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| yamahata | hello | 05:01 |
|---|---|---|
| s3wong | hi | 05:01 |
| natarajk | hi | 05:01 |
| dougwig | o/ | 05:01 |
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| yamahata | #startmeeting servicevm-device-manager | 05:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 8 05:01:38 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 05:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 05:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager' | 05:01 |
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| yamahata | wow so many people | 05:01 |
| yamahata | #topic Announcement | 05:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:02 | |
| yamahata | today bob skips meeting unfortunately | 05:02 |
| yamahata | I pushed first code to gerrit system | 05:02 |
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| dougwig | link? | 05:02 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:stackforge/tacker+branch:master+topic:bp/tacker-api,n,z | 05:02 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:stackforge/python-tackerclient+branch:master+topic:bp/tacker-api,n,z | 05:03 |
| yamahata | Although it needs api review and code review, obvious patch(removing neutron file, rename neutron -> tacker) can be merged at first. | 05:03 |
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| yamahata | I marked it as obvious by adding my +1. | 05:03 |
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| yamahata | If you have any issues on those obvious patches, please add -1 and push it back to me. | 05:04 |
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| yamahata | The server can run as standalone server and provides its api. | 05:04 |
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| yamahata | The next things to do is to refine API and implement l3-plugin with servicevm server. | 05:05 |
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| yamahata | I've uploaded a blueprint for l3-plugin with servicevm | 05:05 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: link? | 05:06 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/105078/ | 05:06 |
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| yamahata | So we show the roadmap for servicevm and Bob and Karthik can push their own specs/patches as in future it can be consolidated based on roadmap | 05:07 |
| natarajk | yamahata: thanks for links. I'll review this week. | 05:08 |
| yamahata | For api review I've upload it to gerrit | 05:08 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103724/ | 05:08 |
| yamahata | that's all from me to announce. | 05:09 |
| yamahata | anyone else to announce? | 05:09 |
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| yamahata | seems nothing. let's move on | 05:10 |
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| yamahata | #topic Open Discussion | 05:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:10 | |
| yamahata | #undo | 05:11 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x2c8c510> | 05:11 |
| yamahata | #topic servicevm spec review | 05:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "servicevm spec review (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:11 | |
| yamahata | Do we have anything to discuss with API now? | 05:11 |
| yamahata | The detailed discussion can be done with gerrit. | 05:11 |
| s3wong | yamahata: sure | 05:12 |
| yamahata | At least Bob gave his feedback on google-doc. So I'll address them. | 05:12 |
| yamahata | Okay seems nothing. | 05:12 |
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| yamahata | #topic Open Discussion | 05:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:12 | |
| yamahata | Does anyone have anything? | 05:13 |
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| yamahata | If no, I'd like to discuss on dnrm. | 05:14 |
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| yamahata | natarajk: So far I've thought on how to consolidate/integrate dnrm code. | 05:14 |
| yamahata | natarajk: let me check my understanding. | 05:14 |
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| natarajk | yamahata: sure, go ahead | 05:15 |
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| yamahata | At first, the terminology is quite different. | 05:15 |
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| yamahata | With dnrm terminology, resource is ~= VM. it might be physical appliance or virtual appliance. | 05:16 |
| natarajk | Yes | 05:16 |
| yamahata | with servicevm terminology, it's hosting device. or simply device | 05:16 |
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| natarajk | Do you mention the hosting device as "resource" in your spec ? | 05:17 |
| yamahata | Do you stick to "resource"? or is "hosting device" acceptable? | 05:17 |
| yamahata | natarajk: yes. | 05:18 |
| yamahata | I think mostly same meaning. | 05:18 |
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| yamahata | Or any better terminology? | 05:18 |
| natarajk | for physical appliance, "hosting device" terminology might be confusing | 05:18 |
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| yamahata | To be honest, I don't care which terminology personally. | 05:20 |
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| yamahata | Bob introduced "hosting device". | 05:20 |
| yamahata | Unfortunately we don't have Bob today, let's continue at gerrit or next meeting | 05:20 |
| yamahata | continue the discussion | 05:21 |
| natarajk | Ok. we need to find something common on for both virtual and physical appliance, i guess | 05:21 |
| yamahata | Yes. | 05:21 |
| natarajk | if it's only virtual appliance, "hosting device" might be ok. | 05:21 |
| yamahata | Okay, then next termnology is "driver". | 05:22 |
| natarajk | we can continue the discussion. | 05:22 |
| yamahata | I think "driver" in dnrm is the code to spin up/donw VM and so on. | 05:23 |
| yamahata | Correct? | 05:23 |
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| natarajk | Yes. But we are open to common terms there | 05:24 |
| natarajk | let me read your specs in detail this week. | 05:24 |
| yamahata | I just confirmed to make sure. "driver" is common. | 05:24 |
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| yamahata | The dnrm code doesn't allow "template" in servicevm terminology. | 05:25 |
| yamahata | basically "template" is "driver" name + parameters to nova client. | 05:25 |
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| yamahata | So i think "template" is superset of dnrm "driver" | 05:26 |
| natarajk | Yes. Those were made as configurable in plugin configuration file | 05:26 |
| yamahata | Is it acceptalbe to use "template" instead of dnrm "driver"? | 05:27 |
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| yamahata | For dnrm driver, no parameter will be specified. | 05:27 |
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| natarajk | thinking ... | 05:28 |
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| yamahata | Ah, this is not a final call. We can discuss with actual code later. | 05:28 |
| yamahata | I'd like to check my direction with others. | 05:28 |
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| yamahata | before starting actual coding. | 05:29 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: if the parameters are for provider (service drivers) to initialize, it is more commonly driver entry point, or in flavor framework it is metadata | 05:29 |
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| yamahata | Maybe I should write details it in spec. | 05:29 |
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| sweston | yamahata: we will need some time to review this. May we sync up with you later in the week? | 05:30 |
| yamahata | s3wong: Agree. Later we can utilize flavor framework | 05:30 |
| yamahata | sweston: Sure. | 05:30 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: reminder: last week we agreed that this meeting will be 30 minutes :-) | 05:31 |
| yamahata | We don't have to have conclusion now. | 05:31 |
| sweston | yamahata: thanks | 05:31 |
| yamahata | s3wong: thanks. | 05:31 |
| yamahata | anything else to discuss? | 05:31 |
| yamahata | okay thanks everyone. see you next week. | 05:32 |
| s3wong | thanks! | 05:32 |
| natarajk | thanks | 05:32 |
| yamahata | #endmeeting | 05:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 05:32 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 8 05:32:32 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 05:32 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-08-05.01.html | 05:32 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-08-05.01.txt | 05:32 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-08-05.01.log.html | 05:32 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 8 15:00:38 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 15:00 |
| bauzas | o/ | 15:00 |
| bauzas | uh, \o | 15:00 |
| * n0ano mutters about lefties | 15:01 | |
| jaypipes | heh | 15:01 |
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| mspreitz | hi | 15:02 |
| ericfriz | hi | 15:02 |
| lisaZ | hi | 15:02 |
| n0ano | well, we have 2 completely non-contentious items today, should be short :-) | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | #topic code forklift | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code forklift (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:02 | |
