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| slaweq | #startmeeting neutron_drivers | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Feb 14 14:00:10 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is slaweq. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers' | 14:00 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:00 |
| slaweq | hi | 14:00 |
| ralonsoh | hi | 14:00 |
| yamamoto | hi | 14:00 |
| TheJulia | o/ | 14:00 |
| stephen-ma | hi | 14:00 |
| slaweq | lets wait few more minutes for amotoki haleyb and mlavalle | 14:01 |
| haleyb | hi | 14:01 |
| slaweq | hi haleyb | 14:01 |
| slaweq | so we have already quorum and I think we can start | 14:01 |
| slaweq | as TheJulia is here, lets start not as usual :) | 14:02 |
| slaweq | #topic On Demand Agenda | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "On Demand Agenda (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 14:02 | |
| slaweq | TheJulia has added topic to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NeutronDrivers | 14:02 |
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| mlavalle | o/ | 14:03 |
| njohnston | hello TheJulia | 14:03 |
| amotoki | hi1 sorry for late | 14:04 |
| slaweq | hi mlavalle and amotoki | 14:04 |
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| TheJulia | So bottom line is we're wondering if the mac address update can be made non-admin or covered by a specific policy because ironic is making the service more multitenanty and usable for non-admins, but we pass credentials through for port actions and are trying to avoid pulling a second admin session as the ironic service user to just update the mac address | 14:04 |
| slaweq | just FYI, I started today with On demand agenda as TheJulia added some topic to it and I didn't want to hold her on the meeting for whole hour :) | 14:04 |
| TheJulia | slaweq: much appreciated,.... for I have hours of meetings ahead of me :) | 14:04 |
| njohnston | I wonder if this could be achieved with a policy.json modification defining a role tied to a specific service credential for Ironic | 14:05 |
| slaweq | njohnston: I think it can: https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/neutron/conf/policies/port.py#L192 | 14:05 |
| slaweq | it's defined there IIUC what is the need from Ironic | 14:05 |
| slaweq | and it seems for me that it can be done by admin or advsvc user | 14:06 |
| njohnston | slaweq: yes that is exactly what I was thinking about | 14:06 |
| amotoki | are we discussing mac address update by all non-admin users or users with specific roles? | 14:07 |
| TheJulia | non-admin users of baremetal, which has me thinking we're going to have to do the thing we don't want to do which is pull a separate client/session to directly update the port mac as a separate action | 14:08 |
| njohnston | the thing is, Neutron has no way of distinguishing between the Ironic use case and the other use cases where non-admin access to this would be a bad idea | 14:08 |
| amotoki | we prepared the advsvc role for such purpose. If it works it would be great. | 14:09 |
| TheJulia | Yeah, I suspect we could just have ironic learn how to do it separately, which would prevent potential security issues. I guess well need to look at that. Anyway thanks everyone! | 14:10 |
| amotoki | one thing to note is that updating mac address should be limited to a private network. | 14:11 |
| amotoki | I mean "self-service network". | 14:11 |
| njohnston | Are there some baremetal scenarios where it would not be a good idea to allow mac address updating? | 14:11 |
| amotoki | it should not be allowed in a shared network. | 14:12 |
| amotoki | in other words, the operation should be limited to a network owner IMHO. | 14:12 |
| TheJulia | njohnston: none, we must be able to update the mac address for pxe booting and addressing of physical ports. | 14:12 |
| TheJulia | in that case the ironic service account needs to perform the port update action for just the mac address | 14:14 |
| TheJulia | since we know it and manage it | 14:15 |
| njohnston | I am wondering if we could permit port update for all in policy.json and then later in the logic require specific privileges unless it's a baremetal port. | 14:16 |
| njohnston | But I don't know if there are baremetal-but-not-Ironic scenarios that could bite us with that | 14:17 |
| slaweq | njohnston: I'm not sure if we should do such hard coded rules for some specific kinds of resources | 14:17 |
| TheJulia | that is only informed via the ?binding profile? which I think is later on, also since users can request vifs on user created networks and ironic will request it be attached to that network | 14:17 |
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| njohnston | Having a separate admin session has the virtue of simplicity, other methods for doing it get complex quickly it seems to me | 14:18 |
| TheJulia | agreed | 14:18 |
| TheJulia | Thanks, I'll let the contributor working on the multitenancy feature set know! | 14:18 |
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| slaweq | ok, so I think we are good with Your topic TheJulia, right? You will try to use advsvc role for this action. | 14:19 |
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| TheJulia | yup, thanks | 14:20 |
| slaweq | thx TheJulia :) | 14:21 |
| slaweq | so now we can move to our regular topic | 14:21 |
| slaweq | #topic RFEs | 14:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "RFEs (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 14:21 | |
| slaweq | we have 2 RFEs for today | 14:21 |
