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| hongbin | #startmeeting zun | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 03:00:12 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'zun' | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-06-21_0300_UTC Today's agenda | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #topic Roll Call | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
| mkrai | Madhuri Kumari | 03:00 |
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| Wenzhi | Wenzhi Yu | 03:00 |
| namrata | Namrata Sitlani | 03:00 |
| eliqiao | o/ | 03:00 |
| gcb | hi | 03:00 |
| haiwei_ | ho | 03:00 |
| haiwei_ | hi | 03:00 |
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| yanyanhu | hi | 03:01 |
| gcb | I'm ChangBo Guo (aka gcb), from EasyStack, have been working in oslo and Nova, would like to contribute in project zun | 03:01 |
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| yanyanhu | welcome, gcb :) | 03:01 |
| feisky | Hello, everyone | 03:01 |
| flwang | gcb: hey | 03:01 |
| hongbin | Thanks for joining the meeting mkrai Wenzhi namrata eliqiao gcb haiwei_ yanyanhu feisky flwang | 03:01 |
| hongbin | Welcome gcb | 03:02 |
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| hongbin | #topic Announcements | 03:02 |
| flwang | hongbin: gcb and i were collogues when we worked for ibm | 03:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:02 | |
| hongbin | flwang: I see | 03:02 |
| sudipto | o/ | 03:02 |
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| hongbin | I have no annoucement | 03:02 |
| hongbin | Any annoucement from our team member? | 03:02 |
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| hongbin | #topic Review Action Items | 03:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:03 | |
| eliqiao | welcome gcb | 03:03 |
| hongbin | hongbin create an etherpad as a draft of Zun design spec (DONE) | 03:03 |
| Wenzhi | flwang: I am also a IBMer, and you introduced OpenStack to me in 2013, haha:) | 03:03 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-design-spec | 03:03 |
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| hongbin | I will continue work on the etherpad above | 03:04 |
| hongbin | Feel free to write down your notes and comments there | 03:04 |
| hongbin | #topic Architecture design | 03:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Architecture design (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:04 | |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions | 03:04 |
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| hongbin | sudipto: created this etherpad to collaborate on the architecture design | 03:05 |
| hongbin | I plan to spend about 10 - 15 minutes for everyone to comment on it | 03:05 |
| hongbin | agree? | 03:05 |
| hongbin | or we can do it as homework | 03:06 |
| eliqiao | hongbin: do you need us to input it now? | 03:06 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: yes please | 03:06 |
| sudipto | hongbin, i guess offline is better, since this would need people to think through? | 03:06 |
| hongbin | sudipto: ack | 03:06 |
| hongbin | offline everyone? | 03:07 |
| hongbin | or online for a few minutes? | 03:07 |
| mkrai | offline is better | 03:07 |
| hongbin | (no response, I guess folks are reading the etherpad...) | 03:07 |
| eliqiao | +1 for offline | 03:08 |
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| namrata | offline | 03:08 |
| hongbin | OK. Then let's advance topic | 03:08 |
| hongbin | #topic API design | 03:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API design (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:08 | |
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| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/api-design The BP | 03:08 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/containers-service-api 2013 Etherpad | 03:08 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-containers-service-api 2014 Etherpad | 03:08 |
| hongbin | mkrai: could you lead the discussion of hte API design? | 03:08 |
| mkrai | Yes sure hongbin | 03:09 |
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| mkrai | As you can see the page explains the endpoint for each resource in Zun | 03:09 |
| mkrai | And resource representation in Zun | 03:09 |
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| mkrai | We have collected samples from K8s, docker-compose, rocket | 03:10 |
| mkrai | And tried to create one for us. | 03:10 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api The latest etherpad | 03:10 |
| mkrai | If everyone is ok with representation, we can start creating a spec for it. | 03:11 |
| sudipto | There's one more the atomic container creation - i guess we need to think about a group of containers too? | 03:11 |
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| mkrai | sudipto: That would be some advance operation? | 03:12 |
| hongbin | sudipto: I think we can start with basic first, we are free to add support for group of containers later | 03:12 |
| sudipto | hongbin, ok | 03:13 |
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| yanyanhu | agree with mkrai that looks like an advanced operation | 03:13 |
| mkrai | +1 hongbin | 03:13 |
| mkrai | Everyone agrees to submit a spec now? | 03:13 |
| mkrai | Everyone can always write their input on ps | 03:14 |
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| eliqiao | +1 for spec reviewing | 03:14 |
| haiwei_ | yes, there should be a spec I think | 03:14 |
| hongbin | mkrai: Here is what I think | 03:14 |
| yanyanhu | +1 | 03:14 |
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| hongbin | mkrai: We need to identify the list of container runtimes we want to support first | 03:14 |
| mkrai | hongbin: ack | 03:15 |
| hongbin | mkrai: Then, evaluate if the APIs listed there is supported by which runtime or not | 03:15 |
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| sudipto | hongbin, +1 | 03:15 |
| hongbin | If some APIs are not supported well by most of the runtimes/COEs, then we need to remove it | 03:15 |
| eliqiao | mkrai: please consider use async API calls at the begining. | 03:16 |
| sudipto | eliqiao, +1 | 03:16 |
| mkrai | hongbin: Why can't we have them? | 03:16 |
| mkrai | Calls will be made based on the type of container runtime | 03:16 |
| hongbin | mkrai: No, my point is to identify which technology we want to support first | 03:17 |
| sudipto | basically, i think we need to define how the APIs broadly apply for various runtimes. Like let's say - what happens when you want to use the same APIs for a POD creation? Or for that matter a VM creation for Hyper kind of scenarios? | 03:17 |
| mkrai | Ok. I will collect information on this too. | 03:17 |
| hongbin | Here is the list in the etherpad | 03:18 |
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| hongbin | 1. Raw docker | 03:18 |
| hongbin | 2. Kubernetes | 03:18 |
| hongbin | 3. Rocket | 03:18 |
| hongbin | 4. Hyper | 03:18 |
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| hongbin | Everyone is happy with this list? | 03:18 |
| sudipto | Did anyone from Hyper join? | 03:19 |
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| mkrai | hongbin: K8s is a container management tool | 03:19 |
| feisky | Y, I'm from hyper | 03:19 |
| sudipto | feisky, hello! Glad to have you hear! | 03:19 |
| feisky | Hyper supports all apis listed. | 03:19 |
| hongbin | mkrai: Yes, then we can debate that | 03:19 |
| mkrai | So why are we counting as runtime tool | 03:19 |
| mkrai | Yes please hongbin. I would like to hear | 03:20 |
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| hongbin | I don't have position on supporting k8s or not | 03:20 |
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| hongbin | But I want to have a discussion within the team | 03:20 |
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| yanyanhu | maybe just start from docker/lxc at the beginning? | 03:21 |
| hongbin | That is Zun should support container runtimes only? or consider k8s as well? | 03:21 |
| yanyanhu | the most common used ones | 03:21 |
| mkrai | IMO integrating with COEs is an advance feature | 03:21 |
| yanyanhu | +1 | 03:21 |
| sudipto | yeah, if zun has to support container runtimes only then we are creating a wrapper around docker and eventually competing with the COEs? | 03:21 |
| mkrai | Not similar to docker, hyper or rocket | 03:21 |
| haiwei_ | agree with mkrai | 03:22 |
| flwang | sudipto: agree | 03:22 |
| mkrai | sudipto: I am afraid, we will end up with this | 03:22 |
| yanyanhu | we will support k8s in future with a driver/plugin, but maybe not now I think | 03:22 |
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| flwang | we still haven't got a conclusion how to place Zun | 03:22 |
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| flwang | is it another COE or we want to place it on top of Magnum | 03:23 |
| Wenzhi | agree yanyanhu | 03:23 |
| hongbin | From my point of view, it is hard to compete with k8s, if we can avoid that, I prefer to avoid | 03:23 |
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| sudipto | flwang, that's exactly my confusion too. I think we have to get that sorted first. | 03:23 |
| sudipto | or if it's clearer to other folks, maybe we should just talk about it. | 03:24 |
| flwang | sudipto: we're on same page :D | 03:24 |
| haiwei_ | why does Zun compete with k8s? | 03:24 |
| yanyanhu | talking with magnum/backend COEs is option, but not the only way I think | 03:24 |
| flwang | not really | 03:24 |
| mkrai | hongbin: I completely agree that we shouldn't compete with k8s or swarm or any COEs. | 03:24 |
| Wenzhi | we must be careful when designing Zun to avoid duplication/competition with COEs/Nova | 03:24 |
| mkrai | That is not our motive anyhow. | 03:24 |
| flwang | if Zun can talk with container runtime directly | 03:25 |
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| flwang | just like other COE | 03:25 |
| flwang | then that means Zun have to do all the things Nova has done, if you want a production service, not a toy | 03:25 |
| yanyanhu | that is Zun for I think :) | 03:25 |
| mkrai | IMO Zun should support all basic operations, and for advances feature it can depend on other COEs | 03:26 |
| yanyanhu | container management service in openstack | 03:26 |
| flwang | like AZ, aggregate, cell, server group, in other words, you have to manage host | 03:26 |
| yanyanhu | mkrai, +1 | 03:26 |
| sudipto | flwang, exactly so - there's a lot of work which has already been done and we would be duplicating stuff...eventually that would probably lead to us falling short of others... | 03:26 |
| flwang | if we put it on Magnum, then the host is not provided by cloud provider, but the VM's within the user's tenant | 03:26 |
| flwang | just like AWS ECS did | 03:27 |
| yanyanhu | I think we can borrow/leverage some existing design of nova to support those functionalities, like host management, scheduling. But as an individual container management service, Zun need them | 03:27 |
| mkrai | Ok so hongbin everyone, I think first we should make clear between team that we want to compete with other COEs(include all advance features) or not(integrate with COEs) | 03:27 |
| mkrai | Then only we can decide our design | 03:28 |
| sudipto | mkrai, +1 | 03:28 |
| Wenzhi | +1 | 03:28 |
| hongbin | I think the question is not only if we should compete with k8s or not | 03:28 |
| flwang | i know we're trying to touch some shadow corner, but we have to face it :D | 03:28 |
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| hongbin | The critical part is if we competes with k8s, what is hte points that differentiate Zun with k8s | 03:29 |
| haiwei_ | then we go back to zun's use case | 03:29 |
| sudipto | I think there's a lack of consensus here. I think creating a wrapper does mean competing with other COEs. That's an architectural decision. Creating the API would be an engineering challenge that should follow after that. | 03:29 |
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| yanyanhu | I don't think this is just for competing with other COEs | 03:30 |
| yanyanhu | we are building a container management service in openstack | 03:30 |
| sudipto | yanyanhu, and what is the greater implications of it? COntainers are not like VMs, so you would most likely build a PaaS on top. | 03:31 |
| mkrai | It will be very premature to decide now. My opinion is to start with basic operations which anyhow we are going to support in any case. | 03:31 |
| sudipto | Or do you want zun to become something like solum? | 03:31 |
| yanyanhu | sudipto, I think that depends on how user use container | 03:31 |
| yanyanhu | maybe that want to use it as VM, e.g. a lxc container | 03:31 |
| yanyanhu | maybe they want to build PaaS solution based on dockers | 03:32 |
| Wenzhi | seems if Zun does not compete with COEs/Nova, then the scope of Zun would be quite small | 03:32 |
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| yanyanhu | but maybe we shouldn't strictly limit our work scope on PaaS layer | 03:32 |
| hongbin | Yes, there is a tradeoff | 03:32 |
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| yanyanhu | Wenzhi, +1 | 03:33 |
| sudipto | yanyanhu, if you want to build a PaaS solution using docker, the customer might want to choose a far more matured COE like Kubernetes... unless we spend day and night and re-invent the same code in Python in OpenStack. | 03:33 |
| flwang | Wenzhi: that's not correct | 03:33 |
| mkrai | +1 sudipto | 03:33 |
| yanyanhu | sudipto, you're right. That is because there is no native container management service in openstack in last two years | 03:33 |
| flwang | we can do the similar stuff like ECS, but let magnum do the underhood things | 03:33 |
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| yanyanhu | so Kubernetes became the best choice for user | 03:34 |
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| Wenzhi | flwang: seems reasonable | 03:34 |
| sudipto | flwang, i think the magnum integration is a key. | 03:34 |
| flwang | sudipto: we're on the same page again :D | 03:35 |
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| hongbin | Yes, I think Magnum integration is the long-term direction | 03:35 |
| Wenzhi | does it make sense if we design Zun as an OpenStack native container orchestration engine, compete with k8s/swarm...? | 03:35 |
| sudipto | flwang, :) i guess, most of such points are the ones to discuss in the architecture decision link that hongbin pasted above. | 03:35 |
| yanyanhu | if we build Zun upon existing COEs as just a wrapper, IMHO, the meaning of this project is rally limited | 03:36 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions | 03:36 |
| hongbin | yanyanhu: good point | 03:36 |
| sudipto | It's a trade off really, whether we want to create just a wrapper or list down - some value adds that we think we can give. | 03:36 |
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| * sudipto calls for a SWOT analysis. :) | 03:37 | |
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| hongbin | Here is what I think. It might be OK to have a small overlay with COEs and NOva | 03:37 |
| hongbin | But we need to find the points that we are strong at | 03:37 |
| yanyanhu | sudipto, agree that we need a tradeoff there. I just feel using COEs as backend is an option for Zun and we can support it. But we'd better don't limit us to it | 03:38 |
| hongbin | which could address use cases that other COEs cannot address | 03:38 |
| sudipto | yeah the COE competition is alright, as long as we : 1. don't end up re-inventing everything. 2. can bring in strong value adds from the openstack ecosystem. | 03:38 |
| yanyanhu | hongbin, +1 | 03:38 |
| yanyanhu | especially in openstack environment | 03:38 |
| yanyanhu | what is our differentiation from other COEs | 03:38 |
| Wenzhi | hongbin: then how about make Zun a COE? | 03:38 |
| mkrai | hongbin: +1 | 03:39 |
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| yanyanhu | e.g. better integration with openstack SDN(neutron/kuryr) | 03:39 |
| mkrai | Wenzhi: Its too early to say that :D | 03:39 |
| yanyanhu | or openstack SDS | 03:39 |
| hongbin | yes, network and storage is hte selling points? | 03:39 |
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| mkrai | keystone also | 03:40 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 03:40 |
| sudipto | if we are going in the direction of COEs - then i guess there are much more things to consider - right from whether mysql is the way to go or not and that's a rabbit hole. | 03:40 |
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| sudipto | so i guess let's debate on the etherpad offline? | 03:41 |
| yanyanhu | yes, offline debate is better | 03:41 |
| hongbin | ok | 03:41 |
| yanyanhu | only 20 minutes left for meeting... | 03:41 |
| mkrai | Etherpad link? | 03:41 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions | 03:41 |
| mkrai | Thanks hongbin | 03:42 |
| hongbin | mkrai: You have anything else for the API design, or advance topic? | 03:42 |
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| mkrai | No that's all. | 03:42 |
| mkrai | Very good discussion | 03:42 |
| hongbin | mkrai: Thanks Madhuri for leading the API design efforts | 03:43 |
| hongbin | #topic Nova integration | 03:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova integration (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:43 | |
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| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/nova-integration The BP | 03:43 |
| hongbin | This is the last item in hte agenda | 03:43 |
| hongbin | anyone here is working on the nova integration? | 03:44 |
| mkrai | I guess Aditi is not here | 03:44 |
| sudipto | like it or hate it, i guess it might be a good starting point. | 03:44 |
| mkrai | I like it sudipto personally :) | 03:45 |
| hongbin | sudipto: Yes, you have idea on how to implement it? | 03:45 |
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| flwang | hongbin: i think we just need to follow how nova integrate with Ironic | 03:45 |
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| hongbin | flwang: OK, if we follows what nova-ironic integration, here is what it will look like | 03:46 |
| sudipto | hongbin, again that boils down to what we want to achieve. I thought we wanted something like nova-docker here? | 03:46 |
| hongbin | 1. THere is a Zun virt driver for nova | 03:46 |
| namrata | I want to work in it | 03:46 |
| hongbin | 2. The Zun virt driver will talk to the Zun Rest API | 03:46 |
| hongbin | 3. The Zun service will do the real work on processing the request | 03:47 |
| hongbin | namrata: sure, please feel free to ping the BP owner | 03:47 |
| mkrai | hongbin: I just have once concern | 03:47 |
| sudipto | hongbin, waiting for the 4th point.... | 03:47 |
| sudipto | :) | 03:47 |
| mkrai | I am not sure but my understanding is correct or not. Does Ironic use Nova scheduler? | 03:48 |
| hongbin | sudipto: I finished my point :) | 03:48 |
| hongbin | mkrai: yes | 03:48 |
| hongbin | mkrai: Here is how it works | 03:48 |
| mkrai | So what about our scheduler? | 03:48 |
| sudipto | mkrai, it does but it wants to split out. | 03:48 |
| sudipto | hongbin, so the virt_driver is very analogus to the nova-docker driver? | 03:48 |
| eliqiao | mkrai: then we don't need scheduler ourselves. | 03:48 |
| hongbin | I guess nova will pull Ironic to get a list of hosts | 03:48 |
| mkrai | We will also have scheduler so implementation will be different | 03:49 |
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| mkrai | eliqiao: Is it? | 03:49 |
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| sudipto | btw nova has some lxc support as well. | 03:49 |
| hongbin | sudipto: Not really, the Zun virt driver might be just a proxy to the Zun rest API | 03:49 |
| sudipto | hongbin, ok | 03:50 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: No, we still need a schduler | 03:50 |
| eliqiao | hongbin: for what? | 03:50 |
| mkrai | eliqiao: IMO we need a scheduler | 03:50 |
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| hongbin | eliqiao: Here is my understanding | 03:50 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: nova schedule the request to a nova-compute | 03:51 |
| hongbin | eliqiao: the nova-compute forward it the the virt driver | 03:51 |
| eliqiao | hongbin: ,oh, I get | 03:51 |
| eliqiao | hongbin: I see. | 03:51 |
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| hongbin | #topic Open Discussion | 03:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:51 | |
| mkrai | hongbin: Sorry I didn't get, where comes our scheduler? | 03:52 |
| sudipto | mkrai, hongbin i too am a bit confused now. | 03:52 |
| hongbin | well I might be wrong | 03:52 |
| sudipto | when you say zun virt_driver - i guess you mean a compute driver? | 03:52 |
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| eliqiao | mkrai: nova-api -> nova-cond -> nova->scheduler -> nova-cpu -> zun-virt -> zun-api -> zun-cond -> zun-scheduler -> zun-agent | 03:53 |
| hongbin | Zun scheduler is for scheduling request from Zun api to a host | 03:53 |
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| hongbin | eliqiao: I guess you are correct | 03:53 |
| mkrai | what is the use of host selected by nova? | 03:53 |
| eliqiao | so long a call stack :( | 03:53 |
| mkrai | I understand the flow eliqiao | 03:53 |
| sudipto | that does not look right | 03:54 |
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| mkrai | Agree sudipto | 03:54 |
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| sudipto | once you have reached nova-cpu - why do you want to go back to the API layer? | 03:54 |
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| flwang | as for the flow you mentioned above, we need to figure out the host managed by nova and zun | 03:54 |
| eliqiao | sudipto: that's what ironic does | 03:55 |
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| eliqiao | nova-cpu only does the request forwarding. | 03:55 |
| hongbin | basically my understanding is there are two level of scheduling | 03:55 |
| sudipto | eliqiao, ah now i get the point. | 03:55 |
| eliqiao | acutally, 1st (nova-scheduler) doesn't nothing help at all. | 03:56 |
| sudipto | eliqiao, however, ironic does baremetal - which is OK to be slow - will it be alright to do this for a container? | 03:56 |
| mkrai | sudipto: I don't think so | 03:56 |
| mkrai | We should have different implementation for containers | 03:56 |
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| hongbin | However, we cannot change nova code, that is the limitation | 03:57 |
| sudipto | i guess this also is an etherpad discussion then? | 03:57 |
| * sudipto observes the clock. | 03:57 | |
| mkrai | And then it also depends on nova community for acceptance with different implementation | 03:57 |
| hongbin | ok, I will create another etherpad later | 03:57 |
| Wenzhi | time is running out... | 03:57 |
| mkrai | +1 sudipto | 03:57 |
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| sudipto | ok i think we had a good open discussion today. I think defining the project scope and the right scope is tougher but at the same time important to have a strong base. | 03:58 |
| sudipto | but i am sure we will get there! | 03:58 |
| yanyanhu | +1 sudipto | 03:58 |
| hongbin | Yes, the homework for everyone is to review the therpads above | 03:58 |
| yanyanhu | debating is not bad thing :) | 03:59 |
| mkrai | It is always helpful | 03:59 |
| hongbin | yes | 03:59 |
| mkrai | Thanks everyone for joininh | 03:59 |
| hongbin | All, thanks for joining the meeting | 03:59 |
| namrata | Thanks | 03:59 |
| yanyanhu | thanks | 03:59 |
| hongbin | #endmeeting | 03:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 03:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 03:59:34 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 03:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-21-03.00.html | 03:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-21-03.00.txt | 03:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-21-03.00.log.html | 03:59 |
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| sudipto | mkrai, you are not in the openstack-zun channel? | 04:03 |
| mkrai | sudipto: joining | 04:03 |
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| sudipto | mkrai, ok :) | 04:04 |
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| loquacities | hi everyone, kicking off the docs install guide meeting in a few minutes | 05:57 |
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| AJaeger | great, loquacities ! | 05:59 |
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| loquacities | #startmeeting docinstallteam | 06:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 06:01:05 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 06:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 06:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docinstallteam' | 06:01 |
| loquacities | hi, who's here? | 06:01 |
| AJaeger | o/ | 06:01 |
| strigazi | Spyros Trigazi (magnum) | 06:01 |
| loquacities | hi strigazi | 06:01 |
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| AJaeger | welcome, strigazi | 06:02 |
| strigazi | hi | 06:02 |
| loquacities | anyone else? | 06:03 |
| loquacities | katomo? | 06:03 |
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| katomo | hi! | 06:04 |
| loquacities | ah ha! | 06:05 |
| loquacities | ok, i think we can call that a quorum ;) | 06:05 |
| katomo | :) | 06:05 |
| loquacities | i don't have very much to go through | 06:05 |
| AJaeger | I would like to discuss the index page | 06:05 |
| loquacities | #topic Completed projects | 06:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Completed projects (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:05 | |
| loquacities | #info Orchestration, Trove, and Zaqar are done | 06:05 |
| loquacities | AJaeger: yep, that's on the agenda :) | 06:05 |
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| loquacities | and it seems swift is on the way, too | 06:06 |
| AJaeger | http://docs.openstack.org/project-install-guide/database/draft/ and http://docs.openstack.org/project-install-guide/orchestration/draft/ are published | 06:06 |
| katomo | yay! | 06:06 |
| loquacities | yeah, real progress :) | 06:06 |
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| AJaeger | Zaqar is ready, just needs one change to merge (any!) and afterwards gets published. Infra change just merged | 06:06 |
| AJaeger | swift change is under review | 06:07 |
| loquacities | excellent :) | 06:07 |
| loquacities | #topic Draft index page | 06:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Draft index page (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:07 | |
| loquacities | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/331704 | 06:07 |
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| loquacities | so i think we need to discuss how we want this to look | 06:07 |
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| AJaeger | and there are changes for magnum and manila for review | 06:08 |
| loquacities | personally, i like AJaeger's idea of having them all in one index | 06:08 |
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| katomo | +1 for all in one index | 06:08 |
| AJaeger | My idea is basically: Have one index page per version and link to that from the front pages | 06:08 |
| loquacities | yep, i think that's the best | 06:08 |
| katomo | agree | 06:08 |
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| strigazi | I like it too | 06:09 |
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| AJaeger | So, one index that looks like what we have today: It includes *all* Install material: Keystone, Glance, trove, zaqar, etc. | 06:09 |
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| loquacities | ok, to petr's other point about calling the project-specific guides 'tutorials' as well, i didn't really like that idea | 06:09 |
| AJaeger | And that one is version dependent - so should now go into draft directory | 06:09 |
| AJaeger | loquacities: there's some consistency with his proposal | 06:09 |
| loquacities | yep, and be published for newton | 06:09 |
| loquacities | yeah, i guess so | 06:10 |
| loquacities | but these really are install guides in the true sense, i think | 06:10 |
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| loquacities | whereas we would never expect someone to run a production cloud using the method in the original book | 06:10 |
| AJaeger | For me those are on the same level... | 06:10 |
| AJaeger | At least with current content | 06:10 |
| loquacities | hrm, ok | 06:11 |
| loquacities | i guess we really don't expect someone to run a production cloud using *any* manual install, really | 06:11 |
| loquacities | now i think about it ... | 06:11 |
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| AJaeger | I agree | 06:11 |
| strigazi | I think these manual are like a guide on what are the most important configs and what you should adapt on your solution | 06:12 |
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| loquacities | ok, so the index page would have the usual manual install 'tutorials', and then a link to the project-specific index? | 06:13 |
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| AJaeger | loquacities: I would even add links to the chapters of the normal install-guide: Keystone, Glance etc. | 06:13 |
| AJaeger | Having all of them together in one place gives the illusion of one guide... | 06:13 |
| loquacities | oh, that's a good idea | 06:13 |
| AJaeger | and then we would only link to that index page.... | 06:14 |
| loquacities | yeah, i think we need that | 06:14 |
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| katomo | AJaeger: +1 | 06:14 |
| strigazi | +1 | 06:14 |
| loquacities | it would definitely be easier for linkign | 06:14 |
| loquacities | linking* | 06:14 |
| AJaeger | I guess we need a few iterations on that... | 06:14 |
| loquacities | yeah, i think so | 06:14 |
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| AJaeger | Then each chapter can say at the end: Go back to this central index page ... | 06:14 |
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| loquacities | +1 | 06:14 |
| loquacities | ok, i might ping petr with the log of this chat, so he's aware | 06:15 |
| katomo | +1 | 06:15 |
| loquacities | #action loquacities to ping petr regarding https://review.openstack.org/#/c/331704 | 06:15 |