| bauzas | n0ano: don't promise that kind of thing :) | 15:02 |
| n0ano | note the smiley | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | As I read the email threads, the concensus seems to be... | 15:03 |
| bauzas | so I guess it's my turn ? | 15:03 |
| n0ano | 1) Clean up `all` of the nova APIs... | 15:03 |
| n0ano | 2) Split out a fully functional gantt... | 15:04 |
| bauzas | 3) Take a coffee and rest | 15:04 |
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| n0ano | 3) Gantt immediately becomes the default scheduler | 15:04 |
| bauzas | indeed | 15:04 |
| n0ano | what was your take bauzas | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | yey, I thought about that | 15:05 |
| bauzas | I can understand the worries here | 15:05 |
| bauzas | so, | 15:05 |
| bauzas | I think the main difference is when we split | 15:06 |
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| jaypipes | n0ano: it's step 1) that needs a lot of effort right now, IMO. 2) and 3) will naturally happen when the APIs are cleaned up. | 15:06 |
| bauzas | not that much difference, because if Gantt code is 100% nova-scheduler, Tempest and CI would remain the same | 15:06 |
| bauzas | I'm just worried about 1) | 15:07 |
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| bauzas | we need to get a consensus on them | 15:07 |
| n0ano | jaypipes, I think 2) is harder than we think (based upon my experience the last time we tried to do the split), hence my perference (voted down) to do the split early rather than late | 15:07 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: I think you had difficulties because the code was not properly splitted | 15:08 |
| n0ano | bauzas, the critical changes are the client library and the isolate db, both of which are being worked on | 15:08 |
| jaypipes | n0ano: the split will be much easier if 1) is done properly and fully. | 15:08 |
| bauzas | n0ano: yey, but for both of them, we don't have a full agreement over them | 15:08 |
| bauzas | n0ano: take your "delete aggregate" question | 15:09 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that's still something unmanaged | 15:09 |
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| n0ano | well, it's pretty clear to me we're not going to make Juno so, as long as we stay focused on cleaning up the interfaces, we have time to do it right | 15:09 |
| bauzas | so, long story short, let's focus on 1) | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: that doesn't necessary mean we cannot work on updating Gantt as POC | 15:10 |
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| jaypipes | as an example, is it agreed that the new scheduler API will *fully own* the management of compute resources? I think the resource tracker should be moved entirely into the scheduler (it kind of already is with the HostStateManager) and the nova-compute workers should just call the scheduler API to update resource information | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: the rationale behind the split was to be the less disruptive as possible | 15:11 |
| n0ano | jaypipes, that sounds like a good idea to me, that should be more a code layout rather than an API change | 15:12 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: hence the idea of a scheduler library | 15:12 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: well, if we clean up the interface call signatures, don't you think a split would be less disriuptive? | 15:12 |
| jaypipes | n0ano: yes, agreed. | 15:12 |
| bauzas | is johnthetubaguy over here ? | 15:12 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, the client lib is still crucial, both for cleanly identifying the interface and for future users of gantt | 15:13 |
| bauzas | I still think the most crucial bp is how we isolate the scheduler | 15:14 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, +1 | 15:14 |
| jaypipes | n0ano: do we have a document somewhere that clearly lists all of the interfaces currently between nova-conductor and the scheduler and nova-compute and the scheduler (via the compute_node object, of course..) | 15:14 |
| jaypipes | ? | 15:14 |
| bauzas | I mean, we can decide that ResourceTracker would be replaced by a new one, we would still have to manage a feature compatibility with the existing filters | 15:14 |
| bauzas | so we would still have to deal with aggregates or instance groups | 15:15 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: the spec I wrote about isolate-sched-db is the most effective one I thnik | 15:15 |
| n0ano | bauzas, we're nt talking about a new ResourceTracker, just having the current code run in the gantt context | 15:15 |
| jaypipes | k | 15:15 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: what do you mean by running in the gantt context ? | 15:16 |
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| n0ano | RT should be part of the scheduler (be it the current one or gantt), not part of nova | 15:17 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: well I can't see the whole interest of it | 15:19 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I mean if we say that RT would be owned by Gantt | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: what would be the interest of it? | 15:19 |
| bauzas | n0ano: the idea is that Gantt would provide a client that other projects could use | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: so, to me, it's just saying that we could have a Resource API and a Schedule API | 15:20 |
| bauzas | I mean, whatever the project is, it updates the scheduler with its view of resources | 15:21 |
| n0ano | and part of that client interface would be resouce tracking, to me the resource API would just be a part of the scheduler api | 15:21 |
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| jaypipes | agree with n0ano on this. | 15:21 |
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| n0ano | I think we're in violent agreement, there | 15:22 |
| n0ano | didn't finish | 15:22 |
| jaypipes | basically, part of the scheduler API should be "get me a set of claims that represent these requested sets of resources" and another part of the API should be "update your view of the state of resource usage on these resource providers" | 15:23 |
| n0ano | jaypipes, +1 | 15:23 |
| jaypipes | the claims piece is *currently* in the RT, not the scheduler, and that's what needs to be "cleaned up" in step 1), IMO. | 15:23 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: well, I think I see a slight difference here | 15:24 |
| jaypipes | the reason it's not as simple as just a layout change in the code is because the RT currently only handles claims for the nova-compute worker it is running in, whereas the moved claims code would need to handle all (or a subset) of compute nodes in the deployment | 15:24 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: to me, the resources are still owned by the project, but the project just reports use of the resources to the scheduler | 15:24 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: I disagree (respectfully of course!). The resources are owned by the system (the scheduler), and are rented/leased to the project. The ultimate arbiter of resource usage and claims should always be the scheduler | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: I see now your point | 15:26 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: that's what we tried to provide with Climate | 15:27 |
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| n0ano | I think I have to agree with jaypipes on this one | 15:27 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: the resources are owned by climate, but the execution is deferred to the project | 15:27 |
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| bauzas | so that means we agreed on the fact that nova-computes are a scheduling resource, not a nova on | 15:28 |
| bauzas | one | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | woah, such a change, and we go back to what we discussed : compute_nodes should be a scheduler part | 15:29 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: so that also means that if you want to declare a new resource, it has to go to gantt, not nova | 15:29 |
| n0ano | I don't think it's that big a change, now the compute nodes send resource claim/usage to the scheduler, the way it should be done | 15:29 |
| jaypipes | n0ano: so, I agree with you that the nova-scheduler/gantt split will not happen in Juno. I think we should put together a doc on the existing "interfaces" between the nova-compute, nova-conductor, and nova-scheduler pieces, and clearly show what we'd like to change regarding the call signatures. I think that woudl be a good first building block. I think the isolate-db-scheduler blueprint would sort of naturally f | 15:30 |
| jaypipes | ollow the completion of such a set of refactoring steps. | 15:30 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: yes, that is exactly correct. | 15:30 |
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| * bauzas is thinking that jaypipes has to see the Climate APIs... | 15:30 | |
| * jaypipes already knows the Climate APIs ;) | 15:31 | |
| bauzas | we defined a couple of time ago what we call a os-hosts api | 15:31 |
