Thursday, 2018-11-15

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ekcstime for congress meeting10:00
ekcs#startmeeting congressteammeeting10:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Nov 15 10:00:57 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ekcs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.10:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.10:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: congressteammeeting)"10:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'congressteammeeting'10:01
ramineniekcs: hi10:01
akhil_jainekcs: Hi!10:01
ekcshello all. thanks for making this meeting time. typically we’d just skip a meeting during summit week, but with biweekly meetings that messes things up a bit.10:01
ekcshi ramineni10:01
ekcshi akhil_jain10:01
ekcstopics kept here as usual. please add any topics you have: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/congress-meeting-topics10:01
ekcsok let’s get started then.10:05
ramineniekcs: have few questions/concerns regarding the spec10:05
ekcsramineni: great!10:05
ekcs#topic json spec10:06
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ramineniekcs: will there be mapping b/w congress and new repo cloudstate?10:06
raminenior its totally independent10:06
ekcsat this point it’s proposed as a totally independent experiment. if it proves useful we can make a decision to integrate.10:07
ramineniekcs: so separate api will be there in new repo10:08
raminenito poll data ?10:08
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ekcsI think to start out, data sources can be configured in yaml files rather than by API.10:09
ekcsso basically it won’t need an API except to accept webhooks.10:09
ramineniif I understand correctly, user needs to add a yaml file with all the details to poll, instead of datasource drivers and all the polling data would be stored in database as opposed to temporary strucrture10:09
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ekcsyes.10:10
ramineniekcs: but polling needs to started, or will it read yaml from time to time10:10
ekcsas a starting point, I’m thinking just read the yaml files on start. if user adds a new one, they can just restart service to trigger reread.10:11
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ramineniekcs: if I remember , congress also supports persistent option to store data permanently right10:11
ekcsyes congress already has some support for that. at least on push drivers.10:12
ekcsthe main idea of the experiment is to see if a model of congress where every datasource driver is effectively generic, using queries over json data, is useful to ops.10:13
ramineniekcs: I like the part of using yaml instead of adding datasource drivers , but im not sure hw much it would benefit end users to write policies on database10:13
ramineniekcs: and also schema would be confusing for end users , in tabular its more consistent and easy to write policies I feel10:14
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ekcsramineni: that makes sense. i’m not sure either. that’s why the thinking is to make it a experiment that’s small and quick to build. by relying on a database directly rather than rebuilding one, this can be done very quickly. and can be tried out to see whether the model works well. we may find that direct interaction with database is not good. or find it’s great.10:15
ramineniekcs: and also for the same, direct connectivity to database should be exposed , won't be security issue? how much feasible in production environs10:15
ekcsramineni: yes that’s a good point to consider. So far in my research postgres can be secured with very fine grained access control. but if it turns out that’s bad for production, then we can add a redirect layer.10:16
ekcson the issue of schema, it’s definitely a trade off. table data is simplest for the user, but requires complex translation and is inflexible.10:17
ramineniekcs: adding redirection would be again huge code to add , eventually new repo will become huge project10:17
ramineniekcs: what do you mean by complex translation?10:19
ekcsmy hope is no redirection will be needed. but if it turns out to be needed, then maybe the experiment has served its purpose and we don’t keep adding to it.10:19
ekcsso if we want to allow ops to add sources via config, then either we don’t do translation (keep json) or the config basically need to have all[ the translation code currently in datasource drivers.10:21
ekcsI think it’d serve a different class of users well to do json directly. but if i turn out to be wrong then the experiment has served its purpose and we can just stop it.10:22
ekcsI think we all know it’s hard to write the translator code.10:22
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ekcsI still have to fiddle around and trial and error sometimes even after doing it so long. unrealistic to expect a user to do that.10:23
ramineniekcs: For developer, writing translation is not much hardwork , as they know language and have examples of other translations , but endusers who need not have to know language , would find hard to write database queries everytime10:25
