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| * mriedem looks at the clock | 14:00 | |
| efried | #startmeeting nova | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 16 14:00:30 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is efried. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova' | 14:00 |
| cdent | o/ | 14:00 |
| edleafe | \o | 14:00 |
| mriedem | HI | 14:00 |
| artom | ~o~ | 14:00 |
| takashin | o/ | 14:00 |
| artom | (my name is) | 14:00 |
| mriedem | slim shady | 14:00 |
| artom | *scratching noises* | 14:01 |
| efried | wow | 14:01 |
| * johnthetubaguy lurks until he has to run to a doctors appointment | 14:01 | |
| artom | Cell service in the subway ftw | 14:01 |
| efried | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 14:02 |
| efried | #topic Last meeting | 14:02 |
| efried | #link Minutes from last meeting: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2019/nova.2019-05-09-21.01.html | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Last meeting (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:02 | |
| efried | A few items from last time to follow up on... | 14:02 |
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| efried | fup efried action to track down owner of review status page http://status.openstack.org/reviews/#nova | 14:02 |
| efried | I have gotten as far as finding out where the source is (openstack/reviewday project) but haven't dug in yet. | 14:02 |
| mriedem | wow | 14:03 |
| mriedem | Page refreshed at 2019-05-09 06:38:29 UTC 466 active reviews | 14:03 |
| efried | Anyone wants to hack around, knock yourself out. Lemme know what you find. | 14:03 |
| mriedem | might ping infra (fungi) to see if it's busted | 14:03 |
| efried | why, is that wrong? | 14:03 |
| mriedem | he's been pinged | 14:03 |
| efried | oh, yeah, looks like there's a bit over 700 actually open | 14:04 |
| cdent | what does that page even mean? | 14:04 |
| fungi | yeah, when our current fires are extinguished hopefully someone can check on status.o.o and find out if there's any error from the cron or whatever that regenerates that content | 14:04 |
| efried | that's what we'd like to figure out. | 14:05 |
| efried | ^ to cdent | 14:05 |
| mriedem | cdent: we're not sure how the scoring is calculated | 14:05 |
| efried | ...and figure out how we can use it. | 14:05 |
| mriedem | but otherwise it's just a place with all the open nova reviews, sortable | 14:05 |
| efried | sortable by some criteria we don't understand. | 14:05 |
| mriedem | i think part of the heat factor is age | 14:05 |
| fungi | you may have to dig into the reviewstats source code, but i think the scoring has to do with launchpad bug priority | 14:05 |
| fungi | and age | 14:05 |
| mriedem | and maybe lp heat value, idk | 14:06 |
| mriedem | but that would make sense | 14:06 |
| efried | #link cycle themes are still up for review https://review.opendev.org/657171 | 14:06 |
| efried | This has a couple +2s and a number of +1s. I'm tempted to say I'll merge it in a week if no objections from this point. | 14:06 |
| efried | does that work? | 14:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 doing the merge | 14:07 |
| efried | ight | 14:07 |
| mriedem | i'll take a look after this meeting | 14:08 |
| efried | thanks. | 14:08 |
| efried | and last fup, couple of patches were highlighted for review last week. | 14:08 |
| efried | https://review.opendev.org/#/c/643023/ | 14:08 |
| efried | https://review.opendev.org/#/c/643024/ | 14:08 |
| artom | Got dragged away for downstream bugfixes/backports, didn't get a chance to look :( | 14:08 |
| efried | It looked like sean-k-mooney was into them as well, but was on vacation last week; I'll poke. | 14:08 |
| efried | done | 14:09 |
| efried | #topic Release News | 14:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Release News (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:09 | |
| efried | anything? | 14:10 |
| efried | #topic Bugs (stuck/critical) | 14:10 |
| efried | No Critical bugs | 14:10 |
| efried | #link 78 new untriaged bugs (up 2 since the last meeting): https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=New | 14:10 |
| efried | #link 10 untagged untriaged bugs (no change since the last meeting): https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=-*&field.status%3Alist=NEW | 14:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (stuck/critical) (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:10 | |