| slaweq | first one: | 14:21 |
| slaweq | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1860521 | 14:21 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1860521 in neutron "L2 pop notifications are not reliable" [Undecided,New] | 14:21 |
| slaweq | I remember from when I was working in OVH that we had similar problems with L2pop mechanism and we added something like periodic sync of tunnels config on host | 14:24 |
| njohnston | I am not sure what the impact to the message bus would be to change from fanout/cast to RPC calls | 14:25 |
| slaweq | njohnston: to the message bus not much but for neutron-rpc workers which will send such messages and wait for reply, impact will be at least "noticeable" IMO | 14:27 |
| njohnston | slaweq: Yeah, I was worried more about the RPC workers | 14:27 |
| slaweq | njohnston: ahh, ok :) | 14:28 |
| mlavalle | it's a matter of whether the mesh of tunnels works vs the cost | 14:28 |
| njohnston | Does OVN use l2pop? IIRC it doesn't but I haven't looked in that part of the code in a while. | 14:28 |
| slaweq | njohnston: nope | 14:29 |
| amotoki | I am not sure right now which is better to switch it to RPC calls or to sync info periodically. | 14:29 |
| amotoki | if the number of nodes to be informed is small, it makes sense to switch it to RPC calls. | 14:29 |
| mlavalle | but I am sure the problem is more acute in large deployments | 14:30 |
| njohnston | There are costs and benefits each way - if the RPC call idea adds overhead then it could make the situation in large deployments worse. With the periodic sync you have a period of time where things might not work correctly, before the next sync. | 14:31 |
| mlavalle | yeap | 14:31 |
| mlavalle | it's always a trade off | 14:31 |
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| njohnston | I personally favor the periodic sync as being in keeping with our "eventually consistent" way of doing things, but I have a bias towards large deployment thinking. | 14:31 |
| slaweq | actually looking at the code it will not be possible to switch always to call() from cast() | 14:32 |
| mlavalle | but if the mesh of tunnels gets to a point where it doesn't work, then it's time to consider the trade offs | 14:32 |
| slaweq | https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/neutron/plugins/ml2/drivers/l2pop/rpc.py | 14:32 |
| slaweq | in some cases it uses fanout=True and then it can't call() be used | 14:32 |
| ralonsoh | slaweq, why? | 14:33 |
| ralonsoh | actually one problem we have with the MQ is that some calls are blocking | 14:33 |
| slaweq | ralonsoh: https://docs.openstack.org/oslo.messaging/latest/reference/rpcclient.html#oslo_messaging.RPCClient.call | 14:34 |
| slaweq | call() waits for return value so You can't send it to many hosts and wait for many replies | 14:35 |
| slaweq | that's at least how I understand it | 14:35 |
| ralonsoh | I know, but why do we need to use call instead of cast? | 14:35 |
| ralonsoh | if the MQ is down, the server will stop working | 14:35 |
| slaweq | ralonsoh: this was "Option 2" in the RFE | 14:35 |
| ralonsoh | (maybe this is out of topic, sorry) | 14:36 |
| amotoki | yeah, switching cast() into call() is not straight-forward. in case of fanout=True, we need to convert it into multiple call() and also need to check the status of individual call(). | 14:36 |
| amotoki | using call() allows us to check the result | 14:36 |
| amotoki | but perhaps it will bring another scaling issue in this case. | 14:36 |
| stephen-ma | slaweq: when can an RFE can be brought up for discussion? | 14:36 |
| slaweq | amotoki: yes, but IMO that's not good idea as L2pop was IMO designed to address some scale problems and such change would make it totally not scallable | 14:37 |
| amotoki | slaweq: exactly | 14:37 |
| amotoki | I just tried to explain what would happen. | 14:37 |
| slaweq | stephen-ma: are You asking about https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1861529 ? If yes, I keep it for the end of the meeting :) | 14:37 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1861529 in neutron "[RFE] A port's network should be changable" [Wishlist,New] | 14:37 |
| stephen-ma | yes that's the RFE | 14:38 |
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| slaweq | amotoki: ralonsoh so IMO to address issue described by Oleg, we should only consider "option 1 - periodic sync mechanism" | 14:38 |
| amotoki | slaweq: agree. I personally prefer to the periodic sync. | 14:38 |
| ralonsoh | (I don't, that's why we have the MQ) | 14:39 |
| ralonsoh | but the problem is why the MQ is not reliable | 14:39 |
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| ralonsoh | anyway, if making this update periodic can solve this problem, I'm ok | 14:39 |
| slaweq | ralonsoh: problem here is that with cast() method neutron-server don't know if agent configured everything fine | 14:40 |
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| ralonsoh | I will comment in the bug | 14:41 |
| ralonsoh | but that should not be a server problem | 14:41 |
| ralonsoh | if agent is down, server should keep working | 14:41 |
| amotoki | MQ is durable in some cases, but from my operator experience it is not easy to ensure MQ msgs are reliable, so it is nice if neutron (MQ users) provides some mechanism for reliability. | 14:41 |
| ralonsoh | if the agent received the config and everything went fine, ok | 14:42 |
| ralonsoh | if not, the agent should communicate to the server informing about the error | 14:42 |
