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| mlavalle | #startmeeting neutron_drivers | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Apr 12 14:00:39 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mlavalle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers' | 14:00 |
| yamamoto | hi | 14:00 |
| ralonsoh | hi | 14:00 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:01 |
| *** slaweq has joined #openstack-meeting | 14:02 | |
| mlavalle | Hi there | 14:02 |
| mlavalle | amotoki indocated he won't be able to join us | 14:02 |
| slaweq | hi | 14:03 |
| mlavalle | his flight is delayed. I find it hard to beleieve that flights also get delayed in Japan ;-) | 14:03 |
| slaweq | :D | 14:03 |
| mlavalle | so let's get going | 14:05 |
| mlavalle | #topic RFEs | 14:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "RFEs (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)" | 14:05 | |
| mlavalle | The first one for today is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1821208 | 14:05 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1821208 in neutron "[RFE] Only enforce policy when selected option does not match default" [Wishlist,Confirmed] | 14:05 |
| njohnston | Yes, this one comes from me | 14:06 |
| njohnston | The basic idea is that it is confusing for users if the supply some configuration in an api call that by policy they would not be allowed to supply - except the value they supplied was the default anyway. | 14:07 |
| mlavalle | in what situations / use cases would that happen? | 14:09 |
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| slaweq | mlavalle: e.g. in horizon | 14:09 |
| njohnston | I've heard this a few times over the years. The horizon case is just the most recent one. | 14:10 |
| slaweq | if there is "port_security" checkbox regular user can't create port even if this option was checked same as default value is | 14:10 |
| njohnston | ^ yes that is the horizon issue I was just about to explain | 14:11 |
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| slaweq | another possible option for such issues would be maybe to provide some mechanism to discovery attributes which user can set and use that in horizon for example | 14:12 |
| slaweq | but I have no idea how hard it would be to implement | 14:12 |
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| mlavalle | njohnston's proposal seems simpler and to the point | 14:12 |
| slaweq | mlavalle: yes | 14:13 |
| slaweq | and I think that njohnston's proposal is basically good | 14:13 |
| slaweq | but I also know that amotoki had some concerns about it :) | 14:13 |
| njohnston | A few years ago I was mentoring someone in openstack, and it was a frustration she had too; she wanted to create a network and she could but if she created a network where shared=false she couldn't; she didn't undestand why we weren't focused on the outcome of the call, since she didn't yet understand how to discover what things she was and wasn't able to do by policy | 14:13 |
| yamamoto | is amotoki saying horizon should not display the check box in that case? | 14:13 |
| slaweq | yamamoto: yes, but how horizon should know now when to display this box and when not? | 14:14 |
| yamamoto | by looking policy.json? | 14:14 |
| njohnston | I think amotoki expressed that this is a change that could have security impacts, which I recognize, especially if it is not implemented very rigorously. | 14:15 |
| slaweq | yamamoto: how horizon knows neutron's policy.json? | 14:15 |
| njohnston | I did ask for any specific concerns; I wonder if we should table discussion intil he can be here and he has a chance to bring up any he has discerned | 14:15 |
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| yamamoto | slaweq: i don't know. i just read amotoki's comment. :-) | 14:16 |
| slaweq | yamamoto: ok :) I though that maybe You know something which I missed :) | 14:16 |
| slaweq | yamamoto: so based on amotoki's comments I said at the beginning that as an alternative solution we can try to create some discovery mechanism | 14:17 |
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| njohnston | so horizon does embed policy.json files for neutron, nova, and possibly others | 14:17 |
| yamamoto | https://docs.openstack.org/horizon/latest/configuration/settings.html#policy-files | 14:18 |
| njohnston | what I have noticed is that there seems to be a specific flavor of programmer out there that wants to supply all possible options to a given operation to remove the ambiguity of what code might default to | 14:19 |
| mlavalle | so it knows our policy | 14:20 |
| njohnston | I've seen this especially when dealing with people coming from a military or government coding paradigm | 14:20 |
| mlavalle | I tend to be like that | 14:21 |
| mlavalle | for example, in my devstack settings, I try to set neutron params explicitely | 14:22 |
| yamamoto | it sounds a bit strange to me to include options rejected by policy in "all possible options" | 14:23 |
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| * mlavalle is not military by any stretch of the imagination.... just a little ocd | 14:23 | |
| njohnston_ | and when I have had to explain why neutron forbids them specifying an option because of a policy concern even though the resultant VM would be the same - because what they are specifying was the default - each time I have had to answer the question "why should neutron care if there's no change to the end product? | 14:24 |
| njohnston_ | And I respond by saying "well neutron checks whether you're allowed to specify a thing before it even looks at what the thing is you're specifying", which whiole true is a sort of neutron-programmer-centric view of things that I think isn't a great user experience | 14:24 |
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| mlavalle | \what happens with other projects? | 14:25 |
| mlavalle | say Nova | 14:25 |
| mlavalle | maybe we are the odd ones | 14:25 |
| njohnston_ | mlavalle: I don't know about nova. But when I started looking in to this I asked the in #openstack-oslo, and those people pointed me to the keystone folks | 14:26 |
| slaweq | maybe we should send an email and ask community and e.g. API SIG about how it should be done? | 14:26 |
| mlavalle | yeah, I was thinking of the API SIG guys | 14:26 |
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| njohnston_ | Keystone actually has their policy.enforce call in a decorator and so asserts it in a per-method form, so some api calls are governed by policy but maybe others are done differently | 14:26 |
| mlavalle | well maybe this would trigger a conversation with API SIG that will unify the approache | 14:27 |
| mlavalle | approaches^^^^ | 14:27 |