| efried | From last week, bug 1827083 | 14:11 |
| openstack | bug 1827083 in OpenStack-Gate "ERROR: Could not install packages due to an EnvironmentError: HTTPSConnectionPool(host='git.openstack.org', port=443): Max retries exceeded with url: /cgit/openstack/requirements/plain/upper-constraints.txt (Caused by NewConnectionError('<pip._vendor.urllib3.connection.VerifiedHTTPSConnection object at 0x7febbf6ae630>: Failed to establish a new connection: [Errno -3] Temporary failure in name resolution',)) in vexxhost-sjc1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1827083 | 14:11 |
| efried | looks like this has at least been worked around by making vexxhost not use ipv6 | 14:11 |
| efried | and then some conditional ipv6ing | 14:11 |
| efried | but the bug isn't closed. mriedem, whassa deal, yo? | 14:11 |
| mriedem | yes http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/#1827083 | 14:11 |
| mriedem | mnaser is in china | 14:12 |
| mriedem | so the workaround is forced ipv4 | 14:12 |
| mriedem | next steps are up to infra, not me | 14:12 |
| mnaser | hi | 14:12 |
| efried | flatline since those fixes merged, so that's good. | 14:12 |
| efried | still open because more permanent solution pending? | 14:12 |
| mriedem | well we want ipv6 testing in the gate per one of the release goals i believe, | 14:12 |
| mriedem | and that region was all ipv6 until this week i think | 14:13 |
| mnaser | ah yes, that. IPv6 works till it doesn’t and I don’t know why only that hits it. Anyways, I’ll try to dig deeper soon with Indra hopefully. | 14:13 |
| mnaser | Infra** | 14:13 |
| mriedem | so yeah i'm sure people (again, infra) will be working on it | 14:13 |
| efried | cool. Meantime mitigated, so \o/ | 14:13 |
| mriedem | yes thank clarkb | 14:13 |
| artom | But... the underlying setup can be done with IPv4 even if we then test IPv6 in the tenant networks, no? | 14:13 |
| mriedem | yes, we've had ipv6 testing in the gate with tempest for a long time | 14:14 |
| clarkb | ya the switch here was to use external dns via ipv4 instead of ipv6 | 14:15 |
| clarkb | the tests themselves can still.use ipv6 internally | 14:15 |
| clarkb | it was external connectivity we struggled with | 14:15 |
| artom | Yeah, we're still testing IPv6 correctly | 14:15 |
| efried | otherwise gate looks pretty healthy (keinehorah, ptoo-ptoo-ptoo) | 14:16 |
| efried | 3rd party CI | 14:16 |
| efried | #link 3rd party CI status http://ciwatch.mmedvede.net/project?project=nova&time=7+days | 14:16 |
| efried | ironic-tempest-ipa-wholedisk-bios-agent_ipmitool-tinyipa looks bad - anyone know anything about this? | 14:16 |
| mriedem | dtantsur was asking about some ironic job n-cpu logs the other day, but for a stable branch (rocky) i think | 14:17 |
| mriedem | not sure if that would be related | 14:17 |
| mriedem | http://logs.openstack.org/32/634832/29/check/ironic-tempest-ipa-wholedisk-bios-agent_ipmitool-tinyipa/fba9197/controller/logs/devstacklog.txt.gz#_2019-05-16_03_28_21_590 | 14:17 |
| mriedem | looks like the job is f'ed | 14:18 |
| efried | also this http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-May/006314.html | 14:18 |
| efried | not sure if that's related | 14:18 |
| mriedem | die 1865 'Timed out waiting for Nova to track 1 nodes' | 14:18 |
| efried | when did that job stop voting? | 14:18 |
| mriedem | looks like they are waiting for some CUSTOM_GOLD trait to show up | 14:18 |
| mriedem | i don't think it ever was voting | 14:18 |
| efried | hmph, okay. | 14:18 |
| mriedem | it used to timeout all the time (years ago) | 14:18 |
| mriedem | TheJulia: ^ known issue? | 14:19 |
| mriedem | ++ /opt/stack/ironic/devstack/lib/ironic:wait_for_nova_resources:1865 : die 1865 'Timed out waiting for Nova to track 1 nodes' | 14:19 |
| mriedem | anyway we can sort that out and track it outside of the meeting | 14:19 |
| efried | cool | 14:19 |
| efried | Anything else on bugs, gate, CI, etc? | 14:20 |
| cdent | I've raised a flag internally (again) on the lack of health from vmware ci. there was some enthusiam last week about "move everything to zuul v3" but that's dependent on locating some "lost" hardware | 14:20 |