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| strigazi | Open discussion? | 06:18 |
| loquacities | yep, looks like it's time to move on | 06:18 |
| loquacities | #topic open discussion | 06:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)" | 06:19 | |
| strigazi | I want to share our WIP https://review.openstack.org/#/c/315165/ | 06:19 |
| katomo | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326190/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326193/ need approval :) | 06:19 |
| loquacities | strigazi: yay! | 06:20 |
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| loquacities | strigazi: did you see i updated the steps in the contributor guide? i'd like your feedback | 06:20 |
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| AJaeger | loquacities: I have already blessed katomo's changes - could you review them as well, please? | 06:20 |
| loquacities | yep, will do now | 06:20 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: great, thanks | 06:21 |
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| katomo | strigazi: looks great work | 06:21 |
| strigazi | thanks | 06:21 |
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| strigazi | one question | 06:21 |
| strigazi | heat has a file for every distro | 06:21 |
| strigazi | could we have a file setup-db.rst and include it in all files? | 06:22 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: see how I've done it for trove | 06:22 |
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| AJaeger | strigazi: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330540/3/install-guide/source/common_prerequisites.txt | 06:23 |
| AJaeger | and then an include of it in several places | 06:23 |
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| katomo | yeah, good practice. let's add it to cokkiecutter :) | 06:24 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: if that's a model to follow, changes for the cookiecutter are welcome;) | 06:24 |
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| strigazi | That's what I was thinking | 06:24 |
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| loquacities | good plan | 06:24 |
| loquacities | ok, any other items? | 06:25 |
| strigazi | off topic question for andreas | 06:25 |
| AJaeger | who will do the change for the cookiecutter? strigazi do you want to do it? Or katomo ? | 06:25 |
| katomo | nothing from me today | 06:25 |
| strigazi | I'll do it | 06:25 |
| AJaeger | thanks, strigazi. | 06:25 |
| katomo | strigazi, thanks. | 06:25 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: ask, it's open discussion ;) | 06:25 |
| strigazi | AJaeger: suse packages are drawn from openstack-packages? | 06:26 |
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| AJaeger | strigazi: yes, AFAIK. | 06:26 |
| strigazi | magnum has suse packages for mitaka, these are synced from openstack-pakcages/magnum? | 06:26 |
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| strigazi | ok | 06:26 |
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| * AJaeger just checks | 06:27 | |
| strigazi | and can I build suse packages form deloean? | 06:27 |
| strigazi | *from | 06:27 |
| loquacities | delorean is fedora, isn't it? | 06:28 |
| AJaeger | there are magnum packages published at http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Cloud:/OpenStack:/Master/openSUSE_Leap_42.1/noarch/ | 06:28 |
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| AJaeger | and http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Cloud:/OpenStack:/Mitaka/openSUSE_Leap_42.1/ | 06:28 |
| strigazi | cool! | 06:28 |
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| AJaeger | sources at https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Cloud:OpenStack:Master/openstack-magnum | 06:29 |
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| AJaeger | strigazi: feel free to ping me if you need more pointers and I get you in contact with our packging experts | 06:29 |
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| strigazi | Since there are recent builds, that will do | 06:30 |
| loquacities | cool, anything else? | 06:30 |
| strigazi | AJaeger: thanks | 06:30 |
| AJaeger | strigazi: thanks for documenting magnum! | 06:31 |
| loquacities | +1 | 06:31 |
| AJaeger | loquacities: nothing from my side for today | 06:31 |
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| strigazi | I'm good | 06:32 |
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| loquacities | ok, i think we're done | 06:32 |
| loquacities | #endmeeting | 06:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 06:32 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 06:32:45 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 06:32 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-21-06.01.html | 06:32 |
| loquacities | thanks guys :) | 06:32 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-21-06.01.txt | 06:32 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-21-06.01.log.html | 06:32 |
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| katomo | thanks, strigazi, loquacities, AJaeger | 06:33 |
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| yuval | #startmeeting Smaug | 09:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 09:01:11 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yuval. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'smaug' | 09:01 |
| yuval | Hello everybody | 09:01 |
| oshidoshi | hola! | 09:01 |
| xiangxinyong | hello | 09:01 |
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| zhangshuai | hello yuval | 09:01 |
| chenpengzi__ | hi | 09:01 |
| zhonghua-lee | hi | 09:01 |
| oshidoshi | Saggi is out today, Yuval has agreed to take over | 09:01 |
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| gampel | Hi | 09:01 |
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| yuval | #topic Smaug Big-Tent | 09:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Smaug Big-Tent (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:02 | |
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| yuval | Well, as you all know, Smaug was admitted as a Big-Tent | 09:02 |
| yuval | Congratulations, and thank you all for you hard work | 09:03 |
| xiangxinyong | :). | 09:03 |
| oshidoshi | incredible work everyone!!!! | 09:03 |
| zhonghua-lee | Congratulations | 09:03 |
| zhangshuai | Congratulations | 09:03 |
| yuval | That being said, we still have more on our path | 09:04 |
| yuval | #topic Testing | 09:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Testing (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:04 | |
| yuval | zhangshuai did very good job on fullstack tests | 09:04 |
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| yuval | last week we managed to make the fullstack tests run on the jenkins check | 09:04 |
| xiangxinyong | good news | 09:05 |
| zhangshuai | thanks for approval | 09:05 |
| chenying__ | I think we should pay more attention to list checkpoints patch. It have block several fullstack tests. | 09:05 |
| zhonghua-lee | zhangshuai: thanks | 09:05 |
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| chenying__ | zhangshuai good job. | 09:05 |
| yuval | please make sure you write fullstack tests for new features, besides the normal unit tests | 09:05 |
| gampel | I think that we should disable the quota on the fullstack devstack , it will reach the limit soon when we add more test | 09:05 |
| yuval | chenying__: yes, I'll get to that in a couple of minutes | 09:06 |
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| yuval | anyone would like to add something regarding the tests? | 09:06 |
| chenying__ | Hi eran Long time no see. | 09:06 |
| gampel | hi how are you ? | 09:07 |
| chenying__ | I am fine :) | 09:07 |
| yuval | #topic Patches and Reviews | 09:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Patches and Reviews (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:07 | |
| yuval | As chenying__ has pointed out, the 'list_checkpoint' patch requires reviews | 09:07 |
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| gampel | can you please share the link | 09:07 |
| yuval | Also, zengchen patches to the operation engine require more review | 09:07 |
| yuval | gampel: sure | 09:08 |
| chenying__ | luobing is updating this patch to fix fullstack error. | 09:08 |
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| yuval | #link https://review.openstack.org/310710 | 09:08 |
| zengchen | yuval:totally agree. | 09:08 |
| zengchen | yuval:thanks | 09:08 |
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| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/smaug-dashboard+status:open | 09:08 |
| chenying__ | yuval: Yes I think so. | 09:08 |
| yuval | So please dedicate some of your time for reviewing them | 09:09 |
| xiangxinyong | also dashboard has a lots of patches which need be reviewed | 09:09 |
| yuval | xiangxinyong: thanks for pointing that out | 09:09 |
| xiangxinyong | yuval: you are welcome | 09:09 |
| yuval | Also, if you think that some patches are high priority, add them to the Trello and mark them with a red label | 09:09 |
| xiangxinyong | ok | 09:10 |
| gampel | 310710 is in merge conflict | 09:10 |
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| yuval | Make sure you don't submit patches with DOS endlines (\r\n) - only UNIX endlines (\n) | 09:10 |
| yuval | Anything else regarding patches and reviews? | 09:11 |
| zengchen | yuval:will you merge your new design? | 09:11 |
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| yuval | zengchen: yes, after the fullstack patches will be merged | 09:12 |
| zengchen | yuval:ok. good! | 09:12 |
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| yuval | #topic Welcome oshidoshi | 09:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Welcome oshidoshi (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:12 | |
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| oshidoshi | oh, that's a nice topic | 09:13 |
| * oshidoshi blushing | 09:13 | |
| yuval | I would also like to welcome oshidoshi! | 09:13 |
| xiangxinyong | welcome | 09:13 |
| chenying__ | welcone | 09:13 |
| zhonghua-lee | oshidoshi: welcome | 09:13 |
| oshidoshi | thanks guys | 09:13 |
| xiangxinyong | oshidoshi: could you introduce yourself? | 09:13 |
| xiangxinyong | :) | 09:13 |
| gampel | he is also known as Eshed | 09:13 |
| xiangxinyong | :) | 09:13 |
| chenpengzi__ | :) | 09:14 |
| oshidoshi | okay, Oshidoshi was a joke during the OpenStack Tokyo summit | 09:14 |
| zhangshuai | welcome | 09:14 |
| zhonghua-lee | gampel: oh.. | 09:14 |
| oshidoshi | now I carry this cross on my back... hmm.. IRC | 09:14 |
| xiangxinyong | do you like this name? | 09:14 |
| xiangxinyong | :) | 09:14 |
| oshidoshi | well... what can I say.. a name's a name | 09:14 |
| yuval | :) | 09:15 |
| zengchen | good name! | 09:15 |
| oshidoshi | anyways, let's move on to the next topic..? | 09:15 |
| yuval | #topic Launchpad Bugs | 09:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Launchpad Bugs (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:15 | |
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| yuval | I started to review the launchpad bugs | 09:15 |
| yuval | some of them are very old, and might be irrelevant | 09:15 |
| yuval | please take a moment to check your old bugs | 09:15 |
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| yuval | and close/update them | 09:16 |
| zengchen | yuval:got it. | 09:16 |
| yuval | also, if you have old patches which are no longer relevant, abandon them | 09:16 |
| oshidoshi | I've been doing a little review on the dashboard patches, looks like people are not looking there enough... | 09:17 |
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| oshidoshi | is that your way of saying "we don't like javascript"? :-D | 09:17 |
| zhonghua-lee | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/310023/ | 09:17 |
| zhonghua-lee | how about this patch? | 09:17 |
| zhonghua-lee | anyone works on it | 09:18 |
| yuval | Now I recall that we said maybe to hold it a bit until the new design is merged | 09:18 |
| yuval | But the network protectable needs to enter | 09:19 |
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| xiangxinyong | oshidoshi: agree with you. but we love javascript. :) | 09:19 |
| yuval | https://review.openstack.org/305522 | 09:19 |
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| gampel | chenhuayi: is here ? | 09:19 |
| zhonghua-lee | looks no update for a long time | 09:20 |
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| gampel | I think that the network protection plugin is very impotent and what will drive other to join , it is a major differentiation | 09:21 |
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| chenying__ | As I konw He have finished the neutron plugin. | 09:21 |
| yuval | chenying__: seems like it is not in the gerrit | 09:22 |
| yuval | chenying__: there is only an old verion of it | 09:22 |
| chenhuayi | @gampel, I have finished debug the neutron plugin. now working on the patch. | 09:22 |
| yuval | chenhuayi: great | 09:22 |
| gampel | chenhuayi: thx excellent, :-D | 09:23 |
| yuval | Ok, lets move on | 09:23 |
| yuval | #topic Documentation | 09:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Documentation (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:23 | |
| chenhuayi | there will be three patchs. | 09:23 |
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| yuval | Before the big tent submission, we did some documentation effort | 09:23 |
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| yuval | After the merge of the protection plugin new design | 09:24 |
| yuval | We'll need a guide for writing protection plugins | 09:24 |
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| yuval | Meanwhile, we can create guides for protectable plugins and bank plugins | 09:24 |
| zhonghua-lee | yuval: +1 | 09:25 |
| yuval | Anyone would like to take writing such guide (bank, protectable) ? | 09:25 |
| yuval | it is not high priority, imo | 09:26 |
| chenying__ | You can add these tasks to trllo. | 09:26 |
| yuval | Ok, I'll add them to the Trello | 09:26 |
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| xiangxinyong | https://trello.com/b/Sudr4fKT/smaug | 09:27 |
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| yuval | Ok | 09:28 |
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| yuval | So think about it | 09:28 |
| zhonghua-lee | "Your browser was unable to load all of Trello's resources." :( | 09:28 |
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| yuval | It shouldn't be much work and it is low priority. I'll add to the trello, assign to yourself if you take it | 09:29 |
| yuval | #topic Open Discussion | 09:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Smaug)" | 09:29 | |
| yuval | Anything else you want to talk about? | 09:29 |
| zhonghua-lee | yuval: yeah | 09:29 |
| zhonghua-lee | I want to present the app backup solution here | 09:29 |
| zengchen | I have a question, when we use keystone client to fetch the service's endpoint, such as nova, cinder, if the keystone don't retrun the endpoint in the token because of configuration, how to solve the problem? | 09:30 |
| yuval | zhonghua-lee: sure | 09:30 |
| oshidoshi | zengchen: what do you mean? | 09:30 |
| zhonghua-lee | anyone consider how Smaug to support the application backup? e.g. DB, such as Oracle | 09:30 |
| zhonghua-lee | and others apps, such as sharepoint.... | 09:31 |
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| oshidoshi | zhonghua-lee: that's a tough question... I think from Smaug's point of view, we need to see that the APIs can accommodate 3rd party backup solutions for the above | 09:31 |
| zhonghua-lee | what I know, some backup software has his own method | 09:31 |
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| oshidoshi | specifically about Sharepoint, it's a little problematic, since it's a Windows-based software | 09:32 |
| yuval | zengchen: that is a good question. What if the protectable just doesn't list the resources? | 09:32 |
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| zengchen | <oshidoshi>:I mean, how to get the endpoint of other service in the smaug. we know keystone may not return the catalog in the token. | 09:32 |
| zhonghua-lee | also some of the backup software suppoort his policy. | 09:32 |
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| chenying__ | application backup, some backup software maybe have its own scheduler/policy. | 09:33 |
| oshidoshi | zehngchen: okay, here's a thought... | 09:33 |
| zhonghua-lee | oshidoshi: I mean do we consider to pass the policy to the plun-in directly? | 09:33 |
| oshidoshi | what if we add some validation on the response, e.g. if there's a VM instance, we expect also a Volume and Image protectables... | 09:33 |
| oshidoshi | so, if we don't get them from Keystone, we can send some warning to the user, like "VM without Volume" or "VM without Image", etc. | 09:34 |
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| oshidoshi | zhonghua-lee: I'm not sure I follow what you propose... maybe take it offline, or discuss over some BP... | 09:34 |
| zhonghua-lee | oshidoshi: ok. | 09:35 |
| yuval | Anything else? | 09:35 |
| oshidoshi | who's coming to OpenStack Day Beijing? | 09:35 |
| zengchen | oshidoshi: in the smaug we need create other service's client, so we should get the endpoint first. | 09:36 |
| zhonghua-lee | oshidoshi: I think I will be there. | 09:36 |
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| oshidoshi | Anyone else planning to come there? | 09:37 |
| oshidoshi | Yuval? | 09:37 |
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| yuval | Me | 09:37 |
| yuval | :) | 09:37 |
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| zhonghua-lee | yuval: see you... | 09:37 |
| yuval | chenying__: are you coming? | 09:37 |
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| chenying__ | yuval: yes I will | 09:38 |
| zengchen | oshidoshi:maybe we should solve the problem, not just seed warning. | 09:38 |
| oshidoshi | zengchen: if we can solve the problem by ourselves, fine. but what if the user did not set it up correctly? | 09:38 |
| zengchen | oshidoshi:yes, that's another good way. but first we should solve it. | 09:39 |
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| oshidoshi | zengchen: okay, we can discuss this after the meeting, I need to get better grasp on the scenario | 09:40 |
| zengchen | oshidoshi: ok, thank you. | 09:40 |
| yuval | Anything else? | 09:41 |
| oshidoshi | nope | 09:41 |
| oshidoshi | zengchen: you're welcome | 09:41 |
| yuval | Thank you all :) | 09:41 |
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| yuval | #endmeeting | 09:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 09:41 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 09:41:34 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 09:41 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-21-09.01.html | 09:41 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-21-09.01.txt | 09:41 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-21-09.01.log.html | 09:41 |
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| yanyanhu | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 13:00:32 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yanyanhu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
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| yanyanhu | hi | 13:00 |
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| haiwei | hi | 13:00 |
| elynn | hi~~ | 13:00 |
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| yanyanhu | qiming is not here for family reason, so I will hold this meeting today | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | :) | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | hi, haiwei , elynn | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | will wait for a minute for other attender | 13:01 |
| haiwei | ok | 13:01 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, lets start | 13:02 |
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| yanyanhu | please check the agenda and item you want to discuss :) | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda#Weekly_Senlin_.28Clustering.29_meeting | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | #topic newton workitems | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "newton workitems (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:02 | |
| yanyanhu | lets quick go through the etherpad | 13:02 |
| rossella_s | hi :) | 13:02 |
| elynn | okay | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems | 13:03 |
| elynn | welcome rossella_s | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | hi, rossella_s | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | the first item is tempest test | 13:03 |
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| yanyanhu | tempest API test is almost done I think | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, I think it is? | 13:03 |
| elynn | yes | 13:03 |
| yanyanhu | for both positive and negative cases | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | nice :) | 13:04 |
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| elynn | Saw you add release note | 13:04 |
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| elynn | We can move on to functional test and integration test | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | yes. If there is any case missing, plz feel free to propose patch for it :) | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | the next step is migrating existing functional test to tempest | 13:04 |
| yanyanhu | I think some existing functional test cases will be removed since they are duplicated with tempest API tests | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | will start to work on it | 13:05 |
| elynn | yes, a lot of them. | 13:05 |
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| yanyanhu | yea | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | since our tempest API test is very complete I think :) | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | any thing else about tempest test? | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | Performance Test | 13:06 |
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| yanyanhu | actually no much progress this week... | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | just merged the rally plugin for cluster-resize | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | so now we have rally plugin support for cluster create/delete/resize | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | we can do some basic benchmarking now | 13:07 |
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| yanyanhu | I think eldon is not here | 13:07 |
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| yanyanhu | hope these plugins can provide some help for their test work | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | BTW, these plugins still stay in senlin repo | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | contribute them to rally repo is the plan | 13:08 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, HA topic | 13:08 |
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| yanyanhu | umm, Qiming is not here | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | xinhui, are you around? | 13:08 |
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| yanyanhu | guess no... | 13:09 |
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| yanyanhu | elynn, haiwei , do u guys have another thing want to discuss about this topic? | 13:09 |
| haiwei | no | 13:09 |
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| elynn | no | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | ok, lets skip it | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | profile | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | for container support | 13:10 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, any thing new :) | 13:10 |
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| yanyanhu | I noticed you proposed some patches to add docker driver | 13:10 |
| yanyanhu | and the profile support as well | 13:10 |
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| yanyanhu | https://review.openstack.org/331947 | 13:11 |
| yanyanhu | this is the latest one | 13:11 |
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| yanyanhu | and this one has been merged | 13:11 |
| yanyanhu | https://review.openstack.org/322692 | 13:11 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei, there? | 13:12 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, lets move on and maybe go back later | 13:12 |
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| elynn | okay | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | ah, zaqar support | 13:13 |
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| yanyanhu | hasn't started I guess | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | not sure anyone has plan to work on it | 13:13 |
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| elynn | welcome back haiwei :) | 13:16 |
| haiwei | dropped just now | 13:16 |
| haiwei | yes | 13:16 |
| haiwei | :) | 13:16 |
| elynn | yanyanhu, just ask you about container support progress :) | 13:16 |
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| haiwei | I added container create/delete driver this week | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | if not, will try to spend some time on it after functional test migration is done | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | it's on our roadmap of newton release | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | should finish it | 13:17 |
| haiwei | hope you can review it | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | next one is notification | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | skip it as well since Qiming is not here. | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | ok, these are all items in etherpad | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | the next topic in agenda is deploying senlin-engine and senlin-api in different hosts | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | this is a problem asked by eldon zhao from cmcc | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | guess he hasn't join meeting channel | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, sure | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | will help to check it :) | 13:17 |
| elynn | wow, yanyanhu just said lots of words. | 13:17 |
| haiwei | thanks | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | I thought my network is broken :) | 13:17 |
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| yanyanhu | it is real... | 13:17 |
| haiwei | me too, yanyanhu | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | my network was broken.... | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | I'm using proxy at home | 13:18 |
| haiwei | haha, I thought it was my network's problem | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | the proxy is setup in softlayer | 13:18 |
| elynn | eldon_, was joined. | 13:18 |
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| yanyanhu | and I have to use vpn to connect to IBM network before I can access that softlayer machine... | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | hi, eldon_ , welcome :) | 13:18 |
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| elynn | Is there any bug when deploy api and engine on different hosts? | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, I just made a test this afternoon and found it worked in my local env :) | 13:19 |
| eldon_ | yes | 13:19 |
| haiwei | I am curious about deploying api and engine on different hosts | 13:19 |
| haiwei | what does it mean? | 13:19 |
| yanyanhu | just need to be careful about two things | 13:19 |
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| eldon_ | maybe, you have configured host in senlin.conf @yanyanhu | 13:19 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, that means senlin-engine is running in a host while senlin-api is running in another host | 13:20 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, yes | 13:20 |
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| yanyanhu | the "host" option in both machines must be the same | 13:20 |
| haiwei | why do we need this feature? | 13:20 |
| eldon_ | but, i have one api and two engine. | 13:20 |
| yanyanhu | to let senlin-engine and senlin-api talk using the same rpc server | 13:20 |
| elynn | I thought rabbitmq is the only tool to connect them together. | 13:20 |
| eldon_ | how can I configure host~ | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | let me see | 13:21 |
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| yanyanhu | why you want to setup two senlin-engine services | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | and only one senlin-api services | 13:21 |
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| yanyanhu | service | 13:21 |
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| yanyanhu | if you want to add engine worker, you can configure it in senlin.conf | 13:22 |
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| haiwei | I got it, that is for some cases when nodes are too many | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | the structure of senlin is different from nova :) | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | who has one nova-api with multiple nova-compute | 13:22 |
| eldon_ | I use two engines for one api, I just want to make senlin more stronger | 13:22 |
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| yanyanhu | nova-compute is actually an agent which map request from API to VM creation | 13:23 |
| eldon_ | if one senlin-engine down, we have another engine | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, nice try :) | 13:23 |
| eldon_ | it's not like nova-compute | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | just that could not match the design :) | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, yes | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | that's the point | 13:23 |
| haiwei | what is the difference? | 13:23 |
| haiwei | nova and senlin | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | actually I guess you can setup two engines with one api | 13:23 |
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| yanyanhu | but the behavior could be unpredictable | 13:24 |