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| jaypipes | bauzas: they are on target for some things I'm talking about, but not other things... namely, the temporal aspect of the API reservations don't meet my needs. | 15:31 |
| bauzas | for reserving hosts | 15:31 |
| n0ano | the good news is I don't think we need to change anything we are currently doing, just expand our scope a little bit | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: I'm not saying that Climate *is* Gantt | 15:32 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: oh, I know! I wasn't saying that either. :) | 15:32 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: I'm just saying that the concept of reserving a resource is close to schedule a resource :) | 15:32 |
| jaypipes | n0ano: s/expand/refine and expand/, but yeah. | 15:32 |
| bauzas | woah, I still think that's a big change for nova, not just a refactoring thing | 15:33 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: well, it kind of is, but the additional aspect of date/time period (temporal) makes it more complicated than what needs to be in gantt.. | 15:33 |
| n0ano | we have another topic today, let's think about what we're doing and try and clarify via email exactly what happens next | 15:33 |
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| * bauzas is just thinking about all the discussions he had with johnthetubaguy and a certain CRUD interface for Gantt... | 15:33 | |
| * jaypipes clearly lacks the historical context :( | 15:34 | |
| * johnthetubaguy felt that his name was called | 15:34 | |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: good to see you here :) | 15:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | sorry, was in another meeting, but out of that now | 15:34 |
| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, might want to review the log but I want to move on to another topic now | 15:35 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: we're just discussing on the sched split, and jaypipes has an interesting PoV whose we agree | 15:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: OK, will review the log | 15:35 |
| n0ano | moving on... | 15:35 |
| n0ano | #topic fair share scheduler | 15:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "fair share scheduler (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:35 | |
| n0ano | lisaZ, still there? | 15:36 |
| lisaZ | yes | 15:36 |
| lisaZ | hi | 15:36 |
| lisaZ | did you receive our doc? any comments? | 15:36 |
| n0ano | I read your use case, looks interesting, how do you respond to the comment this this seems very similar to AWS spot intances? | 15:36 |
| n0ano | s/intances/instances | 15:36 |
| lisaZ | I already answered in the ML | 15:37 |
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| bauzas | lisaZ: and I did an update too | 15:37 |
| lisaZ | our model is similar to the Amazon's spot instances model because both try to maximize the resource utilization. The main difference is the mechanism used for assigning resources to the users (the user's offer in terms of money vs the user's share). They differ even on how they release the allocated resources. In our model, the user, whenever requires the creation of a Type 3 VM, she has to select one of the possible types of "life time" (sho | 15:37 |
| lisaZ | rt = 4 hours, medium = 24 hours, long = 48 hours). When the time expires, the VM is automatically released (if not explicitly released by the user). | 15:37 |
| lisaZ | Instead, in Amazon, the spot instance is released whenever the spot price rises. | 15:37 |
| n0ano | sorry, missed that | 15:37 |
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| bauzas | lisaZ: as I said, that's just a matter of stopping the instance on a certain event | 15:38 |
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| bauzas | lisaZ: which can be triggered either by the price or whatever else | 15:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | interesting, I assumed the user's VM could get evicted, if someone else who reserved the space wanted the slot you were "optimistically" allowed to take | 15:39 |
| n0ano | anyway, my concern is that, in many respects, your usage is more a data center use case rather than a cloud use case, do your needs really fit a cloud model | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | but having all VMs leased for a specific amount of time is more like a batch processing system, and is an interesting alternative pattern | 15:39 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: that's all the matter of guarantteing your lease or not | 15:41 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, its a grid computing view of the world, and really does change the meaning of the API, but I suspect we could do something for that use case, its just I expect the lease management will be outside of Nova for the moment | 15:41 |
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| johnthetubaguy | and yeah, that sounds like some of what climate was looking at, but prehaps a little different | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | I could see an API to request complete "slots" that is implemented by calling nova to create and delete servers | 15:42 |
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| lisaZ | the lease solves in part our problems | 15:42 |
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| lisaZ | we need a fair share algorithm which provides priorities on user requests | 15:43 |
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| johnthetubaguy | lisaZ: would you idea work, if its something external to Nova, that just creates/deletes resources inside nova? | 15:43 |
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| lisaZ | able to queue them if the resources are not available | 15:43 |
| schwicke | I think there is another difference: in Lisa's model requests which currently cannot be fulfilled because of lack of resources can be dispatched later on. | 15:43 |
| schwicke | that is a quite important as it helps a site to keep their resources busy | 15:44 |
| bauzas | schwicke: can't see why Climate couldn't handle that | 15:44 |
| schwicke | the idea of climate seems more like an advance reservation kind of scheduling, right ? | 15:45 |
| lisaZ | Climate is not able to distinguish privileged users from the simple ones | 15:45 |
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| lisaZ | Climate covers just one use case | 15:46 |
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| lisaZ | but it is not enough | 15:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | lisaZ: I would love if you thought about this as a separate API, and we work out what it does, then we can look at how to use bits of climate and nova to implement what you need | 15:47 |
| bauzas | lisaZ: that's what I called a best-effort mode for non-privileged users | 15:47 |
| lisaZ | it is missing of the fair share algorithm | 15:47 |
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| lisaZ | correct | 15:47 |
| lisaZ | from my point oh view | 15:48 |
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| lisaZ | blazar is a component above the scheduler | 15:48 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: +1 | 15:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | I see it almost like Heat, a description of things you want to create in Nova, but then there is some scheduling to give you the capacity you are allowed, balanced with other current requests in the system, rather than scaling up/down based on load | 15:48 |
| bauzas | right | 15:49 |
| lisaZ | suppose to replace the filter-scheduler with our fairsharescheduler | 15:49 |
| lisaZ | in this scenario all our use case are implemented | 15:49 |
| lisaZ | because blazar provides the missing | 15:49 |
| lisaZ | feature which is the advanced reservation | 15:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | the problem is the current nova API does not really model what you want to model | 15:49 |
| lisaZ | why not? | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | you need uses to manage a queue of jobs, that may have an associated nova server | 15:50 |
| lisaZ | it si just an advanced scheduler | 15:50 |
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| lisaZ | a true scheduler a not just a matchmaker of resources | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | its also a different concept of flavor, and has automatic deleteing, and I am sure other things will crop up | 15:51 |
| bauzas | lisaZ: at the moment, nova-scheduler is a resource placement engine | 15:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | we don't really have a scheduler, we just have a simple placement engine for requests that come in, if there is no space, the server build fails | 15:51 |
| bauzas | lisaZ: if you want to involve time-based decisions, nova-scheduler is not right for it | 15:51 |
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| lisaZ | correct | 15:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | this changes the contract quite a lot, you end up having a queued state | 15:51 |
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| johnthetubaguy | feels like that needs to be managed externally to Nova, if possible, at least for the moment | 15:52 |