| mriedem | starlingx has reported what is for them a critical bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1829062 | 14:20 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1829062 in StarlingX "nova placement api non-responsive due to eventlet error" [Critical,In progress] - Assigned to Gerry Kopec (gerry-kopec) | 14:20 |
| mriedem | related to the eventlet wsgi stuff | 14:20 |
| mriedem | it sounds like the ultimate fix is melwitt's series to drop eventlet usage from the api | 14:21 |
| efried | who's qualified to deep-review ^ ? | 14:21 |
| mriedem | https://review.opendev.org/#/q/topic:cell-scatter-gather-futurist+(status:open+OR+status:merged) | 14:21 |
| efried | mdbooth? | 14:21 |
| mriedem | i haven't been paying much attention to it, but i know mdbooth has, | 14:21 |
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| cdent | I continue to think (as I said on the review) that we should only scatter gather when there are >2 cells | 14:21 |
| mriedem | it sounds like the open nagging issue is not knowing if a thread is hung or something? | 14:21 |
| cdent | that's an aspect yes, but mdbooth thinks that shouldn't be a "real" problem | 14:22 |
| mriedem | there was some talk about down cells behavior with that change and i dropped my testing guide patch for down cells if people want to test that out with melwitt's patches applied | 14:22 |
| sean-k-mooney | mriedem: the concern was if you had several tread hang waiting for a respoce then you could exaust the thread pool | 14:22 |
| mriedem | but we don't actually know if we have a case for hung threads right? | 14:23 |
| mriedem | this is just conjecture? | 14:23 |
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| sean-k-mooney | yes more or less | 14:23 |
| mriedem | we can find out if a down cell breaks this by testing it with devstack, it's pretty easy | 14:23 |
| cdent | aye | 14:23 |
| sean-k-mooney | i mean it could happen | 14:23 |
| mriedem | anything can happen... | 14:23 |
| mriedem | so we know eventlet + wsgi is bad | 14:23 |
| mriedem | we're not sure what can happen with mel's changes, but we can get more info by testing it with a down cell | 14:24 |
| sean-k-mooney | it was raised by gibi and dan on the review which is why we are giving it credence | 14:24 |
| mriedem | ok gibi is out for a bit | 14:24 |
| mriedem | i'm not sure what dansmith's current thoughts are on it | 14:24 |
| * dansmith is on a call | 14:24 | |
| mriedem | sounds like next step is testing her patches with down cells? | 14:24 |
| sean-k-mooney | for a donw cell it should not be an issue | 14:24 |
| dansmith | it needs to be multiple down cells with lots of api traffic, | 14:25 |
| sean-k-mooney | the edgecase was if the requst hang after the connection to the cell has started | 14:25 |
| dansmith | but I also kinda don't see the point of doing this tbh, and I thought there were a couple things we could do to get the monkey patching in order to fix the acute problem | 14:25 |
| dansmith | I'm super wary of having two threading models in code that doesn't have a strong separation... asking for trouble, IMHO, | 14:25 |
| dansmith | but I don't really have time to dig deep on this | 14:26 |
| sean-k-mooney | well the issue is the api was not monkey patched before when runing under wsgi and wsgi + eventlest has issues | 14:26 |
| mriedem | ok i don't know what the alternatives are that dan's referring to, like i said i'm not heavily involved in this one | 14:26 |
| mriedem | we could punt and only scatter/gather if there are >2 cells, but that just punts the problem to someone like cern to hit it when they get to stein | 14:27 |
| mriedem | so i'm not in love with that option personally | 14:27 |
| mriedem | anyway i guess we can move on | 14:28 |
| mriedem | seems like by now people would have figured out problems with wsgi and multi-threading in python? | 14:28 |
| * mriedem re-writes nova-api in EJBs! | 14:28 | |
| artom | Well, eventlet isn't real multithreading... | 14:28 |
| cdent | yes, several ideas are discussed on the review, but nothing has congealed out of the goo | 14:28 |
| mriedem | artom: i mean without eventlet | 14:28 |
| edleafe | EJB does sound promising! | 14:28 |
| mriedem | if there are dangers with wsgi + python std lib concurrency stuff | 14:29 |