| haiwei | senlin engine is not a proxy but some workers? | 13:24 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei, I think senlin-engine is not agent like nova-compute | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | yes, I think so | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | eldon dropped... | 13:24 |
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| yanyanhu | hi, eldon_ | 13:25 |
| eldon_ | sorry to logout | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | no problem | 13:25 |
| eldon_ | yes, i am in~ | 13:25 |
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| yanyanhu | I think you can try to configure the 'host' option to let one senlin-api talk with two senlin-engines | 13:25 |
| eldon_ | can we setup two engines with one api? | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | I think so | 13:25 |
| eldon_ | how? | 13:25 |
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| yanyanhu | just I'm not 100% sure about the result | 13:25 |
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| eldon_ | this afternoon, I changed code for this. | 13:26 |
| haiwei | what is the 'host' option? | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | just set 'host' in senlin.conf in all three machines to the same value | 13:26 |
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| yanyanhu | senlin.conf, haiwei | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | and also set rabbit_host to the same one | 13:26 |
| elynn | yanyanhu, Why do we do that? | 13:26 |
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| haiwei | a IP address? | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, eldon_ want to make a try :) | 13:27 |
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| yanyanhu | to see whether that works | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, yes | 13:27 |
| eldon_ | https://github.com/EldonZhao/senlin/blob/eldon/senlin/rpc/client.py | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | rabbit_host is a ip address where rabbit server is located | 13:27 |
| eldon_ | def __init__(self): | 13:27 |
| eldon_ | self._client = messaging.get_rpc_client( | 13:27 |
| eldon_ | topic=consts.ENGINE_TOPIC, | 13:27 |
| eldon_ | version=self.BASE_RPC_API_VERSION) | 13:27 |
| haiwei | It seems we need a scheduler | 13:27 |
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| eldon_ | I removed server param, and it works | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, scheduler for? | 13:27 |
| haiwei | engines | 13:28 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, if there is only one api and one engine, you don't need to remove server param | 13:28 |
| yanyanhu | it worked in my local env | 13:28 |
| elynn | yanyanhu, I mean why do we need to set host the same in 3 machines? | 13:28 |
| haiwei | it can be random for rabbitmq to choose which engine to send request? | 13:28 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, it can be, just no necessary I guess | 13:28 |
| haiwei | yes | 13:28 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, since eldon wants one senlin-api to talk with two senlin-engines at the same time | 13:29 |
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| yanyanhu | so we need to ensure all three of them interact with each other using the same rpc server.topic | 13:29 |
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| yanyanhu | which created in rabbit_host | 13:29 |
| eldon_ | our project wants senlin more stronger. | 13:29 |
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| yanyanhu | haiwei, it's broadcast | 13:29 |
| eldon_ | So we need this feature. | 13:29 |
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| yanyanhu | but only one engine can receive and handle the request from api | 13:29 |
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| elynn | I think the sever must be different? | 13:30 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, I guess we don't need to revise existing code | 13:30 |
| haiwei | really? | 13:30 |
| yanyanhu | to achieve your goal :) | 13:30 |
| elynn | multi engines is the same as multi workers | 13:30 |
| yanyanhu | let me see, elynn | 13:30 |
| elynn | I thought. | 13:30 |
| elynn | https://github.com/openstack/heat/blob/8b02644d631ea2d28b27fcc30d7b8091b002a9db/heat/rpc/listener_client.py#L37-L40 | 13:30 |
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| yanyanhu | oh, right, if the 'host' is the same for two senlin-engines | 13:30 |
| yanyanhu | I guess one of them can't start correctly | 13:30 |
| elynn | Here is the codes from heat, it just simply set server to different engine_id | 13:30 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, a little different | 13:31 |
| elynn | It's just a mark for each engine I think? | 13:31 |
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| yanyanhu | elynn, we don't do this | 13:31 |
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| yanyanhu | the server for engine service is configured using 'host' option | 13:31 |
| eldon_ | yes, not exactly the same. | 13:31 |
| yanyanhu | server of each dispatcher is the engine_id | 13:32 |
| elynn | I think that's fine. | 13:32 |
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| yanyanhu | so for senlin-engine service, all engine instances have the same tpc "server" | 13:32 |
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| eldon_ | I am a little interested about multi-workers. | 13:33 |
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| yanyanhu | that's why rpc request from senlin-api can broadcast to all of them directly | 13:33 |
| yanyanhu | sorry, broadcast is not exact word | 13:33 |
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| elynn | I got what you mean. | 13:33 |
| elynn | so eldon_'s problem is he can't get it work when one api and 2 engines on different hosts? | 13:33 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, yes, looks so | 13:33 |
| elynn | Unless delete host parameter as he said. | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | hi, eldon_ , I will make further test tomorrow to test that case | 13:34 |
| elynn | right, eldon_ ? | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | I guess it should work directly | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | but I'm not sure about it :) | 13:34 |
| elynn | We should make some unit tests for it after investigation... | 13:34 |
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| eldon_ | now I can explain again:) | 13:35 |
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| yanyanhu | based on my understanding of oslo.messaging, I guess either it works directly or one senlin-engine can't start correctly | 13:35 |
| eldon_ | we have one api + two engines. | 13:35 |
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| yanyanhu | eldon_, yes | 13:35 |
| eldon_ | one engine is deployed in api's server, and other one in other server. | 13:35 |
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| elynn | sorry let you explain again, I'm listening | 13:35 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:36 |
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| eldon_ | I find that, if we don't configure host in senlin.conf, api will always call engine in its server | 13:36 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, that's true since default 'host' is the host name of your machine :) | 13:37 |
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| eldon_ | because, if host isn't configured, it will use hostname in get_rpc_client function. | 13:37 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:37 |
| yanyanhu | exactly | 13:37 |
| eldon_ | if i stop engine in api's server, it can't call engine in other server automatically. | 13:37 |
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| yanyanhu | eldon_, yes | 13:38 |
| elynn | because api can't resolve the hostname? | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | since by default, rpc call will be send to 'server1.topic' | 13:38 |
| eldon_ | if I remove server param in get_rpc_client, it can automatically call engine in next engine. | 13:38 |
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| elynn | https://github.com/openstack/senlin/blob/master/senlin/common/config.py#L92 it does retrieve the hostname and set it as default. | 13:39 |
| eldon_ | because api still call engine in its host, but it has already stopped. | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, that is because after you remove 'host', rpc request will not target to all rpc server | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | with the given topic | 13:39 |
| eldon_ | yes. | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | so the correct way is configuring two senlin-engine to listen to the server rpc server :0 | 13:39 |
| yanyanhu | rather than removing rpc server parameter from rpc client of senlin-api | 13:40 |
| eldon_ | if it needs configuration, we can't add senlin-engine automatically. | 13:40 |
| elynn | eldon_, so in api host, can it ping the other server by hostname? | 13:40 |
| eldon_ | I find heat solved in the same way. | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, but that is the correct way :0 | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | :) | 13:40 |
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| yanyanhu | you can't ensure the rpc topic is unique :) | 13:40 |
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| eldon_ | topic is unique, i am sure | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | we can't ensure the rpc topic senlin engine used is unique in the rabbit_host | 13:41 |
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| eldon_ | topic is senlin | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | it's senlin-engine I guess | 13:41 |
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| eldon_ | https://github.com/EldonZhao/heat/blob/master/heat/rpc/client.py | 13:42 |
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| elynn | so the 'host' here actually means api host? | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, it's rpc server actually | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | let me find the code | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/engine/service.py#n87 | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/engine/service.py#n124 | 13:43 |
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| yanyanhu | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/cmd/engine.py#n42 | 13:44 |
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| yanyanhu | and this | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/common/consts.py#n16 | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | so we use both 'host' and 'topic' together to uniquely identify the rpc topic that a senlin-engine(may include multiple workers) listens to | 13:45 |
| eldon_ | yes. | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | and by default, the rpc request of a senlin-api will be sent to this place | 13:45 |
| elynn | okay, if it's rpc server here, then we should use rabbitmq_host option? | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | so I mean if you want two senlin-engines receive rpc request from one api, you can configure them listen to the same rpc server.topic | 13:46 |
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| yanyanhu | if it is allowed by oslo.messaging :) | 13:46 |
| elynn | So if rabbitmq and api doesn't place on one host, we must set host to rabbitmq host, right? | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | we should set "rabbit_host" to the ip of server where rabbit server is located | 13:47 |
| eldon_ | yayanhu, our cinder project uses your way to solve the problem. | 13:47 |
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| yanyanhu | host and rabbit_host are two different config options :) | 13:47 |
| eldon_ | they configure the same host in three cinder-volume servers. | 13:47 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, nice, that means oslo.messaging allows this kind of configure :) | 13:48 |
| eldon_ | yes. that's just like remove key-server.HAHA | 13:48 |
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| yanyanhu | eldon_, er, you can say that :) | 13:48 |
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| yanyanhu | since if we remove key of rpc server | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | there is risk for people who just deploy one senlin-api and one senlin-engine :) | 13:49 |
| eldon_ | But compared with nova-compute, it's not the exact way to solve it. | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | they can't get any benefit | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, exactly | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | the design is different | 13:49 |
| elynn | So if we have 2 api and one engine, what will it be... | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | nova-api know which nova-compute it is talking with always | 13:50 |
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| yanyanhu | nova-api sends requests to specific nova-compute based on scheduling result | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | not broadcast to let them compete :) | 13:50 |
| eldon_ | if we configure host of nova-compute same, vms can't build. | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | but in senlin's design, those engines will compete to get the task | 13:50 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, yes | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | I guess so | 13:51 |
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| yanyanhu | that doesn't make sense for nova :) | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | since nova has scheduler | 13:51 |
| yanyanhu | but we don't need :) | 13:51 |
| eldon_ | So, if our feature becomes complex, we can't set engine host the same with each other. | 13:51 |
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| eldon_ | yes. | 13:52 |
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| yanyanhu | by "feature becomes complex" you mean? | 13:52 |
| yanyanhu | oh, you mean send rpc request to specified senlin-engine? | 13:52 |
| yanyanhu | if so, yes | 13:52 |
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| yanyanhu | if so, we need scheduler kind of thing | 13:52 |
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| yanyanhu | to make the decision before senlin-api sends rpc request out to engine(s) | 13:53 |
| eldon_ | if we need schedule, e, we don't need~ | 13:53 |
| eldon_ | So, there is no problem now~ | 13:53 |
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| yanyanhu | but currently, I guess we don't need it for senlin-engine is not a worker doing local job in host it is staying in | 13:54 |
| eldon_ | yes. I see:) | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, so besically, there are two different designs :) | 13:54 |
| yanyanhu | for senlin-api/engie and nova-api/compute :) | 13:54 |
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| eldon_ | yes. | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, nice, plz make more tries and we can make further discussion about this topic | 13:55 |
| eldon_ | So we can make host the same to solve my problem:) | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | it's very interesting and also very important | 13:55 |
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| yanyanhu | eldon_, yes, it can be the current solution | 13:55 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, thank you so much for starting this topic, eldon_ :) | 13:56 |
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| yanyanhu | ok. last 4 minutes | 13:56 |
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| yanyanhu | for open discussion | 13:56 |
| eldon_ | Now, cmcc uses lb_policy and basic scaling policies in our project. And rally is also in use for testing. | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | #topic open discussion | 13:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:56 | |
| yanyanhu | eldon_, great | 13:56 |
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| yanyanhu | looking forward to your result and feed back :) | 13:57 |
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| yanyanhu | any question, just ping us | 13:57 |
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| yanyanhu | oh, for rally plugins, I think those ones in senlin repo works | 13:57 |
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| yanyanhu | you can have a try with latest code | 13:58 |
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| eldon_ | ok | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | :) | 13:58 |
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| yanyanhu | last two minutes | 13:58 |
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| yanyanhu | I planned to make a discussion about summit proposal | 13:58 |
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| elynn | ... | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | but I think we need to postpone it to next meeting :P | 13:59 |
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| elynn | we can talk about it in senlin channel | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | we have one more week to think :) | 13:59 |
| elynn | or propose it | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | sure | 13:59 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, that's all. thanks you guys for joining, elynn , haiwei , eldon_ | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | ttyl | 13:59 |
| elynn | thanks | 13:59 |
| elynn | good night | 13:59 |
| haiwei | thanks | 13:59 |
| yanyanhu | have a nice day | 14:00 |
| yanyanhu | good night | 14:00 |
| eldon_ | thanks a lot:) | 14:00 |
| eldon_ | night | 14:00 |
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| yanyanhu | my pleasure :) | 14:00 |
| yanyanhu | #endmeeting | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 14:00:19 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-21-13.00.html | 14:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-21-13.00.txt | 14:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-21-13.00.log.html | 14:00 |
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| ihrachys | hi neutrinos | 14:00 |
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| dasm | o/ | 14:00 |
| ihrachys | #startmeeting networking | 14:00 |
| johndperkins | hey | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 14:00:48 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ihrachys. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| mlavalle | o/ | 14:00 |
| bcafarel | hi | 14:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:00 |
| john-davidge | hi | 14:00 |
| andreas_s | o/ | 14:00 |
| hichihara | hi | 14:00 |
| amuller | hiya | 14:00 |
| haleyb | hi | 14:00 |
| hoangcx | hi | 14:01 |
| akamyshnikova | hi | 14:01 |
| annp | Hi | 14:01 |
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| namnh | hi | 14:01 |
| HenryG | o/ | 14:01 |
| sbelous_ | hi! | 14:01 |
| ihrachys | I will lead the meeting, but note that armax is probably somewhere around :) | 14:01 |
| ihrachys | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda | 14:01 |
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| yamamoto | hi | 14:01 |
| korzen | hi | 14:01 |
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| ivc_ | hi | 14:02 |
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| ihrachys | let's run thru the agenda really quick, we may have the meeting packed | 14:02 |
| ihrachys | #topic Announcements | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:02 | |
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| ihrachys | just repeating what HenryG said the prev meeting... | 14:02 |
| ihrachys | The mid-cycle is August 17-19 in Cork, Ireland. | 14:02 |
| ihrachys | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-neutron-midcycle | 14:02 |
| ihrachys | please register if you go | 14:02 |
| ihrachys | any more announcements? | 14:02 |
| ihrachys | nope, moving on :) | 14:03 |
| ajo | o/ | 14:03 |
| obondarev | o/ | 14:03 |
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| ihrachys | I expect blueprints to take a vast slot in the meeting, so let's move them to later. | 14:03 |
| ihrachys | #topic Bugs | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:03 | |
| ihrachys | the prev week the deputy was dasm | 14:04 |
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| ihrachys | dasm: any highlights? | 14:04 |
| dasm | yep. | 14:04 |
| dasm | week was pretty calm. | 14:04 |
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| dasm | we had two gate issues | 14:04 |
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| dasm | one with neutron-lbaas which broke neutron gates | 14:05 |
| dasm | and other, fixed by ihrachys | 14:05 |
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| dasm | right now everything seems to be under control | 14:05 |
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| ihrachys | thanks | 14:05 |
| dasm | this week, bug deputy is john-davidge | 14:05 |
| ihrachys | we have more gate failures | 14:05 |
| ihrachys | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=gate-failure | 14:05 |
| john-davidge | o/ | 14:06 |
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| john-davidge | Yes, there are a couple of gate failures so far this week | 14:06 |
| john-davidge | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1594796 Is the most recent | 14:06 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1594796 in neutron "test_api_extension_validation_with_good_dns_names fails with 500 error" [Critical,Confirmed] | 14:06 |
| ihrachys | right. that one I think is looked at by pavel-bondar right now. but other l3 folks are welcome to assist. | 14:06 |
| carl_baldwin | I just noticed it. I'm looking in to it also. | 14:07 |
| john-davidge | We also have #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1594376 which appears to be more intermittent | 14:07 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1594376 in neutron "Delete subnet fails with "ObjectDeletedError: Instance '<IPAllocation at 0x7f6abc3abe50>' has been deleted, or its row is otherwise not present."" [High,Confirmed] | 14:07 |
| ihrachys | thanks carl_baldwin | 14:07 |
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| ihrachys | carl_baldwin: are you aware of that one? | 14:08 |
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| ihrachys | in logstash, I see 33 hits in last 7 days | 14:08 |
| mlavalle | ihrachys, carl_baldwin: also looking | 14:08 |
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| carl_baldwin | I am now. :) | 14:08 |
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| ihrachys | ok good. let's own the gate. | 14:08 |
| carl_baldwin | I will look in to it once the first is resolved. | 14:08 |
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| * carl_baldwin owning it. :) | 14:09 | |
| ihrachys | :) | 14:09 |
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| ihrachys | #topic Docs | 14:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:09 | |
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| ihrachys | I haven't seen Sam-I-Am for a while | 14:09 |
| ihrachys | I wonder whether he moved to greener pastures ;) | 14:10 |
| ihrachys | anyone willing to update on behalf of docs subteam? | 14:10 |
| haleyb | he does moo a lot :) | 14:10 |
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| ihrachys | ok, I guess we skip, but we need to solve the issue of no docs representation during the meeting. maybe armax will want to follow up on that. | 14:11 |
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| sc68cal | I'm around. | 14:11 |
| ihrachys | sc68cal: stage is yours. | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | I think probably the only thing to report is that Sam-I-Am is away so there's slack to be taken up | 14:13 |
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| sc68cal | i'll see if I can reach out to edgar since he's our liaison? | 14:13 |
| carl_baldwin | The weather here in Colorado is so good he might just be out enjoying it. | 14:13 |
| ihrachys | sc68cal: thanks! | 14:14 |
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| ihrachys | yeah, summers are counter productive | 14:14 |
| ihrachys | #topic Transition to OSC | 14:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Transition to OSC (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:14 | |
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| ihrachys | dasm: you have an update for OSC right? | 14:15 |
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| dasm | ihrachys: no.. i just added it to agenda, on behalf of amotoki | 14:15 |
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| rtheis | Progress continues in OSC to enhance and add networking commands | 14:16 |
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| ihrachys | dasm: ouch. I always assume that's you, since you are apparently everywhere! | 14:16 |
| rtheis | floating ip and rbac support out for review | 14:16 |
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| amuller | rtheis: can you link a resource tracking this work? | 14:17 |
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| ihrachys | rtheis: would neutron reviewers be helpful there, or you think it's better to leave it to OSC core team? | 14:17 |
| rtheis | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/osc-neutron-support | 14:17 |
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| amuller | rtheis: thank you | 14:18 |
| rtheis | ihrachys: I think OSC team is doing okay to keep up, but reviews are always welcome | 14:18 |
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| ihrachys | great to hear. | 14:18 |
| ihrachys | #topic Moving to Keystone v3 API in Neutron | 14:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Moving to Keystone v3 API in Neutron (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:19 | |
| ihrachys | dasm: now that should be your slot | 14:19 |
| dasm | ihrachys: that's me :D | 14:19 |
| dasm | yes. docs were changed and merged. | 14:19 |
| ihrachys | user docs or dev docs? | 14:19 |
| dasm | devref | 14:19 |
| dasm | it will probably require additional lookup, after db and internal code will be changed. | 14:20 |
| ihrachys | dasm: I bet we have work to do in networking guide. it's on radar right? | 14:20 |
| dasm | to update it, and notify all developer changes | 14:20 |
| dasm | ihrachys: yes, i have this also in my mind. | 14:20 |
| ihrachys | dasm: do we have mergeable reviews in neutron repos for the feature? | 14:21 |
| dasm | not yet. i'm working on offline db migrations | 14:21 |
| dasm | to change column names | 14:21 |
| ihrachys | ok, enjoy :) | 14:21 |
| dasm | :D | 14:22 |
| ihrachys | now, I'd like to get back to the blueprints section we skipped before, but before I do... | 14:22 |
| ihrachys | #topic Review velocity | 14:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review velocity (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:22 | |
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| ihrachys | armax: wanna cover that one? | 14:22 |
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| ihrachys | :D | 14:23 |
| ihrachys | ok, I guess I will need to communicate that one myself | 14:23 |
| ihrachys | basically, armax have some concerns about how we do reviews, both quantitatively as well as qualitatively | 14:24 |
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| ihrachys | for the former, it's as simple as: neutron core reviewers don't seem to keep up with the patch load, and some don't seem to try | 14:24 |
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| ihrachys | for the latter, it's more about focus on targeted features, not quality of particular reviews per se | 14:25 |
| hichihara | :p | 14:25 |
| ihrachys | the team seems to be quite distributed (or scattered, depending on your perspective) and does not seem to have a common focus | 14:26 |
| njohnston | Hopefully the mid-cycle will help focus everyone | 14:26 |
| ihrachys | that's in drastic comparison to e.g. nova team that is very focused (maybe more than you would like) | 14:26 |
| amuller | The dashboard rossella initiated should probably be mentioned at this point, linked from http://status.openstack.org/reviews/ | 14:27 |
| dasm | njohnston: yeah, but midcycle is pretty late. | 14:27 |
| ihrachys | njohnston: midcycle is a single week long event only, it doesn't tackle the culprit. also it's targeted to IRL participants | 14:27 |
| njohnston | true | 14:27 |
| ihrachys | amuller: that's a great notice, and yes, I actually wanted to mention it | 14:28 |
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| john-davidge | Perhaps this can be articulated in detail on the ML? | 14:28 |
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| ajo | that's right, we should focus on making use our gerrit dashboard as a primary source | 14:28 |
| ihrachys | john-davidge: that's part of the deal. but it would be great if we run it here first. | 14:28 |
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| ihrachys | I would ask current core reviewers, what could help us to stick to common causes, and overall, bump review stats? | 14:29 |
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| amuller | We try to go through new RFEs in the drivers meeting | 14:30 |
| ihrachys | there is a significant number of patches in the review queue that does not seem to be taken care by review team as much as you could expect. is it because we target wrong things that no one cares? or everyone is too busy with specific bits they already have on plates? | 14:30 |
| amuller | but we don't have recurring meetings to track ongoing work | 14:30 |
| ihrachys | amuller: in a way, the meeting like the one today are supposed to be used for that, too | 14:30 |
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| amuller | ihrachys: Aye, it's not a crazy idea IMO to add a section to this meeting, or to start a new recurring meeting for cores and anyone interested to track ongoing work, see if there's high priority items that are stuck and not getting reviews | 14:31 |
| ajo | may be we should keep a section on the meeting for this purpose | 14:31 |
| ihrachys | ajo: there is actually one for blueprints. | 14:31 |
| ajo | and ping the people responsible for the things that are starving reviews | 14:32 |