| bauzas | at least until Nova uses an external scheduler :) | 15:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: its the nova API changes that worry me, it feels like a heat feature, in a way | 15:53 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: indeed, that's why we moved to a separate API for Climate | 15:53 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: formerly, we were planning to support reservation features in Nova | 15:53 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: but we moved to a separate project because of the API need | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | right, same issue here | 15:54 |
| lisaZ | let me understand: which relationship there is between nova-scheduler and Gantt? Gantt will replace definitely nova-scheduler? | 15:54 |
| bauzas | lisaZ: that's the idea, yes | 15:54 |
| lisaZ | ok | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | lisaZ: short term, its a refactoring effort, to help scale out how the projects grow | 15:55 |
| bauzas | nova-scheduler will become deprecated once Gantt becomes fully operational | 15:55 |
| lisaZ | our solution is between blazar and gannt | 15:55 |
| n0ano | think nova-volume to cinder, same idea | 15:55 |
| lisaZ | we need both | 15:55 |
| bauzas | lisaZ: I'm just saying that you can probably have some concepts in Blazar that you can make use, without redoing all the wheel | 15:56 |
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| bauzas | Gantt is still under constructionhere | 15:56 |
| lisaZ | that's correct in fact I don't want redoing the well ;-) | 15:56 |
| lisaZ | that's correct in fact I don't want redoing the whell ;-) | 15:57 |
| bauzas | probably in the future, Climate won't have any sense as a separate project - or not | 15:57 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: have time for discussing with jaypipes and n0ano about what we discussed earlier ? | 15:58 |
| bauzas | after the meeting I mean ? | 15:58 |
| n0ano | bauzas, give me about 15 min. and I can join on the nova channel | 15:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | lisaZ: if we agree the idea API, what it means, and how users use it, I think it will be much clearer about the best way forward | 15:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: sure | 15:59 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: cool, n0ano: sure | 15:59 |
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| bauzas | lisaZ: I think the first thing is to define the API interfaces for your needs | 15:59 |
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| bauzas | lisaZ: I mean the contract in between your user and the system | 15:59 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: unfortunately, I need to leave for the airport in a few minutes... | 16:00 |
| n0ano | approaching the top of the hour, we'll have to continue this via email, let me know if you want to keep this subject on the agenda for next week. | 16:00 |
| bauzas | dammit | 16:00 |
| n0ano | tnx everyone | 16:00 |
| lisaZ | meantime could you provide me some pointers to your new architecture? | 16:00 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 8 16:00:30 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-08-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-08-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| bauzas | lisaZ: which meeting ? | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-08-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
| bauzas | oops | 16:00 |
| bauzas | which architecture ? | 16:00 |
| lisaZ | Gannt | 16:00 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: ok, we will discuss with n0ano then | 16:01 |
| lisaZ | ok thanks a lot | 16:01 |
| bauzas | lisaZ: there is no new architecture, just a refactoring effort at the moment | 16:01 |
| schwicke | would be great if you could send the pointer via e-mail | 16:01 |
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| bauzas | schwicke: at the moment, the Gantt API is still subject to debate :) | 16:02 |
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| mspreitz | Wasn't that the point of the first half of the meeting? | 16:02 |
| schwicke | bauzas: great! that gives us a chance for changes ;-) | 16:02 |
| schwicke | :) | 16:02 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: ;) | 16:02 |
| lisaZ | schwicke +1 | 16:02 |
| schwicke | lisaZ: we should discuss via e-mail | 16:03 |
| lisaZ | yes | 16:03 |
| lisaZ | thanks ;-) | 16:03 |
| schwicke | have to leave, I'm being kicked out from here where I am | 16:03 |
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| lisaZ | ok thanks again | 16:03 |
| lisaZ | bye | 16:03 |
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| k4n0 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:10 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 8 17:10:23 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is k4n0. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:10 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:10 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:10 |
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| k4n0 | Lets start the Rally meeting | 17:10 |
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| coolsvap | hello | 17:10 |
| olkonami | hi! | 17:10 |
| k4n0 | boris-42 wont be in meeting today | 17:10 |
| k4n0 | who wants to start first? | 17:11 |
| k4n0 | #topic Rally review updates | 17:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rally review updates (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:12 | |
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| coolsvap | k4n0, i have started working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/improve-unit-test-coverage-rally | 17:12 |
| coolsvap | submitted 3 patchsets for unit test coverage where its missing | 17:12 |
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| k4n0 | great, thanks | 17:13 |
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| k4n0 | olkonami, do you have any updates for the Stress runners ? | 17:14 |
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| k4n0 | ok, moving on | 17:14 |
| k4n0 | oanufriev, Any updates since last meeting? | 17:15 |
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| olkonami | about stress runner, boris-42 asked me to modify ScenarioRunnerResult to store information about 1) failure_precent on iteration of scenario 2) was failure_precent > stop_on_failure_precent (at was what that level) | 17:15 |
| olkonami | now I think how to do it | 17:16 |
| k4n0 | olkonami, any more blockers ? | 17:16 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, do you have any updates since last meeting? | 17:18 |
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| olkonami | k4n0, no, I hope it last problem with stress runner | 17:18 |
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| rediskin | k4n0: i start work around reducing number of points in generated html charts | 17:18 |
| rediskin | there is too much points sometimes | 17:19 |
| rediskin | also plot.py need some refactoring | 17:19 |
| rediskin | patch is coming soon | 17:19 |
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| k4n0_ | sorry, got disconnected | 17:20 |
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| rediskin | [20:18:55] <rediskin> k4n0: i start work around reducing number of points in generated html charts | 17:20 |
| rediskin | [20:19:07] <rediskin> there is too much points sometimes | 17:20 |
| rediskin | [20:19:17] <rediskin> also plot.py need some refactoring | 17:20 |
| rediskin | [20:19:42] <rediskin> patch is coming soon | 17:20 |
| k4n0_ | rediskin, do you have updates since last meeting? | 17:20 |
| k4n0_ | rediskin, ahh , got it | 17:21 |
| k4n0_ | rediskin, any blockers? | 17:21 |
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| rediskin | k4n0_ no | 17:21 |
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| k4n0_ | rediskin, any update on functional tests that we discussed last week? | 17:22 |
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| rediskin | about functional tests: there is one tiny problem: html results are generated, but not published | 17:23 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, not published by the jenkins job? | 17:24 |
| rediskin | i believe i fix it today | 17:24 |
| rediskin | by jenkins publisher. wrong path or something similar | 17:24 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, ok cool, let us know if any blockers | 17:25 |
| rediskin | ok | 17:25 |
| k4n0 | I have been working on finishing unit tests for the final review in the rally-tempest integration patches | 17:25 |
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| k4n0 | Will complete it by tonite | 17:25 |
| k4n0 | I am also working on increasing unit test coverage https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/improve-unit-test-coverage-rally | 17:26 |
| k4n0 | I have to start working on this blueprint as well https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/collect-runtime-duration | 17:26 |
| k4n0 | oanufriev is also working on first part of this blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/collect-runtime-duration | 17:27 |
| coolsvap | k4n0, I also noticed the centos gate is failing due to dependency issue, guys please let know if anyone else facing similar issues | 17:27 |