| sean-k-mooney | by the way the work around for people untill we fix this is to go back to running the api via the console scipt command | 14:29 |
| efried | edleafe is going to rewrite nova with graph databases | 14:29 |
| artom | It'd immediately solve NUMA in placement ;) | 14:29 |
| edleafe | efried: s/graph/distributed | 14:29 |
| mriedem | i was also going to kill the nova-api eventlet stuff about a year ago... | 14:29 |
| sean-k-mooney | that is a performacne hit but it works | 14:29 |
| mriedem | good thing i got busy | 14:29 |
| efried | moving on. | 14:29 |
| efried | #topic Reminders | 14:29 |
| efried | Summit, Forum, and PTG happened | 14:29 |
| efried | #link PTG summary emails (searching for ".*[nova].*[ptg] Summary" will get most of them) http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-May/ | 14:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reminders (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:29 | |
| efried | Any other reminders? | 14:30 |
| efried | #topic Stable branch status | 14:31 |
| efried | #link Stein regressions: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-April/005637.html | 14:31 |
| efried | No change since last week (one bug still open, bug 1824435, no great solution yet) | 14:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stable branch status (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:31 | |
| openstack | bug 1824435 in OpenStack Compute (nova) stein "fill_virtual_interface_list migration fails on second attempt" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1824435 | 14:31 |
| efried | #link stable/stein: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+(project:openstack/os-vif+OR+project:openstack/python-novaclient+OR+project:openstack/nova)+branch:stable/stein | 14:31 |
| efried | #link stable/rocky: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+(project:openstack/os-vif+OR+project:openstack/python-novaclient+OR+project:openstack/nova)+branch:stable/rocky | 14:31 |
| efried | #link stable/queens: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+(project:openstack/os-vif+OR+project:openstack/python-novaclient+OR+project:openstack/nova)+branch:stable/queens | 14:31 |
| efried | #link stable/pike: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+(project:openstack/os-vif+OR+project:openstack/python-novaclient+OR+project:openstack/nova)+branch:stable/pike | 14:31 |
| efried | There was a question from cdent a few days ago about backporting something to ocata. It sounded like it was de-confusing a message? | 14:31 |
| cdent | mriedem and I worked out it wasn't worth doing | 14:32 |
| efried | okay, cool. | 14:32 |
| cdent | as it wouldn't be a backport as pike changed it | 14:32 |
| cdent | s/it/it alot/ | 14:32 |
| efried | so it would be an ocata-only change, and noncritical, so punt? | 14:32 |
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| efried | Anything else stable-related? | 14:33 |
| cdent | (yes on the punt) | 14:33 |
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| efried | #topic Sub/related team Highlights | 14:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Sub/related team Highlights (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:34 | |
| efried | Placement | 14:34 |
| efried | cdent was traveling, but we had a brief meeting on Monday without him | 14:34 |
| efried | #link placement meeting log http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/placement/2019/placement.2019-05-13-14.00.log.html | 14:34 |
| efried | The main nova-related things were... | 14:34 |
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| efried | #link WIP spec for nested magic https://review.opendev.org/#/c/658510/ | 14:34 |
| efried | #link spec for rg/rp mapping https://review.opendev.org/#/c/657582/ | 14:34 |
| efried | It would be nice if nova folks could have a look at those ^ and make sure they're going to satisfy nova use cases | 14:34 |
| * artom adds the nested magic one to this queue | 14:35 | |
| efried | also look with an eye for how we could simplify ^ and still meet the use cases :) (especially the nested magic one) | 14:35 |
| artom | Will get to it when all the downstream fires have been put out. So, next year :P | 14:35 |
| efried | artom: it's a scintillating read, I promise you. | 14:36 |
| efried | cdent: anything else placement-that-affects-nova you want to go over? | 14:36 |