| ihrachys | but maybe the time slot we have for neutron team meetings is just not enough to cover anything in details. | 14:32 |
| ihrachys | ajo: how do you determine who is responsible? | 14:32 |
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| ajo | yeah, first one, is the assigned reviewer to an RFE, | 14:32 |
| amuller | ihrachys: armax said a while ago that each blueprint should have an approver or a responsible core | 14:32 |
| ihrachys | we have approvers in LP blueprints, but no approvers for RFEs and bugs. | 14:32 |
| ajo | if it's not an RFE, and it's a bug, then , the core reviewers of the specific area? | 14:32 |
| ajo | maY be we could automate that | 14:33 |
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| ajo | may be we could add some sort of tag to bug description to specify who may be doing reviews on that bug ? | 14:34 |
| ihrachys | I would suggest we don't target anything that does not have at least two cores + backup to drive the feature. it may reduce the number of targeted features, but that would just reflect the reality where 80% of things we target right now will not probably happen this cycle. | 14:34 |
| ajo | it's a bit of micromanagement may be, but, it's a way to make sure people get a more prioritized review inbox | 14:34 |
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| ihrachys | ajo: a comment in LP may be good enough to have people responsible. | 14:34 |
| ihrachys | ajo: or you mean, we generate personalized gerrit dashes? | 14:35 |
| ajo | ihrachys, I personally cope very bad with all the amount of email my inbox receives, specially bug notifications, even if I try to keep up with reading them all... | 14:35 |
| ihrachys | that would probably be hard to maintain | 14:35 |
| ajo | ihrachys, personalized gerrit dashes | 14:35 |
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| ajo | well... to be fair | 14:36 |
| ihrachys | is the current dash that we have from rossella_s too big to digest? | 14:36 |
| ajo | we can already add people to a review | 14:36 |
| ajo | and it will show in the standard gerrit dash | 14:36 |
| ajo | (the standard : no dash) | 14:36 |
| ihrachys | yeah. the only problem I have with that is people adding random people to their patches just because they are on core team | 14:37 |
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| ihrachys | any more thoughts from other team members? do you think the way it goes is good enough? | 14:38 |
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| john-davidge | It sounds like a well documented, well focused custom dash for core reviewers could go a long way to solving some of this | 14:38 |
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| ihrachys | john-davidge: but there is already one, that shows just targeted pieces, and there are actually not that many patches there | 14:39 |
| ajo | yes, may be per-core customized links, published in shorteners. | 14:39 |
| ihrachys | who uses the dashboard from rossella_s? | 14:39 |
| ihrachys | o/ | 14:39 |
| ajo | we tag by using bug comments, or in the description | 14:39 |
| ajo | reviewers: a,b,c,d | 14:39 |
| ajo | I tend to forget using it, I only do it when my default queue drains.. | 14:40 |
| hichihara | me too ;) | 14:40 |
| ihrachys | ajo: does it happen? I mean, the queue drain? | 14:41 |
| ajo | ihrachys, almost never TBH, just sometimes | 14:41 |
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| ajo | so, this is, why in my case, I should probably switch the priority around | 14:41 |
| ihrachys | so that's the point. unless you say no to untargeted stuff, it just sneaks into your mind | 14:41 |
| ajo | true | 14:41 |
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| HenryG | easier said than done | 14:42 |
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| ihrachys | ok, I guess other cores are too shy to speak up or smth. I guess armax will need to follow up on the topic in ML anyway. | 14:42 |
| ajo | HenryG, true | 14:42 |
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| ihrachys | let's run thru some blueprints really quick | 14:43 |
| ihrachys | #topic Blueprints | 14:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:43 | |
| ihrachys | #link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/newton-2 | 14:43 |
| ihrachys | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/troubleshooting | 14:44 |
| ihrachys | amuller: does it happen in N? | 14:44 |
| ihrachys | afaik it's still in spec discussion mode | 14:44 |
| amuller | ihrachys: it's waiting for reviews on the spec | 14:44 |
| amuller | ihrachys: Hynek added a new revision today | 14:44 |
| hynekm_ | it would appreciate reviews | 14:44 |
| ihrachys | amuller: you are an approver. do you think it's ready? | 14:45 |
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| amuller | ihrachys: I haven't read the new revision from today, I last talked to Hynek last week for the new direction | 14:45 |
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| ihrachys | note that we approach N2 in several weeks. which makes chances of anything with no code patches in review quite low | 14:46 |
| ihrachys | amuller: I see armax is on review list for the spec. is there agreement? | 14:46 |
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| HenryG | Should this BP be 'High' priority? | 14:47 |
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| HenryG | I mean in relation to some of the others? | 14:47 |
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| HenryG | Perhaps in the next drivers meeting the priorities can be discussed. | 14:49 |
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| ihrachys | HenryG: that's a good idea. there is little reason to approve more RFEs while we struggle to deliver half or what we targeted. | 14:49 |
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| amuller | ihrachys: we'll see :) | 14:50 |
| ajo | I just ask to make a 2nd-pass on the qos-rules extended validation RFE, as it's a blocker for the other QoS RFEs | 14:50 |
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| ihrachys | ajo: you mean, you have more to add to what was discussed the prev drivers meeting? | 14:50 |
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| ajo | ihrachys, I added on the bug itself, I agree on the reduced scope of the RFE | 14:51 |
| ihrachys | ack | 14:51 |
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| ihrachys | next in the list is | 14:51 |
| ihrachys | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/multi-l3-backends | 14:51 |
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| ihrachys | iyamahat: that's on you. what's the status here. | 14:51 |
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| ihrachys | there is a link to a gerrit topic in LP, but it does not seem to work | 14:52 |
| ihrachys | ok, I guess we go next | 14:52 |
| ihrachys | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/push-notifications | 14:52 |
| hichihara | The feature is managed by Kevin now | 14:52 |
| ihrachys | hichihara: I see | 14:53 |
| ihrachys | that one is also on kevinbenton | 14:53 |
| ihrachys | I am approver. we landed some first patches for revision numbers already, more to come. | 14:53 |
| ihrachys | that and subnet object that korzen is working on should unblock the progress there. | 14:53 |
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| ihrachys | I think it's on good track. | 14:53 |
| ihrachys | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/vlan-aware-vms | 14:53 |
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| ihrachys | rossella_s is not here, but maybe someone else wants to update us. | 14:54 |
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| ihrachys | there's a huge queue for reviews: | 14:54 |
| ihrachys | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/vlan-aware-vms+status:open | 14:54 |
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| ihrachys | I believe we closed the nova interaction concern in the ML thread, so it's a matter of reviews. | 14:55 |
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| * ihrachys feels lonely | 14:56 | |
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| ihrachys | ok, the last one for today | 14:56 |
| ihrachys | #topic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/fwaas-api-2.0 | 14:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/fwaas-api-2.0 (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:56 | |
| hichihara | It seems there is progress but many -1 | 14:56 |
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| ihrachys | sc68cal: do you want to update on that one? | 14:56 |
| hichihara | I'm here :) | 14:56 |
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| ihrachys | I see some patches at https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/neutron-fwaas+branch:master+topic:fwaas_v2_api | 14:56 |
| ihrachys | but nothing that would land so far | 14:57 |
| njohnston | The prerequisite for that is the l3 agent extensions work | 14:57 |
| njohnston | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/315745/16 | 14:57 |
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| sc68cal | and a devstack plugin | 14:57 |
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| sc68cal | basically are people serious about fwaas? because the resources haven't really been put forward | 14:57 |
| ihrachys | njohnston: it's weird, fwaas v2 is High, but your thing is Low | 14:57 |
| njohnston | sc68cal: yes; there is work on the devstack plugin currently | 14:57 |
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| ihrachys | I believe we should bump l3 extension thing | 14:57 |
| ihrachys | sc68cal: I am good to ditch it. I was good to do it at the summit. but armax is the king. | 14:58 |
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| ihrachys | we need to decide when we do the call on removal of those repos from neutron | 14:59 |
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| ihrachys | okay, that's all for bp | 14:59 |
| ihrachys | one small thing before we end the meeting | 14:59 |
| ihrachys | #topic Other stuff | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other stuff (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:59 | |
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| ihrachys | some of you may want to know that we landed a patches for governance lately that changed the way we manage governance tags for neutron bits | 15:00 |
| ihrachys | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323522/ | 15:00 |
| ihrachys | that removed some tags like supports-upgrade from *aas repos | 15:00 |
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| hichihara | I will check | 15:00 |
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| ihrachys | which is fine since it only reflects reality (of missing grenade gating for those repos) | 15:00 |
| ihrachys | so just a heads up | 15:00 |
| ihrachys | ok, that's all. we will follow up on remaining bps next week. | 15:00 |
| ihrachys | cheers | 15:00 |
| ihrachys | #endmeeting | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 15:01:00 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:01 |
| amuller | ihrachys: Thank you | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-21-14.00.html | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-21-14.00.txt | 15:01 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-21-14.00.log.html | 15:01 |
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| annp | bye | 15:01 |
| jlibosva | bye | 15:01 |
| hichihara | bye | 15:01 |
| namnh | bye | 15:01 |
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| dasm | bye | 15:02 |
| ajo | o/ | 15:02 |
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| carl_baldwin | Hi routed networks folks | 15:02 |
| xiaohhui | hello | 15:02 |
| mlavalle | o/ | 15:02 |
| neiljerram | o/ | 15:02 |
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| john-davidge | o/ | 15:02 |
| carl_baldwin | I'm in the middle of a critical gate failure. Should we just check in really quick? | 15:03 |
| * xiaohhui agree | 15:03 | |
| john-davidge | Sure | 15:03 |
| mlavalle | ++ | 15:03 |
| carl_baldwin | #startmeeting neutron_routed_networks | 15:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 15:03:41 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is carl_baldwin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:03 | |
| blogan | hi | 15:03 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_routed_networks' | 15:03 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Open Agenda | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Agenda (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:03 | |
| carl_baldwin | We'll just start with this. | 15:04 |
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| john-davidge | I'd just like to draw attention to #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/300207/ - we need it to merge ASAP | 15:04 |
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| carl_baldwin | First, look over the etherpad and gerrit topic for reviews. | 15:04 |
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| carl_baldwin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/routed-provider-networks-notes | 15:04 |
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| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/routed-networks+status:open | 15:04 |
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| carl_baldwin | john-davidge: I'll ping kevinbenton again to have another pass. | 15:06 |
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| john-davidge | carl_baldwin: Thanks :) | 15:06 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'm still working on Nova side. I will commit to having some kind of Nova patch up this week to allow deferred IP alloc. | 15:06 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: how is DHCP going? | 15:07 |
| blogan | had the week off last week, going to push up a new patch today | 15:07 |
| blogan | though one question | 15:07 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: What's that? | 15:08 |
| blogan | kevinbenton suggested just scheduling all segments in a network, instead of just the one segment affected that the code is currently doing | 15:08 |
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| blogan | does anyone feel strongly for or against that method? | 15:09 |
| xiaohhui | I think scheduling to one segment one time is fine. | 15:10 |
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| xiaohhui | After all, we are adding one segment-subnet one time | 15:10 |
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| blogan | xiaohhui: true but it wouldn't hurt to attempt to do them all, and really it'll probably just be one that gets scheduled 99% of the time anyway if thats always done | 15:11 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: I don't feel strongly. | 15:11 |
| john-davidge | blogan: Did kevin highlight a particualr advantage to doing it that way? | 15:11 |
| blogan | i believe the advantage would be that we wouldn't have to pass specific segment information down to the scheduler from the notification code | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: That could simplify things a bit. | 15:12 |
| blogan | currently its being packed into the network dictionary so that the scheduler knows what segment is actually needing scheduling | 15:13 |
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| xiaohhui | I am adding candidates as parameter in schedule method in this patch for refactoring l3-agent-scheduler. | 15:13 |
| xiaohhui | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/320347/ | 15:13 |
| john-davidge | I'm not sure I can think of any obvious downsides of scheduling them all at once | 15:13 |
| john-davidge | So it seems fine to me | 15:14 |
| blogan | xiaohhui: could the same thing be done in your case? | 15:14 |
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| xiaohhui | I am thinking it is the same thing to pass candidates as parameter for segment scheduling. | 15:15 |
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| xiaohhui | So, it that patch is merged, I think we can avoid pullute network dict | 15:16 |
| xiaohhui | it -> if | 15:16 |
| blogan | i thought there was a reason we didn't want to change the base scheduler's arguments like that, it breaking the interface | 15:16 |
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| xiaohhui | May be we should discuss in the review of that patch... | 15:17 |
| blogan | xiaohhui: +1 | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: Let us know when you get your update posted. | 15:17 |
| blogan | carl_baldwin: will do | 15:17 |
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| carl_baldwin | Anything else to bring up? | 15:18 |
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| carl_baldwin | Please review and update the etherpad regularly. | 15:20 |
| carl_baldwin | Going once... | 15:20 |
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| carl_baldwin | Going twice... | 15:21 |
| carl_baldwin | Thanks! | 15:21 |
| carl_baldwin | #endmeeting | 15:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:22 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 15:22:06 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:22 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-21-15.03.html | 15:22 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-21-15.03.txt | 15:22 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-21-15.03.log.html | 15:22 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 17:59 |
| stevemar | courtesy ping for ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek | 18:00 |
| samueldmq | o/ | 18:00 |
| samueldmq | hi folks | 18:00 |
| rodrigods | :) | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 18:00:12 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:00 | |
| rderose | o/ | 18:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:00 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| bknudson_ | hi | 18:00 |
| nk2527 | o/ | 18:00 |
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| raildo | ٩(●̮̮̃●̃)۶ | 18:00 |
| gagehugo | hello | 18:00 |
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| jamielennox | o/ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | #link agenda https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting | 18:00 |
| crinkle | o/ | 18:01 |
| * stevemar has a full cup of tea in front of him and ready for a long meeting | 18:01 | |
| jaugustine | hello | 18:01 |
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| stevemar | #topic release status | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "release status (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| stevemar | just wanted to give a status here, we're in R15 of the schedule http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:02 |
| henrynash_ | (hi) | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | (it counts down) | 18:02 |
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| samueldmq | R-15 | 18:02 |
| samueldmq | yes | 18:02 |
| stevemar | We're between the proposal spec freeze (R18) and spec freeze (R13) | 18:02 |
| shaleh | \o | 18:02 |
| gyee | \o | 18:02 |
| stevemar | so start reviewing keystone specs :) | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | (which i also have to do...) | 18:03 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: ++ | 18:03 |
| samueldmq | for the first sentence | 18:03 |
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| samueldmq | :) | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/keystone-specs+status:open | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | handy link for open keystone specs ^ | 18:03 |
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| stevemar | thats all I have to say about that for now, thanks for listening :) | 18:04 |
| stevemar | any qs? | 18:04 |
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| stevemar | next topic | 18:04 |
| stevemar | #topic keystoneauth entry points for Kerbers and SAML2 | 18:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "keystoneauth entry points for Kerbers and SAML2 (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:05 | |
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| dolphm | kerberos* | 18:05 |
| stevemar | ayoung is not online o_O | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | dolphm with the quick -1 | 18:05 |
| rodrigods | stevemar, just appeared | 18:05 |
| stevemar | so i think this is mostly done | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: o/ | 18:05 |
| ayoung | ah had not reconnected | 18:05 |
| ayoung | I was sitting here wondering where everyone was | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | So quick one here...I think most of the auth plugin issues are solved | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | there was one with KC, have not checked with Auth, but the unscoped SAML2 plugin could never have worked. | 18:06 |
| stevemar | jamielennox did some fancy stuff with loading extras, crinkle made the kerberos stuff available and jamielennox refactored the saml bits last night | 18:06 |
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| jamielennox | yep, so i unploaded a new version of the saml refactor that i was just setting up an environment to test | 18:07 |
| jamielennox | it exposes a v3samlpassword | 18:07 |
| jamielennox | which feels like a bad name | 18:07 |
| ayoung | So the question was...if we enumerate the entrypoints, and the plugin is not loadable due to package dependencies, is that OK? Or should we wait until the user tries to load the plugin and then say "sorry, dependncy unmet" | 18:07 |
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| stevemar | jamielennox: ^ | 18:07 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: we added a thing for that | 18:08 |
| gyee | load on-demand? | 18:08 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, so enumerate will always work? | 18:08 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: there's an "available" property on loaders that can short circuit whether the plugin appears in the listing | 18:08 |
| stevemar | jamielennox ayoung i believe it'll enumerate only the available ones | 18:08 |
| gyee | why bother to load if user never intend to use that plugin | 18:08 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: so you do like ImportError checking on your dependencies, and if they are not available then you set available false on the plugin and it will get ignored | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | gyee: there are times you enumerate every plugin on the system | 18:09 |
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| dstanek | jamielennox: nice | 18:09 |
| bknudson_ | hopefully you can also avoid enumerating every plugin | 18:09 |
| gyee | jamielennox, why? | 18:09 |
| gyee | plugins should be loaded on-demand | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: example: https://github.com/openstack/keystoneauth/blob/master/keystoneauth1/extras/kerberos/_loading.py#L24 | 18:09 |
| jamielennox | gyee: it's rare, but OSC does it for options and help building | 18:10 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, so to test that you need a SAML provider? | 18:10 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: pretty much | 18:10 |
| ayoung | OK so I need to update the installer we have to work with the DLRN code, which should mirror master | 18:11 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: ayoung it'll be nice to get that refactor in early enough in the release cycle so we can fix things that may go boom | 18:11 |
| stevemar | mirror master o_O, that's a bold move | 18:11 |
| ayoung | stevemar, yeah, and we might need some backporting, too | 18:11 |
| ayoung | well...I will need to backport | 18:11 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: yeah, our backport policy may not allow for that :\ | 18:11 |
| rodrigods | stevemar, hmm isn't a bug? | 18:12 |
| samueldmq | what does 'enumerate' a plugin mean ? | 18:12 |
| ayoung | since we ship a version of KSA that syncs with what went out with Mitaka. | 18:12 |
| rodrigods | or is too huge to backport? | 18:12 |
| stevemar | rodrigods: it's a huge refactor | 18:12 |
| rodrigods | ok | 18:12 |
| ayoung | rodrigods, yeah, but we don't backport KSA and KC changes | 18:12 |
| ayoung | we just tell people to upgrade to the latest | 18:12 |
| stevemar | ayoung: sure we do, but not if they are huge refactors :) | 18:12 |
| ayoung | I am more concerned with the Federation support for scoped tokens VIa SAML | 18:12 |
| ayoung | that was broekn last summer, Jamie tells me it is fixed. I need to test that. | 18:13 |
| ayoung | Anyway...I think we are good, and can move on | 18:13 |
| stevemar | rgr | 18:13 |
| gyee | we support SAML to scoped token directly?! | 18:13 |
| ayoung | gyee, nope | 18:13 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: basically get a list of them | 18:13 |
| ayoung | gyee, there is a provider that does this | 18:13 |
| ayoung | uses saml to get unscoped token | 18:13 |
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| gyee | ayoung, we need to | 18:14 |
| ayoung | then scopes that based on what the user sets for project | 18:14 |
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| gyee | certificate for token | 18:14 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: ah ok, so just listing all of them vs listing available ones (with what jamielennox added) | 18:14 |
| samueldmq | dstanek: thanks | 18:14 |
| ayoung | but it was broken, expected a token to be passed in, not doing the rescoping itself | 18:14 |
| stevemar | gyee: i think dolphm's spec allows for that, can you help with the code or reviews? | 18:14 |
| gyee | stevemar, sure, will do | 18:14 |
| ayoung | https://adam.younglogic.com/2016/06/saml-federated-auth-plugin/ | 18:14 |
| stevemar | gyee: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/324055/ | 18:15 |
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| gyee | thank you Sir | 18:15 |
| stevemar | gyee: you haven't reviewed it yet, i think you'll like it ;) | 18:15 |
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| stevemar | alright, next topic forreals | 18:15 |
| stevemar | #topic Swift ACLs and keystone | 18:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Swift ACLs and keystone (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:15 | |
| stevemar | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-June/096712.html | 18:15 |
| stevemar | if anyone is familiar with swift ACLs, feel free to reply to that ML, it needs some love | 18:16 |
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| stevemar | that's all i really have to say about it, i don't know enough about the topic to reply | 18:16 |
| gyee | YAML instead of JSON | 18:16 |
| stevemar | if no one else does, i can research it and reply | 18:16 |
| gyee | Swift ACLs are for human consumption | 18:16 |
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| bknudson_ | I think this is embedding JSON in the URL | 18:17 |
| gyee | whaaah? | 18:17 |
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| gyee | Swift ACLs are conveyed in the headers no? | 18:17 |
| topol | o/ | 18:17 |
| stevemar | bknudson_: gyee we can chat about it in -keystone, it's not super urgent | 18:18 |
| jamielennox | so i don't understand swift ACLs, but yea the follow up message - don't use names for describing users, use ids | 18:18 |
| stevemar | just wanted to bring it to the attention of the team | 18:19 |
| gyee | correct, names are deprecated | 18:19 |
| gyee | as they are 1) not globally unique, and 2) mutable | 18:19 |
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| stevemar | henrynash_: you ready sir? | 18:20 |
| henrynash_ | yep | 18:20 |
| stevemar | next topic time | 18:20 |
| stevemar | #topic Project name constraints & project hierarchical naming | 18:20 |
| shaleh | get yer tomatoes ready | 18:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Project name constraints & project hierarchical naming (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:20 | |
| gyee | we had a long discussion about it at Paris if I remember correctly | 18:20 |
| * rodrigods gets the popcorn | 18:20 | |
| henrynash_ | ok (ducks) | 18:20 |
| stevemar | http://replygif.net/thumbnail/149.gif | 18:20 |
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| henrynash_ | so latets proposed spec is: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/ | 18:20 |
| henrynash_ | key summry block around line 150 in there that summarizes the compatibility | 18:20 |
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| henrynash_ | dolphm: I know youjust sent out some comments | 18:21 |
| henrynash_ | “ The idea of asking clients to specify project names depending on both the version of the client they're using and the microversion of the server they're using does not seem tenable in the wild, especially when there are so many custom clients out there." | 18:21 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: i appreciate the additional effort documenting the compatibility - i think it does a good job to highlight just how confusing this change will be for end users and operators :-/ | 18:21 |
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| henrynash_ | dolphm: so the no name would ever change underneath you, form a server microversion chnage | 18:22 |
| bknudson_ | I'm not sure how nova, etc. handles microversions in their python library. | 18:22 |
| stevemar | it feels like HMT will never end :( | 18:22 |
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| bknudson_ | you have to opt-in to microversions. | 18:22 |
| notmorgan | stevemar: can we just remove it? [only sort of joking] | 18:23 |
| bknudson_ | so if you don't opt-in you'll never see this | 18:23 |
| shaleh | bknudson_: they do 3 - 5 round trips to determine the version. Then they make calls based on said version | 18:23 |
| henrynash_ | dolphm: but change client versions, would cause the name to now include thepath | 18:23 |
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| gyee | 3 -5 roundtrips? ouch! | 18:23 |
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| shaleh | gyee: yeah | 18:23 |
| dolphm | this proposal represents a staggering amount of complexity with questionable, IMO, benefits | 18:24 |
| bknudson_ | shaleh: does the novaclient API change based on the version the server reports? | 18:24 |