| k4n0 | coolsvap, where is that? | 17:27 |
| coolsvap | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/105511/ | 17:28 |
| coolsvap | i did recheck no bug, but still same issue persists | 17:28 |
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| k4n0 | coolsvap, ok thanks for heads up | 17:28 |
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| k4n0 | #action Check failing gate-rally-install-bare-centos6 | 17:29 |
| rediskin | it is not dependency issue, ist more looks like temporary network issues | 17:29 |
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| rediskin | i saw the patch adding retries to apt-get/yum in devstack | 17:29 |
| k4n0 | #info gate-rally-install-bare-centos6 failing due to temporary network issues (maybe) | 17:30 |
| rediskin | so mb we should add retries to install_rally.sh | 17:30 |
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| coolsvap | rediskin, yes, recheck no bug failed with connection reset to peer | 17:30 |
| rediskin | it is somewhere in yum configuration | 17:30 |
| k4n0 | #info Try adding retries for apt-get/yum to solve failng centos6 gate | 17:30 |
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| k4n0 | rediskin, ok thanks, can you do that? | 17:30 |
| rediskin | 2014-07-08 16:34:36.532 | Downloading/unpacking netaddr>=0.7.6 | 17:30 |
| rediskin | ... | 17:30 |
| rediskin | 2014-07-08 16:34:51.829 | SSLError: The read operation timed out | 17:30 |
| coolsvap | okay I will check in my patch | 17:31 |
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| k4n0 | #topic open discussion | 17:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:31 | |
| k4n0 | anything else left to discuss? | 17:31 |
| rediskin | recently i heard about asynchronous collecting results | 17:31 |
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| k4n0 | yes, Artem Borzilov is working on them | 17:32 |
| k4n0 | https://review.openstack.org/104518 | 17:32 |
| rediskin | oh, yes | 17:32 |
| rediskin | thank | 17:32 |
| rediskin | we need to review it =) | 17:33 |
| rediskin | more eyes -- less errors | 17:33 |
| k4n0 | #action review https://review.openstack.org/104518 | 17:33 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, got it | 17:33 |
| k4n0 | Anything else to discuss ? | 17:33 |
| olkonami | I have a patch for plugins improvement | 17:34 |
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| olkonami | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103145/ | 17:34 |
| olkonami | it makes possible to load plugins not only for scenarios, but also for runners and contexts | 17:34 |
| rediskin | nice | 17:34 |
| k4n0 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103145 | 17:34 |
| olkonami | and plugins can be loaded from any subdirectories of plugins directories | 17:34 |
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| k4n0 | sounds great | 17:35 |
| k4n0 | #action review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103145/ | 17:35 |
| k4n0 | olkonami, nice work with the docs | 17:35 |
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| k4n0 | Anything else to discuss? | 17:36 |
| olkonami | k4n0, thanks | 17:36 |
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| k4n0 | ok , it seems we can end the meeting :) | 17:37 |
| rediskin | https://github.com/openstack-dev/devstack/commit/9ad8f9890198de0a3c124cea06d993c9f1939ea8 | 17:38 |
| rediskin | only for apt | 17:38 |
| rediskin | >_< | 17:38 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, can you send patch to our ci job script? | 17:39 |
| k4n0 | #link https://github.com/openstack-dev/devstack/commit/9ad8f9890198de0a3c124cea06d993c9f1939ea8 | 17:39 |
| rediskin | we should make patch for install_rally.sh | 17:39 |
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| rediskin | and it should be for yum,not apt | 17:40 |
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| k4n0 | rediskin, Yes, correct | 17:40 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, since only centos6 is failing, but do you think we should put same change for ubuntu? So that it doesnt fail in future | 17:40 |
| rediskin | ok, i gonna make patch soon | 17:40 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, can you make for both gates, centos and ubuntu ? | 17:41 |
| coolsvap | k4n0, for ubuntu its there | 17:41 |
| k4n0 | #action rediskin will make patch for fixing yum retry issue | 17:41 |
| coolsvap | we need it for yum only | 17:41 |
| rediskin | this change in install_rally.sh, so it automatically aplly for all gates | 17:41 |
| k4n0 | coolsvap, ok thanks | 17:41 |
| k4n0 | rediskin, thanks | 17:41 |
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| k4n0 | Shall we end the meeting? | 17:42 |
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| rediskin | lets do it. there is #openstack-rally if anyone wants to continue | 17:43 |
| k4n0 | ok, seems we dont have anything else to discuss, ending meeting | 17:43 |
| k4n0 | Thanks everyone. We did meeting without boris-42 today :) | 17:43 |
| k4n0 | #endmeeting | 17:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:43 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 8 17:43:40 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:43 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-08-17.10.html | 17:43 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-08-17.10.txt | 17:43 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-08-17.10.log.html | 17:43 |
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| zdiN0bot | does anyone want to come rock climbing at mission cliffs this afternoon? ps - we're doing belay training at 4:15 outside the kitchen by the pull up bar. | 17:57 |
| zdiN0bot | leaving around 5 to bus to mission cliffs. | 17:57 |
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| zdiN0bot | meet by foos table. at 5. | 17:58 |
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| jeblair | infra folks around? | 19:00 |
| fungi | did rally switch time slots with keystone? | 19:00 |
| fungi | hey-o! | 19:00 |
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| fungi | oh, rally's before keystone, and keystone took the day off | 19:00 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:00 |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:00 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:00 |
| * SergeyLukjanov on PTO today, so, mostly lurking | 19:01 | |
| anteaya | <-- has a ticket to see sarah maclaughlin tonight!! | 19:01 |
| Ajaeger1 | Hi! | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: you must be.. ecstatic! | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 8 19:01:41 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:01 |
| anteaya | I am | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-01-19.02.html | 19:02 |
| jeblair | drat, i think most of the agenda is left over from last week | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| jeblair | nibalizer and jeblair to spin up a puppet3 master | 19:02 |
| jeblair | this did not happen | 19:02 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | several changes were still outstanding and needed to land | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | nibalizer: i think they have landed now, and we're ready to actually try booting one? | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | that's my story and i'm sticking to it | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #topic Zanata/Pootle updates and time frame (pleia2) | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Zanata/Pootle updates and time frame (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
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| pleia2 | so I have a couple updates here | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | I met with the translatiosn team at their meeting last week, they're still keen to try Zanata "soon" since they're having trouble with Transifex support (creating new projects is hard right now, takes a lot of time since they need to go to support) | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: very quickly, yes we can, but im dealing with some other stuff right now, so i'll emerge from the cloud... eventually | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | cloud was perhaps not the right word in this context | 19:06 |
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| Ajaeger1 | pleia2: Here's an update from transifex: They fixed the problem, we can create new projects again! | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | the Zanata folks told us 5-6 weeks before they have Zanata running on the WildFly application server, which we can run on Centos7 - no licenses | 19:06 |
| * Ajaeger1 created 5+ new projects the last few days | 19:06 | |
| pleia2 | Ajaeger1: ah good, so less urgent :) | 19:06 |
| Ajaeger1 | pleia2: exactly! | 19:06 |
| Ajaeger1 | still, the long time it took to resolve this, means we have to switch eventually. | 19:07 |