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| cdent | no sir | 14:36 |
| efried | anyone else? | 14:36 |
| efried | API (gmann) | 14:36 |
| efried | no notes in the agenda, no gmann in the channel. Anyone have anything here? | 14:36 |
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| efried | #topic Stuck Reviews | 14:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stuck Reviews (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:38 | |
| efried | nothing on the agenda. Anyone? | 14:38 |
| efried | #topic Review status page | 14:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review status page (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:38 | |
| *** yamamoto has quit IRC | 14:39 | |
| efried | we talked about this above. fup with infra to make sure it's working. fup hacking the repo to see wtf it's doing. fup brainstorm on whether/how to use it to make the world a better place. | 14:39 |
| efried | #topic Open discussion | 14:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: nova)" | 14:39 | |
| efried | in the spirit of being good little community citizens, I have started | 14:39 |
| efried | #link WIP TC Vision Reflection https://review.opendev.org/658932 | 14:39 |
| efried | #help with this, please. | 14:39 |
| efried | Any other opens? | 14:40 |
| jangutter | Sorry for asking a question that might already have been answered: has anyone managed to dig up a mirror to the train ptg etherpad somewhere? | 14:40 |
| efried | jangutter: Yeah, sean-k-mooney sent a copy (undecorated, unfortunately) to the ML | 14:41 |
| efried | #link nova train ptg etherpad backup http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-May/006243.html | 14:41 |
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| jangutter | efried: thanks! | 14:41 |
| aspiers | #link alternative etherpad backup from infra team http://paste.openstack.org/show/751315/ | 14:41 |
| efried | thanks aspiers. | 14:42 |
| efried | unfortunately, same lack of formatting, but content is there. | 14:42 |
| efried | we had lost the authorship colors in the various transitions anyway, so the main loss is just the strikethroughs | 14:43 |
| efried | and we had struck through everything pretty much anyway, so... | 14:43 |
| efried | Okay, anything else before we wrap? | 14:43 |
| artom | Is there going to be an open discussion thing? | 14:43 |
| cdent | you're in it | 14:43 |
| efried | artom: your mic | 14:43 |
| artom | Wanted to quickly ask about stable branch same company approvals - for instance, who would be able to +W https://review.opendev.org/#/c/657125/ | 14:43 |
| efried | o right | 14:44 |
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| efried | my knee-jerk reaction is that same-company approvals don't really apply to backports. | 14:44 |
| artom | (Are we writing down the master branch policy anywhere? Might be good to add the stable branch policy as well) | 14:44 |
| efried | stable decisions are based on suitability for backporting; the technical decisions were already made on the master patch. | 14:44 |
| sean-k-mooney | artom: we decided to not write it down | 14:45 |
| efried | (except for the long email thread that's written down) | 14:45 |
| artom | sean-k-mooney, aha, keep it in the cloud ;) | 14:45 |
| mriedem | as a stable core i would be able to +2 it, if i don't -1 it first | 14:45 |
| efried | artom: in case you missed it: | 14:45 |
| efried | #link same-company approvals ML thread http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-May/thread.html#5865 | 14:45 |
| artom | mriedem, right, but you're not RH | 14:45 |
| sean-k-mooney | mriedem: :) | 14:45 |
| artom | I was more wondering if melwitt, for example, could come along and +W it | 14:46 |
| mriedem | she should not IMO | 14:46 |
| artom | efried, yeah, I followed that | 14:46 |
| mriedem | especially given this change is arguably a feature | 14:46 |
| sean-k-mooney | artom: am she could if a non redhater was the first +2 | 14:46 |
| artom | So stable is also 2 +2s? | 14:46 |
| mriedem | not necessarily | 14:46 |
| efried | assume we count the author of the master patch, not the proposer of the backport, as the author of record for purposes of same-company approval decisions? | 14:47 |
| mriedem | backport from a stable core is generally considered a proxy +2 if it's a clean backport | 14:47 |