| henrynash_ | gyee: they are meant to cache it, but not sure they do | 18:24 |
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| notmorgan | dolphm: i am still pretty much in the camp of "don't bother" and not relax the uniqueness requirements | 18:24 |
| shaleh | bknudson_: options become relevant as the version shifts | 18:24 |
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| * gyee is in the same camp as dolphm and notmorgan | 18:24 | |
| henrynash_ | dolphm: and I guess that’s the issue…if we EVER want to change this, this is about as good (?) as it gets | 18:24 |
| shaleh | henrynash_: the question is then, do we expect a customer using these names to also be using mixed version clients. | 18:25 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: that might be true | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: stevemar: I like HMT, but it seems to me we're going so quick that other services can't follow (they're still adopting hierarchical projs) | 18:25 |
| stevemar | henrynash_: so what's the end goal here? we're adding a complex naming spec and microversions for ... ? | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: it's a question of where we set the goal post | 18:25 |
| dstanek | can we add some usecases to the spec explain why it's necessary? | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: not how fast we get there. | 18:25 |
| shaleh | if a user is NOT using HMT are they affected by this? | 18:25 |
| dolphm | notmorgan: IN SPACE | 18:25 |
| stevemar | dstanek: that's what i was trying to get at :) | 18:25 |
| dstanek | stevemar: get to the point! | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | so i'm still not sure this gets around the problem, if you create a project with a 3.7 client then fetch it with a 3.6 client then does the unique constraint hold? | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: actually, i hear it's in Brazil ( olympics reference? ) | 18:26 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: even worst if we go fast and haven't defined the goal ? :-) | 18:26 |
| rodrigods | is it going to break cinder? for example/ | 18:26 |
| stevemar | i think henrynash_ is drumming up like 6 responses | 18:26 |
| henrynash_ | stevemar: the goal is t get us out ofthe limitation befiore it’s too late! | 18:26 |
| henrynash_ | shalel: and no, it won\’t affect anyone unless they are using hierchies | 18:26 |
| dstanek | right now it says we do X and to do Y we must ... and it breaks these things, but not why Y | 18:26 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: what benefit does removing this limitation provide to end users? | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | I still don't understand why this can't be a config swtich, and, if a user has two projects withthe same name (but different parents) that only is allowed if the feature is enabled | 18:27 |
| shaleh | ayoung: ++ | 18:27 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: no more config switches for drastically different behaviors | 18:27 |
| ayoung | the hierarchical naming is also only allowed if enabled | 18:27 |
| henrynash_ | dolphm: it enables a common deployment pattern of having duplicate hierchies for stages of a products deployment (as desciubed in the spec) | 18:27 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: /me puts on TC/defcore-thinking hat | 18:27 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: no. | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | notmorgan, yes. Please don't tie our hands for arbitrary rules | 18:28 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: this designs for non-interoperable clouds | 18:28 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, nope | 18:28 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: absolutely not -2. | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | not even a little | 18:28 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: yes it does, explicitly. | 18:28 |
| jamielennox | ayoung, notmorgan: agreed, we should move the whole project, it's a PITA not knowing if a server has something enabled or not | 18:28 |
| * ayoung proposes palace coup | 18:28 | |
| dolphm | henrynash_: i wasn't aware that we had a pattern around consuming entire hierarchies at all | 18:28 |
| shaleh | ayoung: a cup of what? :-) | 18:28 |
| crinkle | config management tools would have a hard time dealing with different deployment types like that | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | shaleh, tea of course | 18:28 |
| notmorgan | crinkle: ++. | 18:29 |
| ayoung | meh...I'm going back to Java | 18:29 |
| henrynash_ | dolphm: it’s how lots of internal development structures work….you just can do that in OPenSTack today | 18:29 |
| shaleh | ayoung: you just said tea.... | 18:29 |
| henrynash_ | sorry, “ can’t do that" | 18:29 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: i can have a "staging" project and a "production" project in the same domain today | 18:29 |
| ayoung | Programming ... make one mistake and support it for the rest of your life | 18:29 |
| gyee | ayoung, no, just deprecate it :-) | 18:30 |
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| notmorgan | dolphm: what henry is proposing is an "accounting" project and "dev" project, each wanting a "production" and "Staging" proiject under them | 18:30 |
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| notmorgan | dolphm: that is, afaict, the whole reason for this. | 18:30 |
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| gyee | notmorgan, they are really two different domains | 18:30 |
| dolphm | notmorgan: right, i follow. i'd name them "accounting-production" and "accounting-staging" and so on, personally | 18:30 |
| notmorgan | gyee: that has been my argument | 18:31 |
| shaleh | which sounds totally reasonable. We just need to work out how. | 18:31 |
| henrynash_ | dolphm: yep, but to be able to have a banch of the tree per preojct (so quotas can work), means you need, say /staging and /prod under muliple product branches of teh treee | 18:31 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: ++ | 18:31 |
| ayoung | and the real issue is that we can't have "domain":"foo", "project" :"bah" where "bah" exists twice under the domain | 18:31 |
| dolphm | or have different domains for "accounting" and "dev" | 18:31 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: +++++++++ | 18:31 |
| ayoung | so hierarchcial naming is going to be done Database style: with underscores | 18:31 |
| stevemar | ayoung: with dashes and hyphens, obvs | 18:31 |
| notmorgan | stevemar: ascii bell characters, duh | 18:32 |
| ayoung | stevemar, and nonprinting non asciii unicode characters | 18:32 |
| henrynash_ | dolphm, notmorgan: so we have to expose domains to teh rest of the projects so they can do quotas to cover up our restictiorns | 18:32 |
| notmorgan | henrynash_: i'm fine with other projects becoming domain aware tbh. | 18:32 |
| * gyee imagines how to enter the entire HMT in Chinese | 18:32 | |
| ayoung | (┛✧Д✧))┛彡┻━┻ | 18:32 |
| notmorgan | i think we're trying to walk backwards to avoid that | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | sorry that should be | 18:32 |
| bknudson_ | just like we have test_backend_endpoint_policy and test_backend_endpoint_policy_sql -- use _ instead of / | 18:32 |
| raildo | the only thing that I have to say (as part of the team who implemented HMT) HMT was not our last goal, it was one of the first steps to provide better and bigger use cases, like nested quota, reseller. So, this point that henrynash_ is trying to explain will open the doors for this usecases... | 18:32 |
| ayoung | domain="(┛✧Д✧))┛彡┻━┻" project="(┛✧Д✧))┛彡┻━┻" | 18:33 |
| shaleh | raildo: ++ | 18:33 |
| notmorgan | this pretty much is solved if we change our stance and let services be domain aware | 18:33 |
| notmorgan | and we've basically been headed that way for a while anyway | 18:33 |
| shaleh | why hide domains? What was the logic? | 18:33 |
| henrynash_ | notmorgan: we have a fundamental restrciotn based on a pre-domain model… | 18:33 |
| notmorgan | shaleh: simplicity | 18:33 |
| ayoung | they are stupid shaleh | 18:33 |
| ayoung | domains are projects | 18:33 |
| ayoung | just we decide to call them something else | 18:33 |
| bknudson_ | how is it possible to do hierarchical quota without other projects knowing about the hierarchy? | 18:34 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: oups. | 18:34 |
| ayoung | and force a two level hierachy | 18:34 |
| bknudson_ | unless it's keystone doing the quotas. | 18:34 |
| shaleh | ayoung: talking to other service teams they still say "tenant" | 18:34 |
| ayoung | headachy | 18:34 |
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| notmorgan | ayoung: predates me :( | 18:34 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, does not predate gyee | 18:34 |
| gyee | if it walk like a duck, quack like a duck, then it must be a duck | 18:34 |
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| notmorgan | ayoung: i'd argue they should have all been realms. :P | 18:34 |
| ayoung | gyee, it is not a flipping duck! | 18:34 |
| * notmorgan stops snarking | 18:34 | |
| raildo | bknudson_: in the current solution, the service calls keystone API to the get the hierarchy | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | bknudson_: services do an additional call to keystone to know the hierarchy of the project in question | 18:34 |
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| ayoung | and it is certainly not a domain according to DNS | 18:34 |
| jamielennox | i would also prefer not to expose domains to services - they shouldn't care | 18:34 |
| dolphm | bknudson_: you're assuming that no one puts underscores in their project names already? | 18:34 |
| ayoung | which is what really messes with the naming | 18:34 |
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| samueldmq | are we getting to working points/decisions here ? | 18:35 |
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| stevemar | samueldmq: nope :( | 18:35 |
| henrynash_ | (I don’t think so) | 18:35 |
| jamielennox | but if we could get back to the topic? | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: what is the reason behind that? i mean, nova being able to let a domain admin act upon all the vms in it's subprojects with one token? | 18:35 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: ++ | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: is that not a valid usecase? | 18:35 |
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| stevemar | henrynash_: i think it's on you to better convince us that all this work is going to result in a huge benefit | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: and similarly, domain X,Y,Z all share a pool of quota? | 18:36 |
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| ayoung | ϵ( ‘Θ’ )϶ | 18:36 |
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| stevemar | cause ATM, dolphm has a similar problem and fixes it in a different way | 18:36 |
| shaleh | stevemar: dolphm has a simpler, similar problem | 18:36 |
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| dolphm | it'd be simpler to enumerate the projects a token can act on in a "multi-project scoped token" (that way, other services don't have to care how keystone generated the list, nor do they have to store the project hierarchy" | 18:36 |
| dolphm | ) | 18:36 |
| raildo | ayoung: you have the better emoticons | 18:36 |
| ayoung | closest I could come to a duck gyee | 18:36 |
| stevemar | and, what exactly are the alternatives -- services becoming domain aware, etc | 18:36 |
| jamielennox | notmorgan: we've pushed all this way with HMT for that, i'd prefer to not leave it half done | 18:36 |
| henrynash_ | shaleh: I don’t see it as simpler….I see it as a bandaid | 18:37 |
| shaleh | henrynash_: agreed | 18:37 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: i think domains are fundamentally still something services should be able / willing to act on | 18:37 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: right, i totally agree | 18:37 |
| gyee | dolphm, bring back service-scoped tokens! | 18:37 |
| samueldmq | dolphm: like adding the subprojects in the token ? | 18:37 |
| ayoung | gyee, a service shoulkd be a project | 18:37 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: did you just say v4 /slap | 18:38 |
| henrynash_ | notmorgan: and right now with users being tied to domains, making multipel domain system work as one will likely be also complex | 18:38 |
| dolphm | gyee: it never went away! https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/service-scoped-tokens | 18:38 |
| gyee | ++ | 18:38 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: i hope not | 18:38 |
| gyee | ayoung, I am not disagreeing | 18:38 |
| ayoung | so...lets get to what we want to have...even if it is impossible | 18:38 |
| shaleh | ayoung: ++ | 18:38 |
| ayoung | a scope should be specified like this | 18:38 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: the tricky part is not the keystone API in my mind, it's the auth context interface between auth_token and underlying services | 18:38 |
| ayoung | domainname/p1/p2/p3 | 18:38 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: henrynash_ representing domains as proejcts should help other services adopting domains | 18:39 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: interesting you should say that - next topic | 18:39 |
| ayoung | that should fully specify the project. | 18:39 |
| stevemar | i think we all need to review the spec henrynash_ has authored (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/12) only raildo and dolphm have commented on the most recent rev | 18:39 |
| ayoung | we have no human friendly way of specifying a proejct deep in a hierarchy | 18:39 |
| henrynash_ | samueldmq: yes, although we know have to do things like…..replicate my ldap domain configurations for one enterise becaue they want to add a new project tree | 18:40 |
| raildo | stevemar: ++ | 18:40 |
| henrynash_ | (because teh domain has the ldap config) | 18:40 |
| notmorgan | stevemar: i have a minor thing to toss on the end. will be a last-minute spec possibly | 18:40 |
| notmorgan | stevemar: if we have time. | 18:40 |
| stevemar | notmorgan: -2 in advance | 18:40 |
| stevemar | :P | 18:40 |
| henrynash_ | I’ll need cloud admin rights to do that hat od thing | 18:40 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, so you will -2 anything that lest us fully specify a project that way? | 18:40 |
| jamielennox | henrynash_: ++, ldap providers should have been given an idp_id you could share | 18:40 |
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| notmorgan | ayoung: i am going to -2 a proposal to make this a config switch. | 18:41 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: i've not -2'd the current proposals except where they break api contract | 18:41 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, OK...so it has to be something enabled by default, and backwards compatible | 18:41 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: that's usually what we hope for :) | 18:41 |
| gyee | how's that possible? | 18:41 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: yep. after that, I'm going to as the UX question - but that is a -1 from me at most | 18:42 |
| notmorgan | if it sucks. | 18:42 |
| ayoung | there were several other options we floated. Some of the them suck, but maybe suck less | 18:42 |
| ayoung | looking at the JSON, we can specify a project name as an array | 18:42 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: but the -2 is very much incompat changes here *or* design for different experiences per cloud. | 18:42 |
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| henrynash_ | dolphm, notmorgan: if we are going to use domains for this, then we will absolutely need nested domains | 18:42 |
| ayoung | that was unfriendly from an env var | 18:42 |
| henrynash_ | (which I know you love) | 18:42 |
| ayoung | but I actually think it is nicer from a JSON perspective | 18:42 |
| notmorgan | henrynash_: and we then we run into this exact same argument with nested domains. | 18:43 |
| ayoung | project_name=['dom','p1','p2',p3'] | 18:43 |
| gyee | don't we already support nested domains? | 18:43 |
| stevemar | ayoung: that doesn't break API compat? | 18:43 |
| dolphm | option #23578: make project names non-uqique, and 401 if people try to auth by name but the specified name is ambiguous. force auth by project id | 18:43 |
| henrynash_ | gyee: ha! | 18:43 |
| ayoung | stevemar, nope | 18:43 |
| raildo | gyee: nope | 18:43 |
| notmorgan | henrynash_: so, put this to rest first before we open that convo - because my answer is going to be the same with domains... except they still need to be globally unique | 18:43 |
| ayoung | stevemar, it is "in addition to" | 18:43 |
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| notmorgan | dolphm: backwards incompat? | 18:44 |
| ayoung | the question stevemar is what happens when we have 2 'p2' projects under a domain | 18:44 |
| gyee | I thought we agreed on nested domains? | 18:44 |
| dolphm | notmorgan: only if you start using conflicting project names? | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: problem is ambiguous can happen after the fact, so it worked until someone else added a projec with the same name | 18:44 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: right, that's my point | 18:44 |
| ayoung | project_name=['dom','p1','p2',p3'] versus project_name=['dom','p99','p2',p3'] | 18:44 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: that kindof just breaks our whole api contract ... | 18:44 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: allow users to opt into this poor UX | 18:44 |
| dstanek | gyee: nested domains in addition to nested projects? | 18:44 |
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| stevemar | i don't think we're going to figure this out in the next 15 minutes, please comment on the spec instead | 18:44 |
| ayoung | until we had that, users could still do project_name='p2' domain_name='dom' | 18:44 |
| henrynash_ | stevemar: Ok, let’s clsoe this c topic for now | 18:45 |
| dstanek | stevemar: ++ let's move on | 18:45 |
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| gyee | dstanek, right | 18:45 |
| dolphm | \o/ | 18:45 |
| dstanek | round and round we go | 18:45 |
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| jamielennox | dolphm: that's not users, that's deployers, and we would always be surprising users with something that's very new | 18:45 |
| ayoung | no not one yet | 18:45 |
| stevemar | henrynash_: anything else you're looking for here before i switch? | 18:45 |
| dolphm | faster, faster! | 18:45 |
| ayoung | one last thing | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | let's continue on the spec | 18:45 |
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| samueldmq | :) | 18:45 |
| henrynash_ | stevemar: nope, that was …err.. fun | 18:45 |
| ayoung | it can be a property of the domain, not of the overal server, whether to allow this | 18:45 |
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| ayoung | and it should be | 18:45 |
| dolphm | ayoung: no | 18:45 |
| ayoung | it should be disabled by default | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: no. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | dolphm, yes | 18:46 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, yes | 18:46 |
| stevemar | dolphm: was that 'faster, faster!' for me? :) | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: same argument as before. NO. | 18:46 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, no it is not | 18:46 |
| dolphm | stevemar: for dstanek | 18:46 |
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| ayoung | 1. on the domain is discoverable | 18:46 |
| ayoung | it changes nothing by default | 18:46 |
| ayoung | and once it is set, it does not break other domains | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | people don't do that discoverability - they never have | 18:46 |
| ayoung | big difference is the last | 18:46 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, does not matter | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: and it can never ever ever ever be set after a domain is created | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: ever | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | matters hugely, it's also another request i need to make on every auth | 18:47 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, why not? | 18:47 |
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| notmorgan | ayoung: unless it has no children | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: you just broke working auth. | 18:47 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, it cannot be "unset" once there is a conflict | 18:47 |
| samueldmq | 13 mins left | 18:47 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: how much time do you need ? | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: it should immutable.. anyway move on | 18:48 |
| ayoung | I'll step down | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | i don't think this is going anywhere here. | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: it's mostly a please go look | 18:48 |
| * ayoung returns the conch | 18:48 | |
| jamielennox | stevemar: 5 min | 18:48 |
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| * stevemar takes the conch | 18:48 | |
| stevemar | #topic Reservations Spec | 18:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reservations Spec (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:48 | |
| * stevemar hands the speaking stick to jamielennox | 18:48 | |
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| ayoung | reservations are the approach we should have taken for ever | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | notmorgan will, of course, hate them | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | ok, so the service user permissions spec i was pointing everyone to a few weeks ago got poo-pooed by the mailing list and security groups | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | nope, i really like this spec | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | the new version is tentatively called reservations | 18:49 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, AWESOME! | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330329/ | 18:49 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, I was really afraid we would be at loggerheads over this...cool | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | i like the ephemeral nature of the passed on info | 18:49 |
| gyee | isn't trust reservations? | 18:49 |
| gyee | sorta | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | not to toot my own horn - but i really like this and what it can open up in future | 18:49 |
| ayoung | gyee, really similar | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | i like that it happens behind the scenes | 18:49 |
| bknudson_ | reservations have a limited lifetime? | 18:49 |
| notmorgan | and i like that it opens us to validate the user's authz at the edge and possibly offload down the line. | 18:50 |
| ayoung | gyee, so, a trust is recorded. A reservation is like an ephemeral trust based on a "fill in the blanks" template | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | it is most everything [with better details] I've wanted for a while | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | bknudson_: reservations are only for the lifetime of a single user request | 18:50 |
| ayoung | "I, state your name, do grant to party of the first part..." | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | it immediately solves the token expiration problem | 18:50 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: you'll need [impl. detail] define what that "lifespan" enforcement is | 18:50 |
| bknudson_ | how to enforce that? nova might save the reservation to the database. | 18:50 |
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| gyee | ayoung, oh, like a school permission slip | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | and long term can solve dynamic and centralized policy | 18:50 |
| gyee | school field trip permission slip | 18:50 |
| ayoung | Can we brainstorm a better name? | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: and possibly multi-project tokens | 18:51 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: but that is something i'm willing to punt on as this is wayyyyy better than today. | 18:51 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, so...where did the name "reservation" come from? What was the inspriation | 18:51 |
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| jamielennox | notmorgan: yea, there are going to be a lot of details to figure out | 18:51 |
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| notmorgan | jamielennox: i also like that this is another opaque blob we deconstruct | 18:51 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: so people can't reach in and "figure things out" and make the data in the blob a contract. | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: i did a bit of a pondering section - basically if i was starting from scratch i would combine authn/authz/quota etc into a pre-check, and basically what you have there is a reservation of resources | 18:52 |
| * ayoung just realized this will play really nicelt with caching | 18:52 | |
| notmorgan | we can encode what we need in it.. and change as needed | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: it applies less without quota - but i have no better names | 18:52 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: anyway i'm a fan of this spec. | 18:52 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: i need to read the spec, but in general i like it | 18:52 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: how do you enforce that reservations can't be replayed? | 18:52 |
| gyee | told you guys, if we have PKI token, we won't need this reservation business | 18:52 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: i think that is future looking. | 18:53 |
| ayoung | dstanek, it can be replayed | 18:53 |
| stevemar | gyee: those are deprecated :) | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | so my goal is to get people reviewing because there's a lot of follow on that i want to make sure we get right and not have like a HMT naming issue | 18:53 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: it is still a bearer token, but it's just internal only | 18:53 |
| dstanek | why is it better than a token then? | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | (sorry henrynash_) | 18:53 |
| ayoung | the idea is that the scope of the reservation is longer lived than the users origianl token | 18:53 |
| bknudson_ | dstanek: the token expires | 18:53 |
| ayoung | can we call these...resource-tokens? | 18:53 |
| bknudson_ | or is invalidated by the user | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: so it will still expire, but it's only created by the service | 18:53 |
| breton_ | > Keystone then issues a reservation to the service. The reservation contains the majority of data present in the token however is only valid for a specific operation. | 18:53 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: it's not passing the user's authz around, no expirations. it's service to service communication isolation | 18:53 |
| breton_ | > A reservation is entirely a service side concept and will never be exposed to users. | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | users will never see this | 18:53 |
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| breton_ | I don't get it. Will it be a REST API call? | 18:54 |
| dstanek | so it's a token with no definitive expiration | 18:54 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: tbd on how that happens. | 18:54 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: no, it's an authorization for one operation with an expiry | 18:54 |
| lbragstad | and it's still a bearer token? | 18:54 |
| lbragstad | oh | 18:54 |
| bknudson_ | auth-token middleware gets the reservation when it gets a token? | 18:54 |
| jamielennox | it's not a token that can be reused for arbitrary things | 18:54 |
| lbragstad | so what happens if its compromised? | 18:54 |
| shaleh | looks like we all have reading and a chat about it next week | 18:55 |
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| jamielennox | bknudson_: auth_token exchanges user token for a reservation to confirm they can perform the operation | 18:55 |
| breton_ | shaleh: ++ | 18:55 |
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| dstanek | how do we enforce that only a service can use it? | 18:55 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: policy, is the best we can do. | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | yep - but please ask questions cause it makes sense in my mind, but i'm not particularly good at getting this stuff out | 18:55 |
| shaleh | jamielennox: thanks for getting the ball rolling on this | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: service only operations | 18:55 |
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| bknudson_ | auth_token could check the roles on the service token | 18:55 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: so only a service user can use it? | 18:55 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: that is the idea | 18:55 |
| lbragstad | is it signed by the service client? | 18:56 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: yep - completely transparent to users | 18:56 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: and only a service user shyould be able to validate it. | 18:56 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: it's not "auth" token validation. | 18:56 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: i put signed as an option - more likely it'd be fernet style and validated by keystone | 18:56 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: it'd be something different. | 18:56 |
| dstanek | and what about lbragstad's question? | 18:56 |
| bknudson_ | does auth_token have to go to keystone to validate the reservation or can it validate locally? | 18:56 |