| jeblair | pleia2: does wildfly have packages in centos? | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | so we can set up basic Zanata + AS7 pre-packaged thing in the -infra so the Translations folks can test it + upgrade Pootle and schedule a demo with a Pootle contributor so they can compare side-by-side | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: no, it's still heavily in development | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: how will be deploy wildfly? | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: it's pretty much jboss, we'd manage from tarballs, not awesome tbh :\ | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: isn't that the same problem with jboss? | 19:08 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: jboss has that problem, plus the community version having known security problems and the enterprise version requiring a paid license | 19:09 |
| pleia2 | so with wildfly we only solve the licensing issues | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: wildfly community version is expected to get security updates? | 19:09 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: that's the plan | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | i have to admit, i'm extremely skeptical | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | i believe redhat chooses to make jboss installation difficult as a business decison | 19:10 |
| jeblair | and i don't see why that would be different with wildfly | 19:10 |
| pleia2 | as I understand it, it's not jboss, but it is a java application server that will have the ability to run zanata | 19:10 |
| pleia2 | but this is all new to me :) | 19:10 |
| jeblair | not to mention, the number of hoops we have to go through to manage installing software from tarballs | 19:10 |
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| fungi | well, red hat traditionally made their linux distro security updates hard too, as part of their business model. hence centos. then they acknowledged that people want to run community versions of server things, so they absorbed centos | 19:11 |
| zaro | pleia2: can't zanata run in tomcat? | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | I also have very little expertise managing java/jboss applications, not sure how we're doing talent-wise with the rest of the team | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | zaro: I don't think so | 19:11 |
| clarkb | I have never done jboss before either :) | 19:11 |
| zaro | i have *some* experience with jboss | 19:12 |
| jeblair | pleia2: i've only used tomcat, because, well, the R1 university i was at couldn't afford a jboss license. :) | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: so it seems like the plan is to set up both systems un-managed for further evaluation | 19:13 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: yeah | 19:13 |
| jeblair | i think that the puppeting, etc, should be part of the evaluation | 19:13 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:14 |
| jeblair | i don't think the systems are equivalent from an installation/upgrade/management pov | 19:14 |
| pleia2 | agreed | 19:15 |
| pleia2 | Carlos of the Zanata team sent me some incomplete puppet configs for zanata running on jboss+RHEL and they are keen to see improvements, so I'll take another look at those | 19:15 |
| pleia2 | I added this topic for our sprint next week, so I'll do some prep for that | 19:15 |
| fungi | i agree that the deployment automation of a system is part of that system from an evaluation perspective. if it runs well but is impossible to deploy, then it may be less preferable to something which runs okay and is easy to deploy | 19:15 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: would you be interested in working with the translation team on the evaluation, to make sure that these concerns are shared? | 19:16 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: yeah, I'll handle that | 19:16 |
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| pleia2 | the real concern for them is that if it's tough for us to maintain, it'll be a poor experience + have downtime as we upgrade, etc | 19:16 |
| fungi | s/deploy/deploy and manage/g | 19:16 |
| zaro | IIRC deploying jboss and tomcat are pretty similiar. there's lots of automation around those | 19:16 |
| jeblair | zaro: deploying tomcat is "yum install tomcat" | 19:17 |
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| pleia2 | puppet require package :) | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: indeed; but i never would have gotten the rocketships aligned in irc :) | 19:18 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 19:18 |
| pleia2 | anyway, that's all I've got | 19:18 |
| jeblair | cool, thanks. i'm happy to help out with any pootle hacking that needs doing too. | 19:18 |
| pleia2 | great | 19:19 |
| jeblair | #topic Replacement for docs.openstack.org (AJaeger) | 19:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Replacement for docs.openstack.org (AJaeger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:19 | |
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| Ajaeger1 | This is a followup to the Atlanta summit session https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/summit-b301-ci-doc-automation | 19:19 |
| Ajaeger1 | We talked briefly about the need to replace docs.openstack.org with another system - one of the issues was a system where we can actually delete files ;) | 19:20 |
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| Ajaeger1 | I wanted to followup on this and see what the next steps are here. | 19:20 |
| clarkb | I think there are a few options open to us. like rsync or using 'slots' to host the content | 19:21 |
| Ajaeger1 | jeblair: I took as note after the meeting "Jim Blair will brainstorm with team on how to do it best, will need at | 19:21 |
| Ajaeger1 | least a month, so get back to him after mid-June." - and now I'm back ;) | 19:21 |
| clarkb | I briefly looked at read the docs but that is far too complicated for our needs | 19:21 |
| jeblair | Ajaeger1: we may not need a terribly complicated system, possibly just a different way of copying them | 19:21 |
| Ajaeger1 | jeblair: copying and deleting ;) yeah | 19:21 |
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| jeblair | Ajaeger1: yeah, i'd actually like to push that back another 2 weeks if we can... i'd like to do some brainstorming at our mid-cycle in germany | 19:21 |
| Ajaeger1 | It's serving static pages, so shouldn't be something complicated. | 19:21 |
| Ajaeger1 | jeblair: fine with me! | 19:22 |
| fungi | in particular, knowing what "features" of rackspace cloudsites the current docs hosting might be taking for granted would be helpful | 19:22 |
| wenlock | *for us | 19:22 |
| Ajaeger1 | fungi: if you have some questions, I can figure them out with annegentle | 19:22 |
| wenlock | mt | 19:22 |
| fungi | i suspect that just cramming those files onto an basic apache server may not get you everything you require. i know in the past there were content search libraries and other things provided by the cloudsites platform | 19:23 |
| fungi | so knowing what they are up front will help speed the design along | 19:23 |
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| Ajaeger1 | fungi: I can check, I'm not aware of these yet. | 19:24 |
| jeblair | hrm. current search seems to use google | 19:24 |
| fungi | though with the docs-draft deployment we do at least serve up the basic content on a bog-standard apache server, so might just work | 19:24 |
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| fungi | jeblair: oh, they might have changed that | 19:24 |
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| Ajaeger1 | fungi: yeah, just see http://docs-draft.openstack.org/63/105263/4/check/gate-openstack-manuals-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/94f3e9d/publish-docs/ | 19:24 |
| Ajaeger1 | works fine for publishing manuals... | 19:24 |
| Ajaeger1 | just click on the link | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | yeah, i think the basic question is how to delete the files we want to (obsolete files), but not the ones we don't (files that come from a different build, eg, a stable branch) | 19:25 |
| Ajaeger1 | jeblair: indeed. | 19:25 |
| Ajaeger1 | we publish to single directories for each book | 19:26 |
| Ajaeger1 | but only publish the changed manuals | 19:26 |
| jeblair | so we'll have a bunch of people in the room that understand what we're doing now, and what we're trying to do with swift, so i bet we can come up with something | 19:26 |
| fungi | cool--all good stuff to discuss next week in darmstadt | 19:26 |
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| Ajaeger1 | if you have questions for me, just ping me - I'm in Germany as well so in your timezone next week ;) | 19:27 |
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| jeblair | Ajaeger1: thanks, will do! | 19:27 |
| fungi | the search i was thinking of was the stuff like http://docs.openstack.org/admin-guide-cloud/content/#searchDiv btw | 19:27 |
| Ajaeger1 | fungi: try http://docs-draft.openstack.org/63/105263/4/check/gate-openstack-manuals-tox-doc-publish-checkbuild/94f3e9d/publish-docs/high-availability-guide/content/index.html#searchDiv | 19:27 |
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| Ajaeger1 | works on docs-draft as well | 19:28 |
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| Ajaeger1 | Thanks for putting this on the agenda for Darmstadt! | 19:28 |
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| fungi | right, dita but i forget what provides it | 19:28 |
| jeblair | Ajaeger1: thank you! | 19:29 |
| jeblair | what a perfect transition... | 19:29 |