| njohnston_ | They commended the way Neutron does it, right at the start of api request processing, as being more paintainable | 14:27 |
| njohnston_ | https://opendev.org/openstack/neutron/src/branch/master/neutron/api/v2/base.py#L469 | 14:27 |
| njohnston_ | but they said that it is done that way partially so that a project could do prevalidation of this sort if it wanted to | 14:28 |
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| mlavalle | overall, I lean towards approving this RFE | 14:30 |
| njohnston_ | would you like me to write to openstack-discuss and solicit opinions from the API SIG? | 14:30 |
| mlavalle | I see njohnston_ usability / consistency point | 14:30 |
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| mlavalle | I would like to hear, though, amotoki's potential security concerns | 14:31 |
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| njohnston_ | mlavalle: I absolutely agree; amotoki is wise, and I want to make sure that if there is any possibility of opening a vulnerability with this that it is avoided | 14:31 |
| mlavalle | and since we are going to wait for a week to hear from him, we might as well ask the API SIG opinion | 14:32 |
| njohnston_ | mlavalle: Very good, I will send an email. | 14:32 |
| mlavalle | does that work for everybody? | 14:33 |
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| slaweq | +! | 14:33 |
| slaweq | +1 | 14:33 |
| yamamoto | is it always trivial to check if the given value is same as the default? | 14:33 |
| njohnston_ | With policy.code it's not hard I don't think | 14:33 |
| * haleyb spaced on meeting | 14:34 | |
| yamamoto | for defaults specified in RESOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_MAP maybe it's easy | 14:35 |
| njohnston_ | I'm not sure how it will work for api extensions, but that is an implementation issue | 14:35 |
| yamamoto | but i wouldn't be surprised if there are some plugins which computes the default more dynamically | 14:35 |
| njohnston_ | there might be some cases where we can't compute the default and so we can't offer this kind of helpful behavior. I think we still achieve some benefit by doing what we can with checking static defaults. | 14:36 |
| mlavalle | in that case, let's confine this RFE to deafults in RESOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_MAP | 14:36 |
| mlavalle | and we can even document that behavior | 14:37 |
| slaweq | I agree with mlavalle | 14:37 |
| mlavalle | yamamoto's point is good, though | 14:38 |
| mlavalle | subtle as usual | 14:38 |
| njohnston_ | makes sense | 14:38 |
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| mlavalle | so to summarize: | 14:39 |
| yamamoto | i suspect it isn't always obvious to api users if an attribute falls in the category or not | 14:39 |
| mlavalle | agree, but we can strive to document that if there are exceptions to the behaviour it is due to the fact that the plugin in question computes the default dynamically, / non - standadr way | 14:41 |
| mlavalle | so here's what I propose as inerim decisions on this RFE: | 14:42 |
| mlavalle | 1) delimit this change to defaults in RESOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_MAP and document that if the default is not in the map the bahvior might not be the same | 14:43 |
| mlavalle | 2) Solicit input from the API SIG | 14:43 |
| mlavalle | 3) Discuss with amotoki next week | 14:43 |
| mlavalle | does this work? | 14:43 |
| njohnston_ | yes definitely | 14:44 |
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| slaweq | good for me | 14:44 |
| yamamoto | sounds good | 14:44 |
| mlavalle | cool | 14:46 |
| mlavalle | let's try to get to the next one: | 14:46 |
| mlavalle | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1823633 | 14:46 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1823633 in neutron "[RFE] L3 - netfilter Contrack Helper Support" [Wishlist,New] | 14:46 |
| mlavalle | while the other read through it, haleyb did you get the feedback you were going to ask on this one from someone in Red Hat? | 14:47 |
| haleyb | mlavalle: no, not yet, i will ping him again today | 14:47 |
| mlavalle | haleyb: ok | 14:47 |
| mlavalle | haleyb: how would his feedback change this? | 14:48 |
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| haleyb | just if he said, "your in a namespace, just enable it", instead of loading just what we need | 14:49 |
| mlavalle | in that case, no change would be needed | 14:50 |
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| haleyb | right, but i don't think he'll say that after reading through the blogs, etc, it's a remote chance | 14:50 |
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| mlavalle | yes, I think so. and it seems to me that more than a RFE, this is potentially on the brink of becoming a bug if we don't get ahead of the curve | 14:52 |
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| haleyb | +1 | 14:54 |
| njohnston_ | +1 | 14:54 |
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| slaweq | +1 | 14:55 |
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| mlavalle | should we approve it? | 14:57 |
| mlavalle | I say yes | 14:57 |
| yamamoto | so, right now it behaves differently among distros, and this rfe doesn't make them consistent? | 14:57 |
| mlavalle | my understanding is that with this change, the behavior will be consistent accross distros | 14:58 |
| yamamoto | or are we going to disable the helper regardless of distros' default? | 14:58 |
| mlavalle | That is my understanding, since it is anyway the best practice | 14:59 |
| yamamoto | ok, then it makes sense | 14:59 |
| haleyb | yes, it could be different, but i think every new distro release could disable it by default | 14:59 |
| yamamoto | +1 for approve | 14:59 |
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| yamamoto | at least we recommend to disable it, right? | 14:59 |
| mlavalle | yes | 14:59 |
| slaweq | +1 | 14:59 |
| mlavalle | are all the others ok with approving? | 15:00 |
| haleyb | +1 | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | I'll make a note that this should be consistent accross all distros | 15:00 |
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| mlavalle | ok, thanks for attendingQ! | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | have a nice weekend! | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Apr 12 15:00:47 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2019/neutron_drivers.2019-04-12-14.00.html | 15:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2019/neutron_drivers.2019-04-12-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2019/neutron_drivers.2019-04-12-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
| slaweq | have a great weekend :) | 15:01 |
| slaweq | o/ | 15:01 |
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