| mriedem | efried: the original author of this change is RH | 14:47 |
| efried | right, I'm confirming that the original author, not the backport proposer, is who we care about when talking about same-company. | 14:47 |
| artom | mriedem, ah, so Lee backports a thing, that's a +2 in the bag if it's clean | 14:47 |
| mriedem | artom: for some things yes | 14:48 |
| sean-k-mooney | efried: yes it is | 14:48 |
| mriedem | not really for this b/c it's big as hell | 14:48 |
| artom | Dammit, nothing it black and white! | 14:48 |
| mriedem | and feature-y | 14:48 |
| mriedem | sorry, i'll get right to work on that law degree | 14:48 |
| efried | artom: That's why we don't want to write it down. | 14:48 |
| artom | efried, fair enough. | 14:48 |
| artom | Anyways, don't want to take up too much time. My takeaway is, use your judgment and don't piss off mriedem :D | 14:48 |
| sean-k-mooney | any way i think people are awre of this patch and can review it now | 14:49 |
| efried | so the answer to the general question is "case by case". And sounds like the answer for this specific patch is "let's not allow same-company". | 14:49 |
| artom | sean-k-mooney, for the record, I was using the patch as an example because I got asked that question about that patch | 14:49 |
| mriedem | is there a day where you guys downstream aren't talking about this same company approval thing? | 14:50 |
| artom | mriedem, no, we all dream about it | 14:50 |
| sean-k-mooney | ya well for that patch the aser is mriedem johnthetubaguy or claudiu can +w | 14:50 |
| mriedem | just start forking the code and be done with it | 14:50 |
| mriedem | claudiu isn't really upstream anymore | 14:50 |
| mriedem | anyway, can we move on? | 14:51 |
| artom | Dammit dude, the reason I'm asking here is because I actually care about upstream :) | 14:51 |
| mriedem | let's hug | 14:51 |
| artom | Bring it in brah | 14:51 |
| mriedem | i know you do, but i shoot the messenger | 14:51 |
| mriedem | sorry | 14:51 |
| efried | can we end on another rap tune? | 14:51 |
| efried | you don't | 14:51 |
| efried | wanna f with mriedem | 14:51 |
| efried | cause mriedem | 14:51 |
| efried | will f'in hug you | 14:51 |
| artom | Got 99 problems but upstream ain't one? | 14:52 |
| efried | #endmeeting | 14:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 14:52 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 16 14:52:05 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:52 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2019/nova.2019-05-16-14.00.html | 14:52 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2019/nova.2019-05-16-14.00.txt | 14:52 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2019/nova.2019-05-16-14.00.log.html | 14:52 |
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| gagehugo | #startmeeting security | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 16 15:00:43 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gagehugo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: security)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'security' | 15:00 |
| fungi | whee! | 15:00 |
| gagehugo | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/security-agenda agenda | 15:01 |
| efried | o/ | 15:01 |
| gagehugo | o/ | 15:01 |
| efried | (kashap, interested?) | 15:01 |
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| efried | kashyap: typo ^ | 15:01 |
| gagehugo | #topic spam pinging | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "spam pinging (Meeting topic: security)" | 15:03 | |
| * gagehugo lost the link he was saving | 15:03 | |
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| fungi | fwiw, i got a highlight on this buffer when you did the startmeeting, so no need to ping me .;) | 15:04 |
| gagehugo | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-May/006235.html | 15:04 |
| efried | if someone can figure out how to do highlight regexes in thunderbird IRC client, let me know please. | 15:04 |
| fungi | (also the remind utility lets me know when the meeting is due to start) | 15:04 |
| gagehugo | the ptl tips and tricks session in Denver, it was mentioned that spamming people is bad IRC etiquette, so I'll start sending a reminder in openstack-security prior to the meeting | 15:05 |
| gagehugo | and less spamming | 15:05 |
