | 21:05 |
| cschwede | ok, i'm out for today, see you tomorrow! | 21:06 |
| zaitcev | Among other 467 e-mails that I didn't read in that folder was "[openstack-dev] Gamification and on-boarding ..." -- god help us all | 21:07 |
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| chmouel | notmyname: fyi: we have three talks in the pipe that talks about swift for the summit talk | 21:27 |
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| * notmyname is back from lunch | 21:50 | |
| notmyname | chmouel: cool! | 21:50 |
| notmyname | zaitcev: you have been awarded the "+1 Pdroductive" badge for filtering openstack emails | 21:51 |
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| notmyname | lunch was great, and now I want to shoot pbr in the head. here's what I propose: (1) make a non-pbr setup.py (2) make a setup.py.pbr that does what's needed for pbr (3) like with swob and memcache include a few paragraphs explaining why pbr isn't "default" (4) bonus points if you name it Intelligent Packaging Awareness (or IPA for short) | 21:54 |
| notmyname | creiht: rpedde: wkelly: gholt: torgomatic: ^ | 21:55 |
| gholt | Or redbo ;) | 21:55 |
| notmyname | yes :-) | 21:55 |
| creiht | lol | 21:57 |
| redbo | do you have any idea how much work it is to update the version number every month or two? | 21:59 |
| notmyname | ya, I think I'll be able to manage that ;-) | 22:00 |
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| zaitcev | IPA sometimes stands for Identity-Policy-Audit. | 22:04 |
| notmyname | also India Pale Ale | 22:04 |
| zaitcev | Oh | 22:04 |
| creiht | international phonetic alphabet | 22:04 |
| zaitcev | Not being a drinker, PBR connection didn't occur to me either. | 22:05 |
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| redbo | it's all lagunitas out there | 22:07 |
| clarkb | notmyname: out of curiousity how many of these pbr pain points are being reported as pbr bugs? | 22:13 |
| notmyname | clarkb: ya, that's why I think the step 3 above is actually the most important part | 22:13 |
| notmyname | clarkb: and I'm not sure they are bugs, per se. eg, you have to get a lot of dependencies for pbr on your build box, just to turn it all off to build a package | 22:14 |
| notmyname | clarkb: but I want to see the specific concerns laid out, too | 22:14 |
| clarkb | ya all of the pain may not be related to bugs but I feel like there is a lot of side alley complaining and fixing without talking to upstream | 22:15 |
| clarkb | which is actually the same project so please do talk :) | 22:15 |
| notmyname | clarkb: just as I never got an actual reason for pbr until we talked about it over lunch in AUS, I need to see the complaints beyone "because it does work for me" | 22:15 |
| notmyname | clarkb: so my understanding currently is that its adding a lot of complexity and requirements when it's not actually even used. if there are other concerns, I haven't untangled them yet | 22:16 |
| clarkb | gotcha | 22:16 |
| notmyname | clarkb: and so that's why I think it's untenable to completely remove pbr from swift, as I said earlier. however, making it something that is opt-in is a better solution, IMO | 22:17 |
| redbo | can I submit a bug to pbr that says "why do you always break things and not do anything helpful?" | 22:17 |
| clarkb | redbo: no that isn't helpful in itself :) | 22:18 |
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| notmyname | see, that's what's not too helpful | 22:18 |
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| clarkb | please do submit bugs that say "X broke and it hurts me beacuse Y" | 22:18 |
| notmyname | clarkb: and I'm glad you've seen the conversation here today. I'll definitely include you and others on the -infra team as stuff happens | 22:18 |
| redbo | where X = swift/swiftclient and Y = pbr | 22:19 |
| portante | 092201 | 22:21 |
| portante | whoops | 22:22 |
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| redbo | I kind of think pbr is a bug in swift. I tried submitting a bug report and patch, but it didn't make it. | 22:51 |
| redbo | or maybe it was just a patch | 22:52 |
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