ramineniekcs: I meant , for endusers ulmitely we have to make it easy to use10:25
raminenias they won't have much knowledge of internal databse queries , or need not to know database schema10:26
ramineniekcs: isn't it much to ask from endusers10:26
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ramineniand also writing poliies for complex schema would be difficult in database ? where we have many nested structures10:27
ekcsI think that’s the case where congress already works great. the user stays within the data made available by congress developers, then the current way is best. the problem is when the user want to use new data as they write policy, then it’s terrible. I want to experiment to see whether this is a way to address that case.10:28
ekcswriting the queries is certainly harder than pure table, but I think it’s actually easier than we may think.10:28
ekcsjson queries is becoming very standard10:28
ekcswith the nosql movement.10:28
ekcsnesting is not a big issue.10:29
ekcsjust -> operator to access.10:29
ekcsI think my main thinking is that this is quick to build. and we don’t even have to support it because it’s experiment.10:29
ekcsinstead of us thinking about whether it’s too hard. we can just put it out there.10:30
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ramineniekcs: for new data being accssible in congress , can we find a way for adding dynamic schema instead10:30
ramineniekcs: im just thinking , its hard for endusers to use, then why is it needed , we should look for other alternatives10:30
ramineniif its hard**10:30
ramineniekcs:  just a new repo would be hardwork , thinking if we have simpler alternative to address the issue , but if you are convinced that is the best way , please go ahead10:33
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ekcsmy thinking is we don’t know whether it’ll be a little bit hard or way too hard. I’m thinking it’ll only be a little bit hard because the language and concept of querying json is widespread. operators generally have at least general familiarity with sql syntax. also it may be used by openstack distributors / NFV vendors to specify policy.10:34
ekcsI’ve presented it briefly to ops at a summit forum and so far the feedback is positive.10:35
ekcsbut really we won’t know until it’s gets used.10:35
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ekcsI appreciate your concerns! do you have something in mind for dynamic schema?10:36
ramineniekcs: just thought , using the yaml , you have specified , we can do something integrated in congress as well to address issue, but not concrete10:37
ramineniekcs: but if ops interested , we can go ahead with you are approach10:38
ramineniyour**10:38
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ekcsI see what you mean. I’ve been thinking about the same thing for a while too. the problem is the data comes in in json. so either it needs to be translated to tables (the current translator code), or a language is needed to query the json. We could develop our own language and engine to query json, but for the moment at least it seems way too much investment for experimenting.10:39
ekcsakhil_jain: do yo have any thoughts?10:40
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ramineniekcs: right10:41
akhil_jainekcs: just to avoid translator making whole repo should not be good. i would prefer conventional way we are following. but anyways ready to support your idea and contribute10:42
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ramineniekcs: but for yaml part , I would like that to be integrated as alternative in congress as well sometime:)10:43
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ekcsramineni: that makes sense.10:45
ekcsakhil_jain: I see. I think the conventional way is good too when the data needed is already available. just proposing to explore a new model of unlimited data, without complicating existing code.10:51
akhil_jainramineni: yes that will be good, but not sure if we can add another layer in congress itself(for yaml) without complicating things. we can also reuse many things by this10:53
akhil_jainekcs: *10:53
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ekcsakhil_jain: I see.10:57
ekcswell i think we’re coming up on time.10:58
ekcsmaybe comment on gerrit for further comments?10:58
ekcsany other quick topics now?10:58
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akhil_jainnone from my side11:00
ramineniekcs: no, ill comment on gerrit if any other questions on spec11:00
ekcsok well thanks for all the discusion and feedback!11:00
ekcslet’s wrap up then. have a great day!11:01
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ekcs#endmeeting11:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/"11:01
openstackMeeting ended Thu Nov 15 11:01:15 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)11:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2018/congressteammeeting.2018-11-15-10.00.html11:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2018/congressteammeeting.2018-11-15-10.00.txt11:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2018/congressteammeeting.2018-11-15-10.00.log.html11:01
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