| * gagehugo needs to setup highlight for startmeeting | 15:05 | |
| gagehugo | #topic On reporting CPU flags that provide mitiation | 15:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "On reporting CPU flags that provide mitiation (Meeting topic: security)" | 15:06 | |
| gagehugo | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-May/006281.html | 15:06 |
| gagehugo | fungi: was this you? | 15:06 |
| fungi | well, i added it to the agenda because folks discussing on that ml thread wanted feedback from security-minded members of our community | 15:07 |
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| gagehugo | ok | 15:08 |
| efried | I'll represent, since kashyap and sean-k-mooney aren't around. | 15:08 |
| efried | I'll summarize the issue in terms of the bit we need security SIG's advice on. | 15:09 |
| efried | CPUs that are vulnerable to spectre/meltdown (or other things) have ways you can find out about that if you're on the host. CPU flags, queries in sysfs, etc. | 15:10 |
| efried | Nova has the ability to decorate resource providers with traits and then users can cause instances to be scheduled to (or avoid) hosts that have those traits. | 15:10 |
| efried | So the security question is: | 15:11 |
| efried | does it pose a security problem for nova to expose traits like "IS VULNERABLE" or "HAS FIX FOR VULNERABILITY" thus allowing users to say "Schedule me to a host that IS VULNERABLE" ? | 15:11 |
| efried | My take on this was that it's not a whole lot worse than if you just have that host in your cloud and the user could land on it randomly. | 15:11 |
| gagehugo | hmm | 15:12 |
| efried | i.e. if there's a vulnerability, there's a vulnerability; you're not making it better by making it slightly harder to exploit. | 15:12 |
| fungi | the only reason i can see for surfacing those cpu flags to users is operating systems/kernels which are making behavioral decisions based on their absence/presence. the linux kernel for example has specific optimizations it can perform when it sees the cpu flags which indicate patched microcode for some speculative execution flaws | 15:13 |
| fungi | i don't think they're relevant to scheduling decisions | 15:13 |
| efried | Yes. Or I might actually want to land on a host that has one of these flags because a) I trust my VM, and b) it gets me better performance. | 15:13 |
| efried | further, if we expose the trait, security-auditing agents (outside of nova) would be able to key on it to e.g. completely disable vulnerable hosts | 15:14 |
| gagehugo | If we want to ensure non-vulnerable hosts, then being able to specify would be useful | 15:15 |
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| fungi | maybe i'm misunderstanding, but as a user if given the option to schedule my workload to a vulnerable or non-vulnerable host, i'll always just choose the latter | 15:16 |
| gagehugo | yeah | 15:16 |
| fungi | unless the idea is that providers might charge more money for non-vulnerable service | 15:16 |
| gagehugo | or you have the auditing agents that can check/disable IS VULNERABLE ones | 15:16 |
| Tengu | or maybe wants to get better perfs for some non-important tasks, since meltdown correction slows down the perfs | 15:16 |
| cdent | what Tengu said is the main thing | 15:17 |
| fungi | or that for a private deployment i might select some portion of my workloads which aren't at risk of whatever a given vulnerability is and use that to distribute better | 15:17 |
| fungi | but in my opinion, none of those are security-relevant choices, they're choices which just happen to be related to security-oriented information | 15:18 |
| efried | point is, there are reasons to want to schedule to a "non-vulnerable" host, and there are reasons to want to schedule to a "vulnerable" host even if you're not a hacker. | 15:18 |
| efried | And if you're a hacker, not having these traits exposed doesn't prevent you from being scheduled to a vulnerable host. Something else has to do that. | 15:18 |
| efried | (whoah, that was a lot of negatives) | 15:19 |
| gagehugo | heh | 15:19 |
| gagehugo | are there any downsides to exposing those then? | 15:19 |