| notmorgan | bknudson_: worth asking, if you don't mind distributing keys, auth_token could validate it. | 18:56 |
| jamielennox | bknudson_: same thing, if we think we can do it via signing it's worth a try but i'm gunshy on that | 18:57 |
| lbragstad | that would require a distributed fernet repository if we build it on fernet, right? | 18:57 |
| lbragstad | #implementationdetailsarefun | 18:57 |
| dstanek | this seems similar to what i've been saying about scoping a token to a particular operation | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: no, same as today, keystone would validate | 18:57 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: yeah it's impl details. | 18:57 |
| bknudson_ | do we want to invalidate a reservation if the user is disabled? | 18:57 |
| stevemar | jamielennox: shouldn't we be going toward removing service users instead of reinforcing them | 18:57 |
| breton_ | why do we need user tokens then? | 18:57 |
| notmorgan | bknudson_: i'd say no. not middle of the operation | 18:57 |
| breton_ | just to pass it from keystone to keystonemiddleware? | 18:57 |
| notmorgan | breton_: user -> service communication | 18:57 |
| lbragstad | bknudson_ would we expect a service to keep doing something for a user if that user was disabled? | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: we will always need the concept of an operation being performed internally vs externally - whether we do PKI or service users of whatever there i don't care | 18:58 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: if the user requested an action, aka boot a vm, i'd expect that to continue if the user was disabled | 18:58 |
| bknudson_ | getting a large image from glance can take a long time, so user might be compromised in that time. | 18:58 |
| shaleh | PKI is just a service user with another name | 18:58 |
| lbragstad | (2 minute warning) | 18:58 |
| jamielennox | bknudson_: no, reservations are fairly short lived (one user operation) so they will disolve when the op is finished | 18:58 |
| gyee | no, PKI is a way to validate the data independently | 18:58 |
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| bknudson_ | jamielennox: you assume that user operations are short. they are not always. | 18:58 |
| dstanek | is this effectively similar to a service ignoring the expiration on a token if it's used by a service user? | 18:59 |
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| samueldmq | stevemar: 1 minute left | 18:59 |
| stevemar | oh no, morgan had something | 18:59 |
| bknudson_ | maybe the server that got the request could invalidate the reservation when it sees the operation is complete. | 18:59 |
| jamielennox | bknudson_: i'm aware but i can only be used for that operation however long it is | 18:59 |
| stevemar | we're out of time | 18:59 |
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| stevemar | go comment on jamie's spec :) | 18:59 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: no, we validate expiry once - at the time of the initial request | 18:59 |
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| notmorgan | really quick then. | 18:59 |
| stevemar | notmorgan: chat in -keystone? | 18:59 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: that's what i mean | 18:59 |
| notmorgan | i'm going to propose a way to remove paste.ini | 19:00 |
| stevemar | notmorgan: sounds diabolical | 19:00 |
| samueldmq | out of time :( | 19:00 |
| notmorgan | but not lose the functionality | 19:00 |
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| stevemar | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| notmorgan | anyway lets let -infra have the channel. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 19:00:22 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| ayoung | Wifi dropped | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-21-18.00.html | 19:00 |
| ayoung | anyway | 19:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-21-18.00.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-21-18.00.log.html | 19:00 |
| jeblair | notmorgan: that's a nice mic drop :) | 19:00 |
| fungi | anyone from the infra team around for another exciting weekly meeting? | 19:00 |
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| notmorgan | so fungi isn't angry at us ;) | 19:00 |
| clarkb | maybe | 19:00 |
| AJaeger | o/ | 19:00 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:00 |
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| jeblair | howdy | 19:00 |
| bkero | o/ | 19:00 |
| notmorgan | so uh... i'm "here" | 19:00 |
| notmorgan | i can't go hide now, can i? | 19:01 |
| Zara | o/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | this week we have topics proposed by nibalizer, fungi, pabelanger | 19:01 |
| crinkle | o/ | 19:01 |
| docaedo | o/ | 19:01 |
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| ianw | o/ | 19:01 |
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| SotK | o/ | 19:02 |
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| olaph | o/ | 19:02 |
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| Rockyg | o/ | 19:03 |
| fungi | okay, let's get this party started | 19:03 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:03 |
| nibalizer | woo | 19:03 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 19:03:16 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:03 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| fungi | #info The planned CI outage Friday, June 17 was postponed due to insufficient advance notification to the community | 19:03 |
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| fungi | pabelanger has a topic proposed later in the meeting to reschedule | 19:03 |
| fungi | #info Reminder: late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint | 19:04 |
| fungi | #info Reminder: StoryBoard Bug Squash this week! (tomorrow and thursday, 22nd and 23rd) | 19:04 |
| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004402.html | 19:04 |
| anteaya | yay! | 19:04 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
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| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-14-19.02.html | 19:04 |
| clarkb | fungi what sorts of rsvp are sap/organizers looking for on that midcycle? also double check but gerrit isbhaving a meetup there at the same time too so possibilities for collaboration there too | 19:05 |
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| anteaya | clarkb: have you a link to the gerrit meetup info? | 19:05 |
| fungi | looks like there were no action items recorded last meeting | 19:05 |
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| clarkb | anteaya: I can try to find it | 19:05 |
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| anteaya | clarkb: thanks | 19:05 |
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| fungi | clarkb: probably need to check with mkoderer on rsvp details if they're not in the updated info he added to that wiki page | 19:06 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval: PROPOSED Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle (fungi) | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: PROPOSED Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
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| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/331903 Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle | 19:06 |
| mtreinish | fungi: the only rsvp I know of is putting your name on the table at the bottom of the wiki page | 19:06 |
| fungi | mtreinish: thanks | 19:07 |
| clarkb | https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/repo-discuss/HDHKtGUYMoY | 19:07 |
| clarkb | anteaya: ^ | 19:07 |
| anteaya | clarkb: thanks | 19:07 |
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| jhesketh | Morning | 19:07 |
| fungi | so anyway, as most of you following the infra ml probably saw, i proposed a (later than i would have liked) update to our priority specs list for the remainder of the newton cycle | 19:07 |
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| anteaya | morning jhesketh | 19:08 |
| fungi | this is mostly cleanup based on the discussion which transpired earlier in that thread | 19:08 |
| fungi | we can (separately) discuss if we want to add new priorities as additional patches | 19:08 |
| anteaya | fungi: I'm fine with what you proposed but did reply asking about ipsilon | 19:08 |
| fungi | but wanted to get this reset out of the way first | 19:08 |
| anteaya | which I guess can be a separate discussion and possiblely a new patch | 19:08 |
| fungi | anteaya: awesome, thanks. i think that's possibly a prime candidate for a priority addition | 19:08 |
| anteaya | thanks | 19:09 |
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| odyssey4me | o/ | 19:09 |
| fungi | but we're on hold with it pending smarcet returning from his honeymoon to discuss www.o.o feature needs | 19:09 |
| fungi | #info Council voting is open on "Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle" until 19:00 UTC, Thursday, June 23 | 19:09 |
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| anteaya | fungi: very good, thanks | 19:10 |
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| fungi | similarly, i think jhesketh had a good suggestion that we should probably still prioritize solving some of our log publishing stability issues, but that's going to require making a choice between a couple of new options we have outlined | 19:10 |
| fungi | which is why it's not (yet) reflected on the updated priorities | 19:11 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval: PROPOSED Finglonger (nibalizer) | 19:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: PROPOSED Finglonger (nibalizer) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:11 | |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/310948 Finglonger | 19:11 |
| nibalizer | we talked about this at the summit | 19:11 |
| fungi | this looks interesting | 19:11 |
| nibalizer | there are a couple ideas on how ti implement it | 19:11 |
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| fungi | nibalizer: you're going to need to add it to the index.rst file | 19:12 |
| nibalizer | but before i go down that rabbit hole it seems like we should get some consensus? | 19:12 |
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| bkero | Are we talking about possibly implementing it ourselves? | 19:13 |
| nibalizer | probably | 19:13 |
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| fungi | nibalizer: consensus about the four described implementation options i guess? | 19:14 |
| mordred | nibalizer: I'm broadly in favor of the concept - I do not have smart things to say yet about specific implementations | 19:14 |
| bkero | Does anyone think that the listed 'alternatives' are a good idea? | 19:14 |
| fungi | i think focusing on zuulv3 is a great idea, but i don't see how it's directly related | 19:14 |
| nibalizer | fungi: i think the plan in general needs some consensus? i could also go down the path of an implementation if that is what people want | 19:15 |
| ianw | "There are tasks that are not managed in puppet that we currently do not have good process around." <- like what? is debugging/firefighting considered a task that this would be used for? | 19:15 |
| fungi | (one of the listed alternatives) | 19:15 |
| mordred | yah - I think focusing on zuul v3 is also going to happen | 19:15 |
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| mordred | ianw: "hey - can we restart gerrit it's seeming slow" is a good example | 19:15 |
| clarkb | is rundeck the large java app that dossnt come with good record kwwping like jenkisn? | 19:15 |
| fungi | was that one just in there as a representative of "our effort is better spent solving other problems for now"? | 19:15 |
| fungi | (the zuulv3 reference i mean) | 19:15 |
| anteaya | clarkb is on a phone | 19:16 |
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| clarkb | anteaya: yes surrounded by boxes | 19:16 |
| anteaya | woooo | 19:16 |
| nibalizer | clarkb: its a java app, i dont have much experience with it | 19:16 |
| jeblair | fungi: with zuulv3 potentially able to log into production machines and run playbooks, it may be possible to implement similar functionality with it. | 19:16 |
| nibalizer | the whole point of it is tk keep an audit log though, so i assume it does | 19:16 |
| fungi | jeblair: thanks--that was the connection i was missing | 19:17 |
| jhesketh | Without much knowledge on the subject; why not rundeck? | 19:17 |
| jeblair | fungi: but that's far enough off, and complex enough, that i think doing something like finglonger makes sense now | 19:17 |
| clarkb | nibalizer: but its all one off hand edited scripts with no history like jenkins jobs iirc | 19:17 |
| clarkb | jhesketh: because ^ | 19:17 |
| mordred | yah | 19:17 |
| clarkb | it basically reintroduces all of the jenkins issues we spent 4 years fighting until we deleted it | 19:17 |
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| mordred | I don't think rundeck is a fit for us | 19:17 |
| nibalizer | but if you look at implementation #4 its possible to do with a cronjob and a git hook | 19:18 |
| jeblair | especially since finglonger is trying to be pretty simple. and if we *do* start doing things like that with zuul3, we will have the experience of finglonger to inform how do use it | 19:18 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 19:18 |
| * jhesketh is a slow typer this morning | 19:18 | |
| mordred | also, finglonger is just a great name | 19:18 |
| anteaya | jhesketh: well it is early for you | 19:18 |
| jesusaur | has ansible made any mention of open-sourcing tower? or is that a pie-in | 19:18 |
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| jesusaur | -the-sky alternative? | 19:19 |
| mordred | it will happen | 19:19 |
| mordred | timeline is the question | 19:19 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: yea, i want finglonger to be stupid sinmple | 19:19 |
| clarkb | anyways I like the idea psrticularly for precanned but infrequent tasks | 19:19 |
| mordred | clarkb: ++ | 19:19 |
| anteaya | jesusaur: I was thinking pie-in was a new buzzword | 19:19 |
| nibalizer | then it shoukd inform the CD parts of zuulv3 yea | 19:19 |
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| jesusaur | anteaya: ha, no, just my - and enter being too close together | 19:20 |
| anteaya | :) | 19:20 |
| mordred | anteaya: I think pie-in should be a new buzzword | 19:20 |
| anteaya | mordred: I agree | 19:20 |
| Zara | buy-in as a result of convincing pie-charts? | 19:20 |
| clarkb | restart gerrit, rebuild nodepool images, etc | 19:21 |
| anteaya | Zara: oh, thinker you are | 19:21 |
| nibalizer | make a new volume, add to afs, clean out files created by accident | 19:21 |
| jhesketh | If tower isn't opened sourced soon somebody else will beat them to it. I'd prefer to use existing tooling but I realise that requires waiting around on unknowns | 19:21 |
| anteaya | save the check and gate queue | 19:21 |
| jhesketh | (And we could be the ones to beat them to it) | 19:21 |
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| fungi | i think as long as these scripts and their triggered invocation go somewhere to be very, _very_ carefully reviewed for possible risk (not only in their direct effects but also the side effects of publishing their output), it's not particularly any more dangerous than what we already do with puppet/ansible and our current interactive work | 19:21 |
| mordred | there is also the thing that we'd still have to figure out how to tell tower to do something | 19:22 |
| nibalizer | jhesketh: also if you look at #4 finglonger can be made very very easily | 19:22 |
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| * reed drools at open source tower :) | 19:22 | |
| nibalizer | fungi: es | 19:22 |
| mordred | like, if tower was open sourced tomorrow, we'd STILL need to do work | 19:22 |
| nibalizer | yes | 19:22 |
| mordred | in terms of triggering, etc | 19:22 |
| mordred | so I imagine that finglonger could still have a place in a post-tower-open-source world | 19:22 |
| jeblair | we would need some kind of very long finger to reach up to the button in the tower | 19:22 |
| mordred | jeblair: yup | 19:22 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: groan | 19:23 |
| fungi | nibalizer: honestly, i'm more concerned about publishing the output since that can't be reviewed directly until it's public | 19:23 |
| clarkb | fungi: thats a good point | 19:23 |
| mordred | fungi: speaking of that - we should really check out ara more at some point | 19:23 |
| clarkb | a task could cat private key data | 19:23 |
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| mordred | and see if/how it can/cannot help us | 19:23 |
| nibalizer | fungi: well with precanned things we can socialize a rule that the first time a job runs it doesnt publish to www | 19:23 |
| fungi | clarkb: well, we'd presumably catch something overt in reviewing the proposed command | 19:23 |
| nibalizer | to verify | 19:23 |
| mordred | nibalizer: ++ | 19:23 |
| fungi | but yeah, maybe this is only for commands we've already run in production at least once and are comfortable they don't leak any sensitive data in their output (as well as comfortable they are unlikely to break something, obviously) | 19:24 |
| nibalizer | sice i inagine most finglonger scripts to end in | ssh logs.openstack.org cat - > /var/www/something | 19:24 |
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| fungi | nibalizer: or, as mordred says, ara | 19:25 |
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| jesusaur | ara? | 19:25 |
| nibalizer | eh maybe | 19:25 |
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| nibalizer | we went down that road with puppetboard, and now injust want shell output | 19:26 |
| mordred | ara is orthogonal to this discussion | 19:26 |
| fungi | nibalizer: yep, i can sympathize | 19:26 |
| nibalizer | i also expect more finglonger scripts to be shell than ansible | 19:26 |
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| nibalizer | but thats a guess | 19:26 |
| mordred | nibalizer: oh, I do not expect that at all | 19:26 |
| fungi | oh, good point, not "shell run via ansible" but just "shell" | 19:26 |
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| clarkb | jesusaur: google says its a modular phone so I have no idea | 19:26 |
| jesusaur | clarkb: yeah, I got the same thing | 19:27 |
| nibalizer | mordred: we will see | 19:27 |
| mordred | I do not like the idea of having a bunch of non-ansible shell scripts being run by another system | 19:27 |
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| nibalizer | its a comminity web ansible report viewer thing | 19:27 |
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| mordred | like, I don't like that idea very much | 19:27 |
| fungi | clarkb: jesusaur: an ansible dashboardy thing dmsimard has written and proposed as project in gerrit | 19:27 |
| odyssey4me | clarkb jesusaur https://github.com/dmsimard/ara | 19:27 |
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| clarkb | oh that thing | 19:27 |
| mordred | because then we'd have THREE systems for running things | 19:27 |
| clarkb | ya thats orthogonal | 19:27 |
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| nibalizer | oh its in our stuff now? neat | 19:27 |
| fungi | dunno if that new project change request has merged yet, but he's wanting to maintain it through gerrit anyway | 19:28 |
| fungi | but regardless, side topic | 19:28 |
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| nibalizer | is there enough in the spec to vote on it? | 19:28 |
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| jesusaur | mordred: so you're thinking finglonger would look like a playbook with the special timer trigger magic? | 19:28 |
| jesusaur | rather than a collection of shell scripts? | 19:28 |
| mordred | jesusaur: I'm thinking neither thing | 19:29 |
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| mordred | I'm thikning it would be something that would run ansible | 19:29 |
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| mordred | we already hav ea system for running ad hoc commands on hosts | 19:29 |
| jesusaur | ahh | 19:29 |
| mordred | we just don't hav ea system to drive it | 19:29 |
| mordred | so I REALLY don't want to see a new system invented for running ad hoc commands | 19:29 |
| fungi | so it sounds like there is some consensus the goal with finglonger still makes sense (as discussed in austin) but you still have four implementation options (listed at "three ideas..." yay math!) which need to be decided between i guess? | 19:29 |
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| nibalizer | one was a late addition | 19:30 |
| fungi | heh | 19:30 |
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| nibalizer | so we coukd vote in the spec then the people working on it (probably me) could build what works and makes sense | 19:31 |
| fungi | i posit we want to see the implementation section whittled down to one design before we put this up for council vote | 19:31 |
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| fungi | the design can change, but at least say what you expect to try first | 19:31 |
| nibalizer | do people have strong implementation opinions? | 19:31 |
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| nibalizer | ok | 19:32 |
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| fungi | mordred seemed to have a very strong implementation opinion, for example | 19:32 |
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| fungi | (that opinion being, we should trigger ansible somehow) | 19:32 |
| mordred | well, I have a strong opinion on one portion :) | 19:32 |
| nibalizer | ok | 19:32 |
| bkero | I think the general idea of code as a liability applies here | 19:32 |
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| fungi | but yeah, it's nibalizer's spec, i'd at least like to see his list of implementations to try turned into a "nibalizer's preferences" ordering | 19:33 |
| nibalizer | ok i will flesh out only one implemenation secrion of the spec then | 19:33 |
| nibalizer | or a list haha | 19:33 |
| fungi | you can mention alternate implementations, just suggest one | 19:33 |
| nibalizer | ok | 19:33 |
| nibalizer | thanks | 19:33 |
| mordred | nibalizer: can you just implement all of the options, and then we can all sit in a room and judge you? | 19:34 |
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| nibalizer | lol | 19:34 |
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| fungi | sounds like the plan for barcelona | 19:34 |
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| pleia2 | haha | 19:34 |
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| fungi | nibalizer: also see my (trivial but important) -1 when you're revising | 19:35 |
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| fungi | anything else on this one? | 19:35 |
| nibalizer | yep | 19:35 |
| nibalizer | nope | 19:35 |
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| fungi | thanks nibalizer! this looks like it is shaping up to be awesome | 19:35 |
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| mordred | ++ | 19:36 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:36 | |
| fungi | i'll refresh this list once we decide on my proposed update | 19:36 |
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| fungi | then we can have a run-through hopefully next week | 19:36 |
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| fungi | #topic New date for zuul.o.o / static.o.o trusty upgrades (pabelanger) | 19:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New date for zuul.o.o / static.o.o trusty upgrades (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:36 | |
| fungi | pabelanger is still not in here | 19:37 |
| * mordred hands fungi a slightly used pabelanger he found at the mall | 19:37 | |
| fungi | however, he left us a lovely etherpad | 19:37 |
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| pleia2 | mordred: he's sticky | 19:37 |
| clarkb | did we get feedback that more lead time was needed? I think we gave a couple weeks? | 19:37 |
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| pleia2 | ick, mall things | 19:37 |
| mordred | pleia2: inorite? | 19:37 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/upgrade-zuul-trusty proposed maintenance notification | 19:38 |
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| clarkb | not sure what constraints we are operating under here | 19:38 |
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| anteaya | clarkb: well we decided on a couple weeks, but the announcement didn't happen in time to give a couple weeks | 19:38 |
| pleia2 | ah yes, I can make sure the announcement goes out this time | 19:38 |
| clarkb | ah ok | 19:38 |
| anteaya | clarkb: so we knew about it but noone else did | 19:39 |
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| fungi | i don't recall how much advance notice we planned for, but regardless there wasn't one as of last thursday so i suggested not doing it the following day | 19:39 |
| anteaya | <-- very slow library wifi, sigh | 19:39 |
| jeblair | it was published in locked filing cabinet in the basement | 19:39 |
| mordred | jeblair: that's a totally reasonable place to publish notice | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | Beware of the Leopard. | 19:39 |
| fungi | however i had discarded the sign on the lavatory door saying "beware of teh leopard" | 19:39 |
| anteaya | fungi: we had planned for 2 weeks | 19:40 |
| anteaya | fungi: but I think one week is enough, but yeah not 24 hours | 19:40 |
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| fungi | anteaya: yeah, sort of two weeks. at the meeting on the 7th we said we'd do it on the 17th, so more like a week and a half (to give time to have an announcement go out at least a week ahead) | 19:41 |
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| anteaya | yeah | 19:41 |
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| anteaya | so next Friday July 1 is Canada Day so pabelanger and I will be on holiday | 19:41 |
| fungi | so anyway, with that in mind, who's around on july 1st? it's the day before a popular holiday weekend in the usa so i expect there may not be a lot of infra-root admins on hand | 19:42 |
| fungi | right-o | 19:42 |
| anteaya | and the week following I may or may not be in China, I don't know yet | 19:42 |
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| mordred | fungi: I will be around | 19:42 |
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| anteaya | but we don't need me for this | 19:42 |
| mordred | the week following I will definitely be in China | 19:42 |
| fungi | the release schedule is pretty open up through mid-august | 19:42 |
| pleia2 | I need to leave a bit early on the 1st, so it's not a great day for me | 19:43 |
| clarkb | I can likely be around on july 1 | 19:43 |
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| pleia2 | the 8th is better | 19:43 |
| fungi | with the exception of july 11-15 for n2 | 19:43 |
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| jeblair | i think i'm available on the 1st | 19:43 |
| * bkero will be around for moral support | 19:43 | |
| fungi | i can do july 1 with no problem | 19:43 |
| fungi | anybody want to volunteer to update pabelanger's proposed announcement to say july 1 and then send it? that give us a solid week+ of warning | 19:44 |
| pleia2 | I can do that | 19:44 |
| jeblair | (yes, i am available on the 1st) | 19:44 |
| fungi | i'm comfortable upgrading static.o.o and with jeblair around for support i'm comfortable with the zuul.o.o upgrade as well | 19:44 |
| fungi | thanks pleia2! | 19:44 |
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| fungi | #action pleia2 send maintenance notification for static/zuul server upgrades 20:00 utc friday july 1 | 19:45 |
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| fungi | #info CI outage Friday, July 1 so we can upgrade the operating system for zuul.openstack.org and static.openstack.org, 20:00-22:00 UTC | 19:46 |
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| fungi | anything else we need to discuss about the upgrade/scheduling? | 19:46 |
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| anteaya | I'm good | 19:47 |
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| fungi | i don't see any other late entry topics on the agenda, so... | 19:47 |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:47 | |
| fungi | did anybody see that sports match where the team in one color triumphed over the inferior specimens wearing that other color? | 19:48 |
| anteaya | so tomorrow's storyboard bug sprint is sort of a new contributor onboarding thing too | 19:48 |
| anteaya | tomorrow and Thursday | 19:48 |
| anteaya | so pleae attend and bring a friend | 19:48 |
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| fungi | i'm quite excited. i'd like to spend a fair amount of time focused on storyboard bits since i haven't really up to now | 19:48 |
| pleia2 | thanks for the reminder! | 19:48 |
| anteaya | thank you | 19:48 |
| clarkb | fungi: I didnt, the game was broadcast on fs1 instead of fox | 19:48 |
| anteaya | pleia2: fungi looking forward to seeing you there | 19:48 |
| bkero | fungi: i am a fan of citynamesportsteam | 19:49 |
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| Zara | :D | 19:49 |
| SotK | \o/ | 19:49 |
| jeblair | fungi: i did not see it, but everyone else in my town did and i heard them yelling about it and was able to follow it fairly well nonetheless. | 19:49 |
| fungi | bkero: those losers? they can't compare to othercitynamesportsteam | 19:49 |
| pleia2 | I should have zaro's hiera changes in for the gerrit<>sb dev integration by EoD today | 19:49 |
| anteaya | Manchester United! | 19:49 |
| AJaeger | jeblair asked for consensus on adding back the files section on project-config, see https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330821/ - how do we want to continue there? | 19:49 |
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| anteaya | pleia2: yay, thank you | 19:49 |
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| fungi | jeblair: yeah, when i lived in an apartment in chapel hill for a number of years, i could follow the games by the thumping coming from my ceiling, the general hooting through walls, and of course the incessant honking of horns all over town afterward | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | i think it would be really nice if we could get more folks to weigh in one way or another on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330821/ | 19:50 |