| jeblair | #topic Meetup | 19:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Meetup (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:29 | |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Qa_Infra_Meetup_2014 | 19:29 |
| jeblair | that's next week | 19:29 |
| jeblair | we're out of room and registration is closed | 19:29 |
| clarkb | yes I arrive sunday morning local time | 19:29 |
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| pleia2 | me too | 19:29 |
| zaro | clarkb is my flying buddy | 19:30 |
| anteaya | me too | 19:30 |
| pleia2 | I get in at 10:55am | 19:30 |
| jeblair | there's a waitlist, so if anyone on the registration list is not going, please let me know | 19:30 |
| jeblair | also, if you are only attending certain days, please annotate that in the comments section next to your name | 19:30 |
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| fungi | looks like i get to frankfurt at noon | 19:30 |
| anteaya | I will create an etherpad for commits to infra-manual, I'd like everyone to pick a section and offer at least one paragraph of content | 19:30 |
| anteaya | I'll link the etherpad to the wikipage | 19:31 |
| jeblair | anteaya: good one | 19:31 |
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| anteaya | I also have assorted third party things for beer discussion | 19:32 |
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| fungi | third-party beer | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | and assorted beer for third party discussion | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | (woo germany!) | 19:33 |
| anteaya | ha ha ha | 19:33 |
| clarkb | and world cup | 19:33 |
| krtaylor | anteaya, take good notes on the third-party beer | 19:33 |
| Ajaeger1 | No need to bring your own beer to Germany ;) | 19:33 |
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| fungi | Ajaeger1: yeah, i expect to be able to find plenty there | 19:34 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: I will be able to tell many stories | 19:34 |
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| anteaya | krtaylor: I still want to you be there, but can't figure out how to shoe horn you in | 19:34 |
| krtaylor | anteaya, it all good, I'll stay here and get some patches done | 19:35 |
| anteaya | kk | 19:35 |
| anteaya | you can review many infra-manual patches | 19:35 |
| anteaya | and assorted others | 19:35 |
| krtaylor | yep, that too | 19:35 |
| anteaya | :D | 19:35 |
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| jeblair | anyone have anything else? | 19:36 |
| clarkb | I sort of do | 19:36 |
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| clarkb | it being hosted at corporate land is there a secret handshake we need to use to get into the building? | 19:37 |
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| clarkb | looks like we have an address to go to. And how early should we show up? | 19:37 |
| jeblair | btw, i've been trying to avoid reviewing changes that don't have a +/-1 code review; so non-core infra reviewers, your help is much appreciated. :) | 19:37 |
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| Ajaeger1 | clarkb: last time I visited Deutsche Telekom they had a reception where I just told them who I am and what I wanted. | 19:38 |
| clarkb | Ajaeger1: perfect | 19:38 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i think the registration list is being used for that purpose | 19:38 |
| anteaya | jeblair: I hear that | 19:38 |
| Ajaeger1 | But there are many buildings of DT in Darmstadt... | 19:38 |
| Ajaeger1 | Your host is Marc Koderer - remember his name ;) | 19:38 |
| jeblair | the wiki page says " Mina-Rees-Str. 12" hopefully that's specific enough :) | 19:39 |
| fungi | if i end up at the wrong building, i'll just recruit some new dt employees to work on infra for us | 19:39 |
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| * Ajaeger1 just looks it up | 19:39 | |
| anteaya | fungi: go you | 19:39 |
| Ajaeger1 | The whole area is Telekom buildings, so take the proper entry ;) | 19:39 |
| anteaya | we need more eu representation | 19:39 |
| * SergeyLukjanov hopes that will be able to participate somehow through irc | 19:40 | |
| clarkb | I am guessing there will be enough of us weird people hanging around if we can't figure it out that someone will help us :) | 19:40 |
| krtaylor | SergeyLukjanov, I was hoping for some google hangouts | 19:41 |
| wenlock | +1 for a google hangout, but it's EU timezone eh? | 19:41 |
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| Ajaeger1 | wenlock: yeah, UTC+2 | 19:41 |
| Ajaeger1 | wenlock: there's more than one timezone in EU ;) | 19:41 |
| * fungi was hoping to use free software, not google | 19:41 | |
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| wenlock | :D | 19:41 |
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| wenlock | fungi, would be nice for something that records the session | 19:42 |
| fungi | wenlock: for example, an irc bot! | 19:42 |
| wenlock | intreasting | 19:42 |
| * fungi thinks we already have one in the #openstack-infra channel | 19:42 | |
| fungi | and we should take good notes for the benefit of those not able to participate with us real-time | 19:43 |
| anteaya | etherpads will be created | 19:43 |
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| pleia2 | if we do it summit-style, etherpads were sufficient for following up after the summit I missed | 19:44 |
| anteaya | cool | 19:44 |
| anteaya | I don't think it will be a hardship for us to work summit style | 19:44 |
| Ajaeger1 | great, thanks! | 19:44 |
| wenlock | take your go-pros :D | 19:45 |
| fungi | yep. agreed, etherpads for taking notes | 19:45 |
| anteaya | we can add links to the sprint wikipage | 19:45 |
| fungi | perfect | 19:45 |
| jeblair | wenlock: now i'm going to search for "extreme daredevil hacking videos" on youtube | 19:45 |
| wenlock | jeblair haha | 19:46 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 19:46 |
| jeblair | oh, one last thing... | 19:46 |
| jeblair | i reckon we should probably cancel this meeting next week :) | 19:47 |
| anteaya | ha ha ha | 19:47 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:47 |
| fungi | i reckon so | 19:47 |
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| fungi | or, rather than cancel it, hold it in person, and hack on things during it | 19:47 |
| jeblair | should we also cancel the week after (oscon)? | 19:47 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: possibly | 19:48 |
| jeblair | i honestly don't know what i'm going to be doing at that time | 19:48 |
| clarkb | I will be there as will you and fungi iirc | 19:48 |
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| pleia2 | I'm skipping oscon | 19:48 |
| clarkb | I won't be at oscon proper though | 19:48 |
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| jeblair | i think mordred will be in a board meeting... | 19:48 |
| fungi | i think i can make the oscon week meeting, but it would be from a hotel room, or mobile modem or crappy conference wifi | 19:48 |
| jeblair | come to think of it, that might be were some of us may be too | 19:48 |
| fungi | oh, right | 19:48 |
| fungi | i meant to show up for the board meeting too | 19:48 |
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| clarkb | fungi: we might need to do backyard hacking with kegerator | 19:48 |
| clarkb | and non crappy wifi | 19:48 |
| anteaya | I'm not at oscon | 19:48 |
| fungi | clarkb: i'll be happy to help you hack on your kegerator | 19:49 |
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| fungi | clearly it needs its own microcontrolled sensor array | 19:49 |
| clarkb | brewpi is a thing | 19:49 |
| clarkb | occasionally I am tempted to do something like that | 19:49 |
| clarkb | but then I would just worry about it more | 19:49 |
| jeblair | i think we may want to declare it an opportunistic meeting... if people show up and feel strongly about having a meeting, go for it. but expect many absences, or no meeting at all. | 19:49 |
| pleia2 | ok, between oscon and board things... next meeting on July 29th | 19:49 |
| ttx | o/ | 19:49 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ++ | 19:50 |
| fungi | wfm | 19:50 |
| clarkb | ttx: ohai | 19:50 |
| fungi | ttx: talk went well? | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | #agreed no meeting on July 22 due to in-person meetup | 19:50 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: 15th | 19:50 |
| jeblair | oops | 19:50 |
| jeblair | is there an undo? | 19:50 |
| pleia2 | #undo | 19:50 |
| fungi | oho, neat! | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | could that be more intuitive? | 19:51 |
| fungi | i figured we were just going to have to #agree calendars are hard | 19:51 |
| jeblair | #agreed no meeting on July 15 due to in-person meetup | 19:51 |
| jeblair | #agreed possibly no meeting on July 22 due to oscon | 19:51 |
| jeblair | #agreed next scheduled meeting July 29 | 19:51 |
| ttx | fungi: a bit empty room, but our numbers attracted the usual "wow" | 19:51 |
| jeblair | ttx: what was the talk? | 19:52 |
| ttx | jeblair: infra, same as my oscon one | 19:52 |
| jeblair | ttx: what event? | 19:52 |
| ttx | err | 19:52 |
| ttx | fosdem one | 19:52 |
| ttx | which you attended | 19:52 |