| fungi | my only real concern in this is that we expose the appropriate flags in the guest instances so that kernels know how to operate. scheduling decisions aren't anything which i care about either way. if users want to choose to run workloads on unpatched servers and providers want to make that an option then those are the operators and users you want to hear from | 15:20 |
| gagehugo | we don't want "hackers" to be able to target vulnerable systems, but they can still get scheduled to vulnerable systems anyway as is | 15:25 |
| gagehugo | imo I would assume operators would typically want to use NOT VULNERABLE for most cases (outside of non-risk workloads for performance gains) | 15:27 |
| fungi | yeah, if a provider doesn't want anyone scheduled to vulnerable systems, disable/patch those systems. scheduler roulette is not a security measure | 15:28 |
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| fungi | i hear plenty of stories from providers of malicious users spinning up batches of servers, often with some anti-affinity, to attempt to land on particular hosts | 15:29 |
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| efried | Cool, sounds like we have agreement. | 15:30 |
| efried | fungi: would you like to be the one to address this on the thread, or would you like me to do so? | 15:31 |
| fungi | i can add replying to my to do pile, but it may not happen until tomorrow | 15:31 |
| efried | I've already got a response started for other pieces, I can add this if you like. | 15:31 |
| fungi | oh, in that case feel free and i'll just mee-too yours ;) | 15:32 |
| efried | (should have led with that, but forgot I hadn't already sent it :) | 15:32 |
| efried | ight, will do. Thanks y'all. | 15:32 |
| kashyap | efried: Sorry, I was (and am) stuck in conflicting meetings :-( | 15:34 |
| fungi | kashyap: no worries, me too! | 15:34 |
| efried | kashyap: no worries, we figured it out, stand by for ML response. | 15:34 |
| kashyap | efried: Yeah, noted. Most appreciated. I will pay attention to the list | 15:35 |
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| kashyap | (Better to sort out on the e-mail these things.) Thanks for all the responses, everyone. | 15:35 |
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| gagehugo | cool, I can chime in as well if needed | 15:37 |
| gagehugo | #topic Summit BoF Session | 15:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit BoF Session (Meeting topic: security)" | 15:38 | |
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| gagehugo | the security SIG has a BoF session at the summit, the notes from that were mailed out, but can also be found here | 15:38 |
| fungi | that week was such a blur... did i show up to the bof? | 15:38 |
| gagehugo | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/security-sig-denver-summit | 15:38 |
| gagehugo | yes haha | 15:38 |
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| gagehugo | I was writing on the tiny whiteboard | 15:39 |
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| gagehugo | #topic open discussion | 15:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: security)" | 15:39 | |
| gagehugo | I have pangolin stickers (Security mascot) if anyone wants some, will need to figure out mailing | 15:40 |
| gagehugo | reach out/ping me if you want some | 15:40 |
| gagehugo | otherwise that's all I got | 15:40 |
| gagehugo | fungi: anything else? | 15:40 |
| fungi | nope, not from me at least | 15:41 |
| gagehugo | thanks everyone! | 15:41 |
| gagehugo | #endmeeting | 15:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 15:41 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 16 15:41:31 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:41 |
| fungi | thanks gagehugo! | 15:41 |
| Tengu | stickers? | 15:41 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/security/2019/security.2019-05-16-15.00.html | 15:41 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/security/2019/security.2019-05-16-15.00.txt | 15:41 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/security/2019/security.2019-05-16-15.00.log.html | 15:41 |
| gagehugo | Tengu yes | 15:41 |
| Tengu | STICKERS :D | 15:41 |
| fungi | left over from when there was a security team instead of a sig | 15:41 |
| Tengu | any way to ship to Switzerland, or maybe push one in Brno office since I'm going there in June? | 15:42 |
| gagehugo | possibly, I can look into it | 15:43 |
| Tengu | \o/ | 15:43 |
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