| anteaya | after the world cup in germany the germans made noise for an entire 10 minutes, then got in their cars and went home | 19:51 |
| anteaya | it was a sight to see | 19:51 |
| Zara | Manchester is the worst place to live if you want to avoid football fans | 19:51 |
| anteaya | Zara: or going there on the train too | 19:51 |
| Zara | just being anywhere within 200 miles, probably | 19:51 |
| jeblair | since it reverts a change with 2 +2s, none of whom have voted on the revert | 19:51 |
| bkero | anteaya: i am in germany, they are still making noise | 19:52 |
| anteaya | bkero: really? how interesting | 19:52 |
| bkero | yeah, its a special day too. Lots of live music all over berlin | 19:52 |
| jeblair | i think reviews from clarkb, fungi, yolanda on 330821 would be especially good | 19:52 |
| docaedo | speaking of football, any more thoughts about my IRC spec? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/319506/ | 19:52 |
| zaro | pleia2: i Will not be installing storyboard plugin with puppetry. my patches won't land in time. youll just need to give me the token | 19:52 |
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| anteaya | I did find though there there was only one file clip that could be played for audio/video demonstrations | 19:52 |
| fungi | clarkb: any chance you can wrangle phone access to weigh in on 330821? you were the other concerned voice earlier | 19:52 |
| pleia2 | zaro: ok, we'll chat after the meeting | 19:53 |
| AJaeger | jeblair: clarkb just said on #openstack-infra that he's fine with reverting it, let me find his quote | 19:53 |
| AJaeger | "AJaeger: I have already said my piece if others want to take the time to review and keep those up tondate thats fine" | 19:53 |
| clarkb | ya I am ok with it if other people want to be maintaining rukes as files move and are added/removed | 19:53 |
| fungi | my only caveat is that we need to make sure we have at least one job which runs on any change even if it's a new filename we haven't predicted | 19:54 |
| fungi | there have been points in time where that was not the case, and then we couldn't merge changes | 19:54 |
| AJaeger | The layout change is the one that always runs - and I'm not going to approve again a files section for that. Been there, reverted ;) | 19:54 |
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| jeblair | i think that was a long time ago | 19:55 |
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| fungi | looks like we've run out of open discussion | 19:56 |
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| AJaeger | ok, I'll ping yolanda for the change and if she's fine, let's merge it... | 19:57 |
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| docaedo | fungi: except for my IRC topic (don't forget you're the spirit guide for it ;) ) | 19:57 |
| fungi | docaedo: indeed--i tried out your demo server for a couple days too. seemed to reconnect and do stuff nicely! | 19:58 |
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| anteaya | fungi is everyone's favourite spirit guide | 19:58 |
| docaedo | yay! | 19:58 |
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| docaedo | I think of this as a sort of eternal september except for IRC instead of usenet | 19:58 |
| fungi | let's hope not? | 19:58 |
| docaedo | oh wait, that might not turn out so great... | 19:58 |
| docaedo | haha | 19:58 |
| fungi | i keep waiting for eternal september to end | 19:58 |
| mordred | fungi: we're moving mailing lists to NNTP??? | 19:59 |
| fungi | it actually basically has. there's almost nobody on usenet anymore. not even spammers | 19:59 |
| mordred | that's what I just heard at leats | 19:59 |
| anteaya | well if the spammers have left... | 19:59 |
| fungi | we could claim it for our own and stake our flag there | 19:59 |
| mordred | anteaya: that's what I'm saying! | 19:59 |
| fungi | anyway, that's it for time this week | 19:59 |
| fungi | thanks everybody! | 20:00 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 20:00:07 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-21-19.03.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-21-19.03.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-21-19.03.log.html | 20:00 |
| fungi | take it away, ttx | 20:00 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:00 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 20:00 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:00 |
| amrith | \./ | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| thingee | o/ | 20:00 |
| ttx | annegentle, dims, johnthetubaguy, mestery, mtreinish, morgan, sdague : around ? | 20:00 |
| dims | o/ | 20:00 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:00 |
| mestery | o/ | 20:00 |
| * edleafe lounges by the window | 20:00 | |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 21 20:01:05 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| mtreinish | o/ | 20:01 |
| * Rockyg munches on a nectarine in the back | 20:01 | |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
| flaper87 | edleafe: still trapped in your car ? | 20:01 |
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| flaper87 | :D | 20:01 |
| ttx | Hi everyone... Our agenda for today is: | 20:01 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:01 |
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| edleafe | flaper87: Nope, not today :) | 20:01 |
| ttx | A few easy ones to start | 20:01 |
| ttx | #topic Add current house rules for reference | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add current house rules for reference (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/330442 | 20:01 |
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| ttx | Last meeting I signed up to document the current rules we follow to fast-track some specific changes | 20:01 |
| * thingee is about to step out of a taxi and run to the nearest desk ... might be MIA for a second | 20:01 | |
| ttx | This is obviously a living document so feel free to propose subsequent changes | 20:02 |
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| ttx | Has enough approvals to pass now, so will approve unless someone yells | 20:02 |
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| dims | ++ ttx | 20:02 |
| ttx | approved | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic Update team tags for some projects | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update team tags for some projects (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/329327 | 20:03 |
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| ttx | This is your regular team diversity tag update, courtesy of flaper87 this time | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | I just ran the validation script and ttx helped out to double check | 20:03 |
| ttx | Also has enough approvals to pass, so will approve now unless someone screams | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | w00h000 | 20:03 |
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| ttx | I won't count that as a scream | 20:03 |
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| russellb | you should clarify the type of scream next time, i suppose | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | it's pure joy coming out of my lungs | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | russellb: ++ | 20:04 |
| russellb | a scream of opposition | 20:04 |
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| dims | haha | 20:04 |
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| mordred | russellb: can we write up a definition of screams and a categorization system for them? | 20:04 |
| ttx | approved | 20:04 |
| dims | and tag them! | 20:04 |
| ttx | #topic Remove Packaging-Deb project team | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Remove Packaging-Deb project team (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:04 | |
| russellb | mordred: sounds like the only way to move forward | 20:04 |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/329430 | 20:04 |
| jroll | mordred: you might call it a scream catalog | 20:04 |
| mordred | jroll: ++ | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | scream:opposed-to-patch | 20:04 |
| ttx | So... I proposed this because Packaging-Deb is the only official project team without any visible activity | 20:04 |
| ttx | and we now require project teams to show some activity before we accept them | 20:04 |
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| notmorgan | dropping to unofficial status seems reasonable | 20:05 |
| ttx | I understand that the team will need some infra support, and that being official facilitates prioritizing that up | 20:05 |
| notmorgan | until they have activity | 20:05 |
| mordred | I'm not in favor of removing this as the project team in question is currently in the middle of good-faith effort to implement the needed things | 20:05 |
| russellb | i also see no harm in keeping it if they're trying to mobilize | 20:05 |
| ttx | But I'm not (yet) convinced that infra support is a prerequisite before the team can start working on the OpenStack side | 20:05 |
| notmorgan | it would be super easy to re-add but i'll defer if someone says they are making the effort | 20:05 |
| mordred | which is the result of the discussions that were had on this very topic at the summit | 20:05 |
| ttx | mordred: any reason why the git repositories are not migrated from git.debian.org ? | 20:05 |
| ttx | I see there is a Mirantis server building packages from pushes to git.debian.org, I suspect it could read from git.openstack.org instead | 20:05 |
| * notmorgan assumes they are w/ the commit message and mordred's comment | 20:05 | |
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| AJaeger | mordred: any discussion on mailing lists? Any IRC meetings for the project? | 20:06 |
| mordred | because migrating them without the testing support would be a downgrade, and we're currently working on adding the things we've specced out to make that make sense | 20:06 |
| mordred | AJaeger: zigo and fungi have been working in the infra channel, also pabelanger and I have been involved | 20:06 |
| ttx | mordred: why would it be a downgrade ? I'm pretty sure the Mirantis CI can read from git.openstack.org just the same | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | it sounds like there's work here, it's just not easily visible because of where it's happening? | 20:06 |
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| mordred | dhellmann: yah | 20:06 |
| mordred | it's work being done by the project team in question it's just happening in infra land at the moment | 20:07 |
| dims | we can ping zigo to see what's needed i guess | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | If there's work going on, I'm good with deferring the removal for a bit longer | 20:07 |
| notmorgan | wfm then | 20:07 |
| zigo | I'm here. | 20:07 |
| ttx | dheI'd argue it happens outside of openstack, in git.debian.org | 20:07 |
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| mtreinish | mordred: sure, but do we want something as an openstack project that doesn't have an artifacts in openstack git? | 20:07 |
| mordred | so - debian packaging is a bit of a beast | 20:07 |
| dims | ooh there's detailed notes from zigo in the review | 20:07 |
| mordred | and getting infra able to have artifacts for it at all is non-trivial | 20:07 |
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| ttx | mordred: I don't see that as a prerequisite though | 20:08 |
| mordred | the work required is understood and under way | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | what problems would it cause to the packaging-deb team if we approve this patch ? | 20:08 |
| fungi | right, i don't necessarily disagree with removal from the governance list (tc oversight doesn't really provide direct benefit to the work going on now, nor would it be hard to re-add later), but there is work being done | 20:08 |
| zigo | ttx: So, we would just use gerrit, but packages wouldn't be published? How do you expect to even try to install the produced packaged then? | 20:08 |
| flaper87 | Just want to lay out what the downsides of this patch for the debian team are | 20:08 |
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| ttx | zigo: how is that different from the current situation ? | 20:08 |
| fungi | i think packages could also be published without it being in the governance list | 20:08 |
| zigo | ttx: I've explained it on the review. Currently, each git push produce a package, and then we can run a full all-in-one install of OpenStack and run tempest. | 20:09 |
| zigo | We don't have this in OpenStack infra. | 20:09 |
| mordred | I would actually not be in favor of openstack publishing packages without it in the governance list | 20:09 |
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| zigo | We can only build openstack-pkg-tools, and because that one isn't published in a Debian repository, other packages can't use it as a build-dependency, and therefore cannot build. | 20:09 |
| ttx | zigo: My point is, today you're using git.debian.org and using Mirantis CI to build packages. Tomorrow you could use git.openstack.org and Mirantis CI to build packages, at least temporarily | 20:09 |
| notmorgan | mordred: i'm 100% behind that stance | 20:09 |
| mordred | I think that is not in keeping with how the other projects work - and distro packages by nature are things people will start to rely on no matter what we say | 20:09 |
| fungi | the reason we originally pushed to have this be "official" was that we were still in the days of the stackforge/ git namespace and infra didn't want to see a hundred repos need to be renamed to the openstack/ namespace once it applied to be an official project-team | 20:09 |
| thingee | mordred: not sure if I necessary agree with that. distributions can produce their own packages without our involvement | 20:09 |
| zigo | ttx: How would I trigger the build?!? | 20:10 |
| russellb | people are doing stuff, do we want to encourage those people to keep doing more stuff close to openstack? i think yes, so let's just leave it be. | 20:10 |
| thingee | although it would be nice to part of the community | 20:10 |
| mordred | thingee: I was responding to fungi saying that _We_ could publish packages for it without it being official | 20:10 |
| ttx | zigo: how do you trigger the build currently ? | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | zigo : how do you do it now? | 20:10 |
| notmorgan | thingee: i don't want *us* to publish packagses uniless they are official | 20:10 |
| thingee | you can't stop distributions doing their own thing | 20:10 |
| zigo | dhellmann: I have a git recieve hook. | 20:10 |
| mordred | notmorgan: ++ | 20:10 |
| thingee | notmorgan: so, debian publishes them ... | 20:10 |
| thingee | what am I missing? | 20:10 |
| notmorgan | thingee: thats all. not that it has to be official for someone to publish packages. | 20:10 |
| zigo | I'm all for having a better solution and move to gerrit *NOW* if someone has an idea. | 20:10 |
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| thingee | well if you're not in the governance... sounds like you're not official | 20:10 |
| mordred | so - before we re-engineer the solution in this meeting | 20:10 |
| notmorgan | zigo: i think it's fine to defer the removal for now. | 20:10 |
| thingee | notmorgan: ^ | 20:11 |
| thingee | you're just like a lot of things. part of the ecosystem | 20:11 |
| ttx | Look, I totally agree with the endgame. I just don't get why you can't migarte teh git repositories now. Nobody answers that question | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | mordred : yeah, I was just trying to understand why moving would break things | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | As I said, if there's work going on, I think we could just defer the removal for a couple of months | 20:11 |
| notmorgan | thingee: if we have a project publishing packages under the auspices of openstack, i'd rather it be an official project than not. | 20:11 |
| mordred | ttx: I'm purposely not answering that question because at the moment there is a plan to get things migrated | 20:11 |
| thingee | dhellmann: +1 ... I don't think this has been answered yet | 20:11 |
| dims | +1 to defer removal for now. but would like to hear a plan that works soon-ish | 20:11 |
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| flaper87 | I don't think the removal would impact the work going on but keeping it for a couple of more months won't hurt for sure | 20:12 |
| annegentle | (here, sorry I'm late) | 20:12 |
| thingee | notmorgan: totally, but you can't stop the world from publishing their packages | 20:12 |
| mordred | thingee: that's not what any of this is about | 20:12 |
| notmorgan | thingee: if it's just storing the data in git, sure, but this is more of a using infra to publish to an official repo. | 20:12 |
| fungi | it feels like a catch-22 if we're avoiding publishing packages unless the project is an official part of openstack, but avoiding making it official because work to build the current packages is happening outside openstack infra | 20:12 |
| thingee | notmorgan: so simply, you're official if you're in this governance list | 20:12 |
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| thingee | if you're not, you're not official. | 20:12 |
| ttx | it feels like the work could happen on openstack side with no loss with just a s/debian/openstack/ on the Mirantis CI side | 20:12 |
| zigo | ttx: That's what I've been trying to do. I'm sorry if I'm not good enough at it using the current OpenStack infra, but I think everyone from infra can vouch for the fact I've been trying for the last 12 months | 20:12 |
| mordred | thingee: nothing is about stopping the world from publishing packages ... the question about package publication is about whether or not Infra publishes a package repo | 20:12 |
| notmorgan | mordred: ++ | 20:12 |
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| flaper87 | mordred: thingee notmorgan can we go back to discussing the patch and not who can publish packages? | 20:13 |
| mordred | I do not believe that infra should publish openstack packages without the associated project being official | 20:13 |
| thingee | well based on ecosystem rules, infra could still be part of things. | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | I don't think this work is there yet | 20:13 |
| thingee | mordred: +1 | 20:13 |
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| dhellmann | mordred : +1 | 20:13 |
| zigo | The thing about publishing packages is *NOT* about having them accessible for the general public. | 20:13 |
| ttx | mordred: we publish plenty of tarballs for projects not official | 20:13 |
| zigo | It's about having them available as build-dependencies to build other packages. | 20:13 |
| mordred | ttx: but we do not publish docs for them | 20:13 |
| mordred | and yes - what zigo just said | 20:13 |
| fungi | i agree that people will come to rely on whatever we publish, no matter what we say about it being unofficial, but people come to rely on tarballs and git repos of unofficial projects we publish today as well | 20:14 |
| mordred | we need a package repo available so that we can cross-test inter-dependencies of the packages with the rest of the things that are also in master | 20:14 |
| thingee | ttx: sounds like we may need to revisit things of infra's involvement then if there is some consensus around publish things and infra involvement | 20:14 |
| ttx | hmm, ok, I can buy that. I still don't understand why you can't migrate the git repositories today though. | 20:14 |
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| dhellmann | mordred, zigo : I think the thing that bothers me here is that we have an official project using a bunch of private resources still, and that makes it impossible for someone not involved to see what's going on at all. Which, while I don't think anything untoward is going on, doesn't set a good precedent. | 20:14 |
| notmorgan | ttx: no hooks - he could if he watched the gerrit stream instead of the direct git hooks | 20:14 |
| fungi | it sounds like the mirantis ci doing continuous package builds would need some reworking to switch from some sort of web callback to consuming gerrit events | 20:14 |
| mordred | dhellmann: I TOTLALY agree and I would not do this this way if I had it to do over | 20:15 |
| ttx | notmorgan: Ah. I see | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | ttx: it is doable, but may be throw-away effort in the long term | 20:15 |
| mordred | dhellmann: but right now, I do not think it helps anything to temporarily remove the project from governance | 20:15 |
| ttx | notmorgan: ok, thanks you | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | ttx: since zuul/etc will handle that for him :) | 20:15 |
| zigo | dhellmann: So, mostly, you're saying we don't have enough visibility, right? | 20:15 |
| ttx | mordred: ok, morgan gave mae a good reason for deferring | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | mordred : I mostly agree. Still, it would be nice to see some sort of public activity. Where is the coordination of this work happening? | 20:15 |
| thingee | so my comment in the review of not immediately voting for things is because mordred has a history in the community of coming through with things. what is the timeline of things actually migrating? | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | dhellmann: would a status update on the ML cover it? | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | dhellmann: like... semi-regular? | 20:15 |
| jroll | mordred: dhellmann: I think there's a question there, is the project team doing stuff using private resources, or is that mirantis doing those things and the project team is working toward moving all of that? | 20:15 |
| jroll | I almost feel like it's the latter | 20:16 |
| mordred | dhellmann: right now in #openstack-infra | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | jroll : yeah, I think you're right. | 20:16 |
| dims | jroll : it's just poor zigo doing all the work there :) (not mirantis!) | 20:16 |
| notmorgan | vs strictly irc, i'm ok asking zigo to provide progress/updates to the ML every so often so we have clear visibility to point at vs "irc logs"? | 20:16 |
| fungi | ultimately, i suspect a lot of this would be solved (or wouldn't have come up) if the governance change to add all those package repos had depended on a project-config change to create them first | 20:16 |
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| notmorgan | fungi: possibly | 20:17 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : yes, in future I think that's a good way to arrange things | 20:17 |
| mordred | dhellmann: ++ | 20:17 |
| fungi | we have more policy/process/expectatins around that now, but didn't back when that governance change was merged | 20:17 |
| fungi | er, expectations | 20:17 |
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| dhellmann | notmorgan : yeah, some mailing list updates would help make the project seem more alive for those of us not reading #openstack-infra all day | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | zigo: would you mind sending a quick status update to the ML on this process every so often? | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | zigo: it would help :) | 20:17 |
| zigo | What you guys have to realize as well, is that what you call "mirantis CI" is just a git hook to build packages using Jenkins. So, we go in interrative ways with "git push" until it builds correctly on all target distros. That's *VERY* far from the Gerrit workflow, where things are checked, and then patch approved. I don't think we could just move from git.debian.org to gerrit without having the full blows and wissels | 20:17 |
| zigo | because of that. | 20:17 |
| johnthetubaguy_ | yeah, that's a good point for next time, on the depends-on | 20:17 |
| notmorgan | zigo: and hopefully isn't too much extra effort while the -infra stuff is being worked on. | 20:17 |
| zigo | notmorgan: Ok, will do. | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | zigo: fantastic. :) | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | zigo : ok, well, it's pretty easy to make jenkins watch a git repo instead of using an in repo hook | 20:18 |
| fungi | zigo: there is a gerrit-jenkins plugin you can use to trigger jobs from the gerrit event stream, probably extrement similar to what you already have, but we can discuss that elsewhere | 20:18 |
| mordred | dhellmann: right - but then we're pushing untested commits into openstack repos | 20:18 |
| fungi | er, extremely | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | mordred : are they being tested in their current repos? | 20:18 |
| mordred | because the current process is to push and test and push and test until it turns green | 20:18 |
| mordred | dhellmann: only post merge | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | I see | 20:18 |
| ttx | mordred: zigo asks for an extension of the grace period until end of August, does taht sound reasonable ? | 20:18 |
| mordred | ttx: yes | 20:19 |
| flaper87 | ttx: yes | 20:19 |
| notmorgan | ttx: wfm | 20:19 |
| mordred | ttx: I think we can have made the progress we need by then | 20:19 |
| sdague | yes | 20:19 |
| dims | yes | 20:19 |
| ttx | I can live with that | 20:19 |
| thingee | mordred: hi, still asking about the timeline for things to migrate? | 20:19 |
| fungi | from an infra perspective, seems like a reasonable request to me | 20:19 |
| johnthetubaguy_ | +1 from me | 20:19 |
| mordred | \o/ | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | ok, well, I don't think we need to actually change anything aside from having some public discussion on the ML about where things stand, so zigo or mordred please post that | 20:19 |
| zigo | +1 | 20:19 |
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| mordred | thingee: luckily, even though there are a lot of repos, the process is the same for all of them, so once we have it done for one, we have it done for all | 20:19 |
| mordred | dhellmann: ++ | 20:20 |
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| flaper87 | mordred: last famous words | 20:20 |
| ttx | #agreed grace period for Packaging-Deb extended to end of August | 20:20 |
| mordred | flaper87: :) | 20:20 |
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| dims | mordred : carved some time in your new gig for this? :) | 20:20 |
| ttx | #action zigo or mordred to update the list on status, if only to explain to contributors wanabees where to go to participate today | 20:20 |
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| ttx | because ultimately that's my concern | 20:20 |
| mordred | dims: of course - debian packaging is very important to my new overlords :) | 20:21 |
| * amrith makes a note to take present for mordred to ann arbor next week | 20:21 | |
| dims | :) | 20:21 |
| thingee | mordred: heh | 20:21 |
| ttx | We say we have a team, but there is no clear way to join it | 20:21 |
| zigo | BTW, would you feel better if we moved out of OFTC in #debian-openstack to something in freenode under #openstack-something? | 20:21 |
| mordred | ttx: agreed | 20:21 |
| dims | ttx : yep. agree | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | zigo : yes | 20:21 |
| ttx | zigo: that would definitely help | 20:21 |
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| notmorgan | zigo: would be nice to be here on freenode. | 20:21 |
| thingee | zigo: that would be a good start | 20:21 |
| zigo | I can arrange that. | 20:21 |
| ttx | will have to do it anyway | 20:21 |
| zigo | What channel name do you propose? | 20:21 |
| mordred | #openstack-debian ? | 20:21 |
| zigo | #openstack-deb-pkg ? | 20:21 |
| notmorgan | zigo: openstack-deb-packaging ? | 20:21 |
| thingee | openstack-debian | 20:21 |
| mordred | anyof those | 20:21 |
| notmorgan | or what thingee said | 20:21 |
| zigo | Ok. | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | zigo: ++ | 20:22 |
| * fungi votes we just move the openstack channels from freenode to oftc instead | 20:22 | |
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| mordred | ++ | 20:22 |
| ttx | also duplicating/moving the content in that alioth page to the wiki or some doc repo would help too | 20:22 |
| dims | LOL fungi | 20:22 |
| AJaeger | zigo: or at least have the channel you currently use documented in the governance repo | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | fungi: hehe | 20:22 |
| mtreinish | fungi: heh | 20:22 |
| thingee | stole it from mordred 300ms later | 20:22 |
| mordred | warning - we've hit a max at irc channel registrations and are still working on a solution to that | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | zigo : please add the channel to the team description in the governance repo when you have it set up | 20:22 |
| mordred | so, you konw, if the irc channel takes a bit to be fully integrated, it's also not zigo's fault :) | 20:22 |
| AJaeger | mordred: only for gerritbot, not for registeration overall | 20:22 |
| mtreinish | mordred: what's the max? | 20:22 |
| zigo | fungi: I can arrange help from the OFTC IRC ops if we move there! :) | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | mordred: a second bot! | 20:22 |
| notmorgan | mordred: :P | 20:22 |
| AJaeger | mtreinish: 120 | 20:22 |
| ttx | OK, I'll abandon the review | 20:23 |
| mordred | notmorgan: yah. a second bot is, in fact, the answer | 20:23 |
| notmorgan | mordred: sadly =/ | 20:23 |
| zigo | IIRC there's even already a channel for it. | 20:23 |
| mordred | AJaeger: yah. that | 20:23 |
| thingee | freenode was not ready for the big tent | 20:23 |
| AJaeger | notmorgan: patches welcome ;) | 20:23 |
| fungi | zigo: yep, so can i (and we've talked to them before) but moving all of the openstack community is no small task. we've considered it more than once | 20:23 |
| zigo | That I already added... | 20:23 |
| * thingee misses the days of just openstack-dev | 20:23 | |
| russellb | clearly we should self host a hip new chat thing | 20:24 |
| fungi | i recommend hanging out in the same channel on both oftc and freenode just because many in the debian community may expect to find you on oftc | 20:24 |