| njohnston | The other alternative, just to play devil's advocate, is to build the reliability higher up in the stack | 14:42 |
| mlavalle | which is synch of sorts, right? | 14:42 |
| ralonsoh | njohnston, the reliability is on the services: agent, server, etc | 14:43 |
| njohnston | ralonsoh: If the MQ never sent the message tot he agent then the agent has no idea it has something to complain about | 14:43 |
| ralonsoh | the agent should be smart enough to send a warning message to the server | 14:43 |
| ralonsoh | njohnston, I know | 14:43 |
| ralonsoh | and if the MQ does not work, then will have a stopped Neutron server | 14:43 |
| slaweq | ralonsoh: exactly how njohnston said, in case of cast() You will not have e.g. message timeout error on server side | 14:43 |
| njohnston | ralonsoh: Instead of depending on the call() method the agent sends a message saying "I processed this update", and neutron server counts these acks. | 14:44 |
| ralonsoh | (something very common in some bugs) | 14:44 |
| njohnston | Similarly to how you design a reliable service on top of UDP, you don't have the transmission mechanism ensure reliability, you build it into the application layer | 14:44 |
| ralonsoh | exactly: this should be like a UDP call, and the client should inform..... | 14:44 |
| ralonsoh | exactly! | 14:45 |
| ralonsoh | I was writing the same | 14:45 |
| mlavalle | and all of his is a synch mechanism, isn't it? | 14:45 |
| ralonsoh | goal: do NOT block the server | 14:45 |
| njohnston | that requires neutron to track what agent(s) should respond to this kind of request and keep an account for responses received | 14:45 |
| ralonsoh | yes | 14:45 |
| ralonsoh | in a async way | 14:46 |
| njohnston | mlavalle: the value here is that the approach is not periodic or timer-based | 14:46 |
| mlavalle | sure | 14:46 |
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| mlavalle | whenever to asynch entities need to cooperate (server and agent for example) you need a way to fins synchronization points, periodic or otherwise | 14:47 |
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| mlavalle | nature of distributed systems | 14:48 |
| mlavalle | I'd say the idea has merit and we should explore it further with a spce | 14:48 |
| mlavalle | *spec | 14:48 |
| ralonsoh | agree | 14:49 |
| njohnston | My main question: the work of syncing to the database for FDB updates and then keeping an account of responses received, is it worth the effort? Compared to the simpler periodic sync mechanism. | 14:49 |
| ralonsoh | IMO, you don't need to track the responses | 14:50 |
| slaweq | ok, so to sumup what we discussed so far: we should continue discussion in the sync (periodic or not) mechanism in the spec, we don't want to switch from cast() to call(), right? | 14:50 |
| ralonsoh | you'll have error responses or nothing | 14:50 |
| njohnston | If you don't track the responses then you can't reissue the update when a response is not received | 14:50 |
| ralonsoh | 1) if the agent is not working, the server will notice that, period checks | 14:50 |
| ralonsoh | 2) if the agent message didn't work, the agent will reply with an error | 14:51 |
| ralonsoh | 3) if the MQ is unreliable.... well, this IS a problem | 14:51 |
| ralonsoh | but not Neutron's problem | 14:51 |
| njohnston | But addressing 3 is the point of the RFE, it is Neutron's problem | 14:52 |
| njohnston | If AMQP drops the message then neither server nor client will know there was an error | 14:52 |
| njohnston | drops a casted message to be specific | 14:52 |
| slaweq | I agree with njohnston here - we should do as much as we can to address such case on our side | 14:52 |
| mlavalle | it is Neutron's problem in the sense that is has at least cope with it | 14:52 |
| ralonsoh | ok | 14:52 |
| slaweq | so, I will sum up this discussion in RFE and ask for spec to continue discussion there, right? | 14:55 |
| mlavalle | slaweq: I would point out in the RFE that in light of today's discussion, we lean towards some sort of synch problem | 14:55 |
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| mlavalle | and that we would like to explore it in a spec | 14:55 |
| slaweq | mlavalle: sure | 14:55 |
| njohnston | +1 | 14:56 |
| amotoki | +1 | 14:56 |
| ralonsoh | +1 | 14:56 |
| mlavalle | I meant synch mechanism | 14:56 |
| slaweq | ok, thx for discussion about this RFE - it was the good one today :) | 14:56 |
| slaweq | as we are almost on top of the hour, I don't want to start discussion about next rfe | 14:57 |
| slaweq | but I want to ask all of You to check https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1861529 | 14:58 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1861529 in neutron "[RFE] A port's network should be changable" [Wishlist,New] | 14:58 |
| ralonsoh | ok | 14:58 |
| slaweq | and that's all for today from me | 14:58 |
| slaweq | thx for attending | 14:58 |
| slaweq | and have a great weekend | 14:58 |
| slaweq | o/ | 14:58 |
| amotoki | o/ | 14:58 |
| mlavalle | o/ | 14:58 |
| ralonsoh | bye | 14:58 |
| slaweq | #endmeeting | 14:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 14:58 | |
| stephen-ma | ok | 14:58 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Feb 14 14:58:46 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2020/neutron_drivers.2020-02-14-14.00.html | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2020/neutron_drivers.2020-02-14-14.00.txt | 14:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2020/neutron_drivers.2020-02-14-14.00.log.html | 14:58 |
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