| ttx | anything else on that topic ? Anyone disagreeing on extending the grace period ? | 20:24 |
| notmorgan | russellb: i hear we should just use slack | 20:24 |
| mordred | russellb: actually - turns out hipchat and slack both have user max limits | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | ttx: let's change topic :) | 20:24 |
| mordred | that openstack is in excess of | 20:24 |
| * ttx empties a bucket of eels on notmorgan | 20:24 | |
| fungi | i actually reside in equivalents of many of our more popular channels on oftc in case we ever need to make an emergency move | 20:24 |
| russellb | oh? | 20:24 |
| russellb | how about rocket.chat | 20:24 |
| mordred | russellb: yup | 20:24 |
| russellb | anyway, moving on | 20:24 |
| mordred | they max out around 2k users | 20:25 |
| russellb | weak | 20:25 |
| ttx | #topic Add 'type:horizon-plugin' tag | 20:25 |
| mordred | yup | 20:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add 'type:horizon-plugin' tag (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:25 | |
| flaper87 | mordred: pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.... peanuts | 20:25 |
| ttx | focus, team, focus | 20:25 |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/329479 | 20:25 |
| russellb | this seems like an easy +1 | 20:25 |
| * dhellmann thinks of peanuts | 20:25 | |
| ttx | TL;DR: This is a new type: tag for deliverables so that we can describe which ones are Horizon plugins. | 20:25 |
| dougwig | russellb: don't jinx it. | 20:25 |
| flaper87 | +1 to this one! | 20:25 |
| ttx | was missing a couple +1s last time I looked | 20:25 |
| flaper87 | there are 7 now | 20:25 |
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| thingee | tag very much appreciated | 20:26 |
| ttx | Looks like we have the number now | 20:26 |
| ttx | Alright, approved | 20:26 |
| mtreinish | ttx: should we propose similar tags for other plugin repos? (like devstack or tempest) | 20:26 |
| ttx | mtreinish: we looked into that -- there aren't enough to justify it right now | 20:26 |
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| ttx | (from a release management perspective) | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | mmh, it's weird there aren't enough devstack plugins | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | I mean, surprising, mostly | 20:27 |
| david-lyle | if you count the repos that are both service and plugin then there are | 20:27 |
| ttx | shoudln't prevent anyone from proposing though | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : eventually, when there are more examples of each | 20:27 |
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| dhellmann | david-lyle : from a release perspective, if it's in the same repo, we only care that it's a service | 20:27 |
| david-lyle | the problem is one repo is now being used for 3 things | 20:27 |
| mtreinish | ttx, dhellmann: well tempest has very few standalone plugins (most went in repo) but devstack should have a fair number of them | 20:27 |
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| david-lyle | dhellmann, for release true, for anyone else it's confusing | 20:28 |
| ttx | david-lyle: I guess the tag describes deliverables that are standalone plugins | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | david-lyle : we're looking for ways to organize the content of releases.openstack.org to make it easy to find the deliverable you're looking for | 20:28 |
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| dhellmann | mtreinish : are they in their own deliverables (not repos)? | 20:28 |
| ttx | Also the horizon plugin names were pretty inconsistent, so that makes sure users can identify them all | 20:28 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: http://git.openstack.org/cgit everything that starts with devstack-plugin as a start | 20:28 |
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| mtreinish | there might be others there too (I'll do a ctrl+f for devstack) | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : are those things that users want to download and use? or are they developer tools that aren't released? | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | for releases.o.o we only care about things that are actually being released | 20:29 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: there was nothing in the horizon tag about releases (unless I missed that) | 20:30 |
| ttx | This is a bit orthogonal to the topic, maybe we can discuss that in open discussion if there is time left ? | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | this isn't about categorizing everything we have, it's about categorizing things that show up on the releases site | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 20:30 |
| ttx | we should have some time | 20:30 |
| ttx | hopefully | 20:30 |
| dims | mtreinish : interesting angle | 20:30 |
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| ttx | #topic Add 'level playing field' requirement | 20:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add 'level playing field' requirement (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:30 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/329448 | 20:30 |
| ttx | So... I think that the value "OpenStack" provides, as an open source organization, is to create workspaces where open collaboration across multiple organizations can happen | 20:31 |
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| ttx | To recognize that, I'd like us to say that an official "OpenStack project" should be something anyone from any organization can join and contribute to as an equal | 20:31 |
| ttx | And if a project team is proposed in the future with such a scope that developers from a specific organization (or a closed set of specific organizations) have a structural advantage, we should not make it an official OpenStack project | 20:31 |
| ttx | It can be an unofficial project alright, but we should limit the "official OpenStack project" label to things that are level playing fields | 20:31 |
| mordred | I agree that goal and sentiment | 20:31 |
| thingee | +1 | 20:31 |
| notmorgan | +1 | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | yup | 20:31 |
| sdague | how does this apply to things like oslo.vmware or oswin ? | 20:31 |
| russellb | it applies per project team | 20:32 |
| ttx | now it's just a guideline, and we'll have to interpret it, but I think it's a statement we need to make | 20:32 |
| maishsk | ttx:what sparked this? Anything specific? | 20:32 |
| russellb | so, to Oslo | 20:32 |
| russellb | not oslo.vmware | 20:32 |
| ttx | maishsk: no | 20:32 |
| johnthetubaguy_ | +1 but sdague has a good question | 20:32 |
| ttx | maishsk: it's more preventive | 20:32 |
| dims | russellb : right, that was my observation on the review | 20:32 |
| russellb | similar to it applying to Cinder overall, not Cinder drivers | 20:32 |
| mordred | I like russellb's take on that question | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | I think ttx replied to that on the review | 20:32 |
| ttx | sdague: I answered on the review | 20:32 |
| mordred | cinder and oslo are the projects | 20:32 |
| thingee | russellb: +1 | 20:32 |
| mtreinish | ttx: is there any relationship with the single vendor diversity tag? | 20:32 |
| sdague | winstackers is a dedicated team | 20:32 |
| dims | if oswin wants to be under big tent then they will run into trouble | 20:33 |
| sdague | https://github.com/openstack/governance/blob/7ef0cf16a761c947891504f15f5463adcf99cf07/reference/projects.yaml#L4183-L4208 | 20:33 |
| russellb | sdague: ah, yes, that may get hit by this | 20:33 |
| russellb | sorry | 20:33 |
| thingee | mtreinish: I think that's just a result of giving your organization an advantage in a project? | 20:33 |
| ttx | oslo.vmware is part of Oslo which is a level playing field. We judge project teams, not specific deliverables | 20:33 |
| thingee | poor diversity | 20:33 |
| mordred | sdague: but are they all at microsoft and are microsoft people the only ones who really could conceivably join? | 20:33 |
| mordred | that would be my litmus test I tihnk | 20:33 |
| thingee | for some, not all | 20:33 |
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| ttx | winstackers, yes, we'll have to look into that one if someone can point to an unfair advantage | 20:33 |
| sdague | http://stackalytics.com/?module=winstackers-group | 20:33 |
| russellb | i'm really not that concerned though | 20:33 |
| mtreinish | thingee: right, so does that mean having the tag mean it's not a level playing field? | 20:34 |
| sdague | you need windows licenses to be effective with it | 20:34 |
| russellb | it's clearly about windows integration, not creating a whole full project / API that only works on windows | 20:34 |
| mordred | some single-vendor teams are just single-vendor because nobody else happens to care- not because there is a structural advantage to people at the company in question | 20:34 |
| russellb | meh | 20:34 |
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| thingee | mtreinish: I don't think so. I meant to say it *could* be the result of poor diversity | 20:34 |
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| ttx | sdague: I'm not sure anyone in winstackers benefits from a structural advantage though | 20:34 |
| mtreinish | thingee: ah, ok | 20:34 |
| sdague | anyway, it's an edge, and it's fine to have judgment on edges | 20:34 |
| russellb | sdague: ++ | 20:34 |
| ttx | sdague: definitely an edge | 20:34 |
| mordred | sdague: I think it would be hard to argue that windows licenses are a scarce commodity, much as I don't personally have any | 20:34 |
| mordred | and yes - wonderful edge to discuss | 20:34 |
| ttx | sdague: probably the only one in the current project list on the edge | 20:34 |
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| sdague | ok, it's close enough to nova, that I figured I'd raise it, as it's critical for hyperv support | 20:35 |
| thingee | mtreinish: I think poor diversity could also happen when one company has an interest in something in openstack, but none competitors/others aren't interested at the same time. | 20:35 |
| ttx | mtreinish: so that's an interesting question | 20:35 |
| annegentle | I don't think this is a tag, it's a preventative measure to avoid a project governance application we wouldn't accept? | 20:35 |
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| dims | ttx : mordred : do we want to say "type:service"? | 20:35 |
| sdague | given that nova doesn't have out of tree driver support, but some of the in tree drivers use support libraries for complex logic | 20:35 |
| ttx | mtreinish: basically, most non-level playing fields are single-vendor as a result | 20:35 |
| notmorgan | annegentle: more, clearly defining grounds of why the application wouldn't be accepted | 20:35 |
| ttx | mtreinish: BUT to me it's a transient state, not an end goal | 20:36 |
| notmorgan | annegentle: less about "preventing", some maybe, but others would need assement | 20:36 |
| thingee | notmorgan: +1 | 20:36 |
| dims | oswin exists just to serve nova, cinder, etc | 20:36 |
| annegentle | I talked ttx's ear off about this, that I personally find many many more social structures can prevent a level playing field, but if this is one measurable barrier to entry then I'm ok with documenting it. | 20:36 |
| notmorgan | annegentle: i think winstackers is the shining example of needing assesment (and probably would be ok) but could be hit at face value. | 20:36 |
| dims | and they requested oslo as a home to start with and we declined | 20:37 |
| ttx | annegentle: yes, this one is about structural advantage to specific organizations due to the way the project team scope is set up | 20:37 |
| ttx | but there are other forms of discrimination | 20:37 |
| sdague | is the thinking that this is really what applied in the poppy situation? | 20:37 |
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| ttx | sdague: for some of us yes | 20:37 |
| sdague | because unless you have a big CDN contract, the project isn't useful | 20:37 |
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| ttx | sdague: this is about contribution, not usage | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | isn't this also in anticipation of the fallout from the neutron stadium dissolution? | 20:38 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: is it? I guess that was part of my question for examples | 20:38 |
| ttx | sdague: nobody in the Poppy team had an unfair advantage against others | 20:38 |
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| ttx | sdague: so it was a level playing field | 20:38 |
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| dhellmann | sdague : maybe that's just me? I think having this sort of rule in place will be useful when all of those driver teams start thinking about what to do next | 20:39 |
| david-lyle | my concern is that the wording is so vague and subjective that this provides no real benefit over the current subject and vague criteria which is the TC makes a judgement call | 20:39 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: IF the stadium dislocates and BigCorp wants to set up a project team to host the development of their driver which connects to pricy proprietary hardware... would fall into that new rules yes | 20:39 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: right | 20:39 |
| sdague | I'm fine if this is about not having 20 official vendor specific projects for networking | 20:39 |
| annegentle | ttx: you just answered the question I was typing :) welldone sir | 20:39 |
| ttx | sdague: ++ | 20:40 |
| sdague | but, I'd be more fine if we just said that | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | david-lyle : how would you make this more specific? | 20:40 |
| thingee | david-lyle: I'd very much like each one to be carefully decided on a case-by-case basis by the tc. | 20:40 |
| sdague | instead of the vague level playing field language | 20:40 |
| ttx | sdague: I think saying that openstack projects present a fair open collaboration space is useful | 20:40 |
| amrith | david-lyle, I don't believe it would be easy to make this more specific without calling out specific projects by name. | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | this language doesn't seem vague to me, I don't understand why it seems that way to others. | 20:40 |
| amrith | but I would love some alternate verbiage. | 20:40 |
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| thingee | dhellmann: I agree | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: ++ | 20:40 |
| amrith | the language strikes me as pretty clear, and a very solid basis to interpre on. | 20:41 |
| ttx | yes, it is pretty clear wording. Thanks to amrith | 20:41 |
| amrith | thx ttx | 20:41 |
| notmorgan | the first iteration was much more vague | 20:41 |
| mestery | dhellmann: Agree | 20:41 |
| notmorgan | this is this is straight forward enough to cover basing decisions on it. | 20:42 |
| sdague | does this apply to fuel? or tripleo, which are the product installers for single companies? | 20:42 |
| notmorgan | imo | 20:42 |
| notmorgan | sdague: fair question. | 20:42 |
| mtreinish | sdague: that's a good question | 20:42 |
| thingee | sdague: do I need special stuff to contribute to fuel? | 20:42 |
| ttx | sdague: why would it ? | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | sdague : it would apply to any project driven mainly by one company where that company pushed contributors from other companies out in some way | 20:42 |
| sdague | "The project shall not benefit a single vendor, or | 20:42 |
| sdague | a single vendors product offerings" | 20:42 |
| russellb | in theory, from a technical standpoing, everything is there that you need | 20:42 |
| ttx | russellb: exactly | 20:42 |
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| mestery | dhellmann: Not just pushed out, but provided barriers to even enter | 20:43 |
| ttx | sdague: you can take it and start your own Mirantis. No secret sauce | 20:43 |
| russellb | politics preventing cooperation more than technology | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | I don't think neither of them benefit a single product/offering. | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | mestery : yes, that | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | russellb : right | 20:43 |
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| * amrith tries to parse flaper87's double negative | 20:43 | |
| dhellmann | russellb : well, both | 20:43 |
| * dims listening intently | 20:43 | |
| sdague | barriers to entry come in lots of forms | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | amrith: crap, I knew I shouldn't have done that! :P | 20:43 |
| thingee | sdague: I would expect the TC would make this argument as ttx mentioned if it was brought up. just like any other project on a case-by-case basis | 20:43 |
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| annegentle | ttx: does this patch landing mean any changes to the current projects list? I think not but want to be sure. | 20:43 |
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| ttx | annegentle: not unless you propose one | 20:44 |
| thingee | annegentle: yes current list | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | amrith: thanks for pointing out. I was like: "either or neither... o well" | 20:44 |
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| thingee | annegentle: but as ttx mentioned, it would have to be proposed and discussed | 20:44 |
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| annegentle | thingee: ttx ah. okay. | 20:44 |
| ttx | This has enough votes to pass if I vote for it. Anyone objecting ? I bet we'll have a fair number of abstentions waiting for the first case-by-case happening | 20:44 |
| annegentle | does this force any additional conversation about how individual projects are governing their own drivers? | 20:44 |
| dims | sdague : one barrier that i have heard is that "mirantis has all the fuel engineers, so i am not able to hire folks to work on fuel related stuff" | 20:44 |
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| russellb | dims: that's pretty weak | 20:45 |
| johnthetubaguy_ | Well, I like merging what we have as a good starting point, and see how we go | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | dims : that's only a barrier if those engineers refuse to work with anyone who doesn't work at mirantis | 20:45 |
| thingee | annegentle: that would be completely up to them and their relationship with the vendor/drivers | 20:45 |
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| thingee | with their* | 20:45 |
| annegentle | I still have a concern about interpreting the lack of driver example... | 20:45 |
| dims | russellb : dhellmann : right, giving an example that i heard recently | 20:45 |
| annegentle | I'm not abstaining, I'm still thinking... | 20:45 |
| thingee | some projects have made it pretty clear they want nothing to do with their drivers, and to focus purely on the interface they provide. | 20:45 |
| amrith | dims conversely if you wanted to contribute a fuel plugin, the fuel team is welcoming. so I submit to you that it is an open and level playing field | 20:46 |
| russellb | i wish we had a bit more consistency around driver approach, not sure why the battles have to be so different across projects | 20:46 |
| dims | amrith : agree | 20:46 |
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| russellb | but that's for another day ... | 20:46 |
| annegentle | thingee: right. okay. | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | russellb : ++ | 20:46 |
| thingee | russellb: +1 | 20:46 |
| ttx | OK, I'll approve it now | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | ttx: ++ | 20:46 |
| annegentle | russellb: it isn't easy to understand from outside-in | 20:46 |
| annegentle | russellb: so, yeah +1 | 20:46 |
| ttx | unless someone else wants to formally register their vote | 20:46 |
| russellb | for sure | 20:46 |
| russellb | not easy to understand from the inside-in | 20:47 |
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| ttx | alrigth approved | 20:47 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:47 | |
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| ttx | I have 3 topics | 20:47 |
| russellb | no TC meeting next week? | 20:47 |
| dims | So no meeting next week? | 20:47 |
| ttx | We'll have most TC members in Ann Arbor next week for the leadership training, so we'll skip that meeting | 20:47 |
| dims | :) | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | for those interested, https://review.openstack.org/332465 will reflect the new type:horizon-plugin tag | 20:47 |
| russellb | (jinx) | 20:47 |
| ttx | Next meeting on July 5th | 20:47 |
| ttx | We have (ahem) a small delay in the P/Q naming process | 20:48 |
| notmorgan | ttx: i am going to probably skip jul 5th, fwiw. | 20:48 |
| thingee | +1 skip | 20:48 |
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| notmorgan | and +1 to skip next week. | 20:48 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/332193/ | 20:48 |
| ttx | I'll approve that delay since at this point it looks like a typo | 20:48 |
| sdague | july 5th is often a holiday in the US | 20:48 |
| sdague | depending on org | 20:48 |
| notmorgan | sdague: yeah and a lot of people may take the day off as well | 20:49 |
| thingee | sdague: food coma recovering from bbq | 20:49 |
| notmorgan | sdague: since it'll be a tuesday. | 20:49 |
| sdague | notmorgan: sure, that too :) | 20:49 |
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| notmorgan | post a 3 day weekend | 20:49 |
| flaper87 | Let's skip next week and see if we should skip the week after over email as we've done in the past | 20:49 |
| fungi | or reattaching digits blown off by small explosives | 20:49 |
| ttx | sdague: ah. ok, please add yourself to the absentee list if you can't make it | 20:49 |
| sdague | ttx: will do | 20:49 |
| ttx | and I'll skip it if we can't have 8 people around | 20:49 |
| jroll | fungi++ | 20:49 |
| * gothicmindfood hands fungi a safety sparkler | 20:49 | |
| notmorgan | gothicmindfood: they make safety sparklets? | 20:49 |
| gothicmindfood | notmorgan: they're safe as long as you don't stick them in your eye. | 20:50 |
| ttx | mtreinish: we can continue the discussion on other potential type:plugin* tags if you want | 20:50 |
| amrith | notmorgan ... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=nl.anndroid.sterretje&hl=en | 20:50 |
| thingee | gothicmindfood: those sparks give a pinch feeling. that's not safe :( | 20:50 |
| notmorgan | gothicmindfood: what about eating them? | 20:50 |
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| mtreinish | ttx: sure, we can | 20:50 |
| gothicmindfood | notmorgan: tastebuds are overrated | 20:50 |
| mordred | gothicmindfood: what about making your friend eat them? is that safe? | 20:50 |
| fungi | are tempest and devstack plugins likely to end up on releases.o.o? do they generally tag releases at all? | 20:51 |
| * jroll will not be celebrating july 4th with mordred and notmorgan | 20:51 | |
| annegentle | is the board meeting Tuesday of next week? | 20:51 |
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| mtreinish | fungi: some tempest plugins do, like the designate plugin does | 20:51 |
| jroll | fungi: I'd suspect people will branch devstack plugins | 20:51 |
| mordred | jroll: there'll be PIE though | 20:51 |
| russellb | annegentle: yes | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | fungi : I think not, but I'm not opposed to having the type tags if others want them for some reason. | 20:51 |
| amrith | ttx, you had 3 things? | 20:51 |
| ttx | mtreinish: I guess what made type:horizon-plugin compelling is that it answered a question users had about deliverables, since those need to be found to de deployed alongside services | 20:51 |
| ttx | amrith: 3rd is ^ | 20:51 |
| gothicmindfood | annegentle: ruh roh - did we schedule training during a board meeting? | 20:51 |
| mtreinish | fungi: devstack plugins get branched normally (if people remember to) | 20:51 |
| mordred | gothicmindfood: yup | 20:51 |
| jroll | mordred: I'll need to eat and run then :D | 20:51 |
| russellb | only affects mordred | 20:51 |
| mestery | Yeah | 20:51 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: might have been the other way around | 20:52 |
| gothicmindfood | mordred: sandwiches > than board meetings | 20:52 |
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| mordred | gothicmindfood: +1000 | 20:52 |
| russellb | truth | 20:52 |
| jroll | ++ | 20:52 |
| mordred | gothicmindfood: I HAVE EATEN ONE OF THOSE SANDWICHES | 20:52 |
| * gothicmindfood is looking forward to seeing leadership training attendees next week! | 20:52 | |
| dims | have fun you all at Ann Arbor. wish i could make it | 20:52 |
| mtreinish | ttx: was it? I think people have questions about all the things. Not just those which are deployed | 20:52 |
| ttx | mtreinish: tempest/devstack plugins are more dev-oriented so slightly less useful downstream. But I wouldn't object to them | 20:52 |
| * mordred is looking forward to seeing michigan in the summer | 20:52 | |
| flaper87 | gothicmindfood: mordred I want one of those sandwiches | 20:53 |
| mordred | flaper87: you will eat at least one | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | gothicmindfood: mordred at least one | 20:53 |
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| mtreinish | ttx: well I can propose something and we can bikeshed from there | 20:53 |
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| mtreinish | ttx: are there other types of plugins besides those 3? | 20:53 |
| mtreinish | *others worth adding a tag for | 20:53 |
| ttx | mtreinish: I proposed that tag because I wanted to be able to answer that question on releases.o.o. Like dhellmann said, those tempest/devstack plugins are not really released so that doesn't help there, hence why I skipped them | 20:53 |
| dims | fuel plugins ! :) | 20:54 |
| ttx | mtreinish: rally plugins maybe | 20:54 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: anything to add about next week ? | 20:54 |
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| mtreinish | dims: I've leave that tag to you :) | 20:54 |
| dims | :) | 20:54 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, ttx ... others ... is there any plan for a dinner as a group? | 20:54 |
| mtreinish | ttx: I can do a scan, and see how many things there are | 20:54 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: not much new - I scheduled dinner for all of us for Tuesday night at Zingerman's roadhouse | 20:54 |
| * jroll invites anyone hanging around past thursday to come hang out in his 'hood, there's surely campgrounds and hotels nearby | 20:55 | |
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| annegentle | gothicmindfood: how hot/humid is it? | 20:55 |
| gothicmindfood | also, mestery is unable to attend, last minute, so if there's someone who wants to book a last minute flight to come out and be our 20th, anyone can let me know! | 20:55 |
| gothicmindfood | annegentle: I will arrive tomorrow, but apparently there was a huge lightning storm last night! | 20:55 |
| jroll | annegentle: it's been 80s and fairly humid lately | 20:55 |
| gothicmindfood | jroll: comments on the weather? | 20:55 |
| fungi | annegentle: i'm not finding any recent board meeting reminders/invites posted to the foundation@ ml, but there's https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/28Jun2016BoardMeeting | 20:56 |
| gothicmindfood | sounds about right. | 20:56 |
| jroll | I'd certainly bring shorts | 20:56 |
| ttx | also Air France just decided not to strike on Monday, so I might actually make it | 20:56 |
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| annegentle | jroll: ok, good to know. Actually similar to Austin right now oddly enough. | 20:56 |
| annegentle | ttx: eesh. | 20:56 |
| flaper87 | ttx: good stuff | 20:56 |
| jroll | annegentle: the difference is this is normal, not cold :P | 20:56 |
| annegentle | fungi: I got a reminder this morning I want to say | 20:56 |
| ttx | we have more strike days than non-strike days currently | 20:56 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: maybe they'll strike later in the week so you can hang with me in Ann Arbor longer! :) | 20:56 |
| jroll | looks like rain next week: https://www.wunderground.com/q/zmw:48103.1.99999 | 20:56 |
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| annegentle | OpenStack umbrella! | 20:56 |
| jroll | :D | 20:57 |
| * flaper87 hates rain | 20:57 | |
| ttx | For those who missed it, I recommend SpamapS's thread on Architecture WG | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | oh well | 20:57 |
| * annegentle loves Michigan | 20:57 | |
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| jroll | but yes, michigan is beautiful this time of year, if you can stay for the weekend I'd highly recommend it | 20:57 |
| fungi | annegentle: oh, yep http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2016-June/002395.html (just realized i was looking at the foundation-board@ archives instead) | 20:57 |
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| amrith | thx ttx, have a good evening all ... | 20:58 |
| ttx | Alright. If nothing else... we can close with 2 minutes early | 20:58 |
| Rockyg | board meeting 6.28 | 20:58 |
| annegentle | nice! | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | have a good one, everyone | 20:59 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone | 20:59 |
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| russellb | bye! | 20:59 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 20:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 21 20:59:20 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-21-20.01.html | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-21-20.01.txt | 20:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-21-20.01.log.html | 20:59 |
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| aleksey3 | Hi all. I'm a developer from Nexenta. Where can I address to speed up our driver merging for Newton release? | 21:46 |
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| dhellmann | aleksey3 : the neutron team hangs out in #openstack-neutron on this irc network | 21:48 |
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