| ttx | Libre software meeting | 19:52 |
| jeblair | oh cool | 19:52 |
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| jeblair | that reminds me: lca cfp closes soon. | 19:53 |
| clarkb | I still haven't come up with something good for that | 19:53 |
| clarkb | I should think harder | 19:53 |
| * ttx still tries to find a way to jutify cfping for it | 19:53 | |
| ttx | +s | 19:53 |
| anteaya | jeblair: oh, thanks, I didn't know it was open | 19:53 |
| fungi | do we have a nodepool presentation yet? i couldn't find one in the usual place | 19:53 |
| fungi | would probably be something work knocking up if nobody's done one yet | 19:53 |
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| clarkb | oh wow really soon | 19:54 |
| fungi | s/work/worth/ | 19:54 |
| jeblair | i'm going to submit some stuff about gertty and gear. | 19:54 |
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| jeblair | fungi: i have not done one yet | 19:54 |
| clarkb | I had kciked around something along the lines of 100k changes there and back again | 19:54 |
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| clarkb | because as you know those films were filmed in that country <_< | 19:54 |
| jeblair | clarkb: nice | 19:54 |
| anteaya | clarkb: ohhh, I like it | 19:54 |
| clarkb | maybe I will go ahead and do that | 19:55 |
| anteaya | you are waxing poetic on the titles | 19:55 |
| * clarkb does this | 19:55 | |
| anteaya | :D | 19:55 |
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| anteaya | work ghost tooth into it | 19:55 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: statistically speaking, several people in the audience will have worked on those films. :) | 19:55 |
| clarkb | jeblair: :) | 19:55 |
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| clarkb | ok I can't not submit that paper now | 19:56 |
| jeblair | i just hope we don't revert all 100k changes | 19:56 |
| clarkb | that was my secret plan | 19:56 |
| fungi | statistically speaking, several people in the audience will have reverted some of those 100k changes | 19:56 |
| jeblair | i mean, i'm trying to :) | 19:56 |
| clarkb | no I wanted to look forward to the next 100k | 19:57 |
| anteaya | This year the papers committee is going to be focused on open source in education -- hey I can talk about mentoring and mentoring mentors | 19:57 |
| clarkb | so a this is how we got here and it was crazy. This is how much crazier its going to be | 19:57 |
| anteaya | I wonder if they will like that proposal | 19:57 |
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| jeblair | well, thanks everyone! see many of you next week! | 19:58 |
| Ajaeger1 | Have a good trip to Germany! | 19:58 |
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| fungi | looking forward to it! | 19:58 |
| anteaya | thanks jeblair | 19:58 |
| pleia2 | thanks jeblair | 19:58 |
| krtaylor | safe travel everyone | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | #endmeeting | 19:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 8 19:58:48 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-08-19.01.html | 19:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-08-19.01.txt | 19:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-08-19.01.log.html | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: i don't think that undo worked | 19:59 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: I think the chair has to do it :\ | 19:59 |
| jeblair | doh | 19:59 |
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| *** coolsvap1 has quit IRC | 20:00 | |
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| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:01 |
| russellb | \o/ | 20:01 |
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| * ttx keeps an eye on the game | 20:01 | |
| markmc | hey | 20:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| zehicle | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | Hopes Brazil will avenge France | 20:01 |
| russellb | what is this sportsball that you speak of | 20:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | annegentle, mikal, mordred, devananda, vishy, markmcclain, jeblair, jaypipes, sdague: around ? | 20:01 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:01 |
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| sdague | o/ | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | russellb: a softball version of American Football | 20:02 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 8 20:02:48 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today... | 20:02 |
| mikal | Hi | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #topic Core Capabilities TC scoring | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Core Capabilities TC scoring (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | We still have to finalize our answer for the Havana core capabilities "TC" columns | 20:03 |
| russellb | i think we're about ready for another revision here. dhellmann said he'd do it post meeting | 20:03 |
| ttx | ok | 20:03 |
| russellb | zehicle: it might be worth reading over the comments ... there's a few issues with capability defitions | 20:03 |
| russellb | definitions that is | 20:03 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I have the update ready but thought I would make sure there wasn't other feedback first | 20:03 |
| ttx | I commented about the meaning of each column, based on Rob's post: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link http://robhirschfeld.com/2014/05/01/defcore-capabilities-selection/ | 20:04 |
| ttx | #info "Complete": 0 if the capability test is configuration-specific, 1 otherwise | 20:04 |
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| ttx | #info "Stable": 0 if the capability has been there for less than 2 releases, 1 otherwise | 20:04 |
| ttx | #info "Future direction": 0 if we plan to deprecate that feature in the near future, 1 otherwise | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | thanks again to russellb for digging into the meanings on the capability names | 20:04 |
| russellb | dhellmann: np | 20:04 |
| zehicle | ok | 20:04 |
| ttx | Any specific row you'd like to discuss here ? | 20:04 |
| ttx | or should we just iterate on hte review ? | 20:04 |
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| zehicle | there's some start-up wiggle that you have to accept | 20:05 |
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| ttx | Review link: https://review.openstack.org/100722 | 20:05 |
| zehicle | we wrote them as if it was a going thing and accepted that iteration 0 would have null for previous pointers | 20:05 |
| russellb | i think we can iterate on the review | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | zehicle: what's the process for removing a capability? when nova-network is deprecated, for example, some of the ones like compute-security-groups might change or go away. how does that work? | 20:05 |
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| russellb | s/when/if/ | 20:05 |
| russellb | :) | 20:05 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: realistically it probably doesn't change. We've said there needs to be parity for those interfaces to deprecate | 20:06 |
| zehicle | it should be marked as not future and then raised to defcore | 20:06 |
| zehicle | ideally, we would not make things that are depricated core at all | 20:06 |
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| zehicle | BUT we are trying for interop so stability is key | 20:06 |
| russellb | zehicle: capability issues i noticed: test for compute-auth doesn't actually test auth. compute-security-groups includes a test not related to security groups. compute-admin-fixed-ips i don't think is an admin API. | 20:06 |
| zehicle | part of the rationale for a small set | 20:06 |
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| zehicle | russellb, ok | 20:07 |
| russellb | i didn't review all of them, just the ones we were tweaking | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | right, that's my point -- if we leave this in now, and decide later that it's silly to proxy requests to neutron through nova (as a technical decision) how hard does the capability make the change from a policy perspective? | 20:07 |
| zehicle | we very very much want feedback about the tests & capabilities | 20:07 |
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| russellb | dhellmann: this is updated on a per release basis is my understanding | 20:07 |
| zehicle | it was not our plan to have defcore own that - it feels like a technical item to me | 20:07 |
| russellb | dhellmann: this is havana, so don't think it's a big deal, since this trails the code | 20:07 |
| zehicle | BUT I've had that feeling before and found the TC did not agree | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | zehicle: but if the API that test is looking at goes away... | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | russellb: I'm just trying to understand the process, and how long things are expected to stay around. | 20:08 |
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| russellb | dhellmann: ok | 20:08 |
| zehicle | these are good questions | 20:08 |
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| dhellmann | russellb: I'm not arguing that we shouldn't mark those items 1 for now, just being careful :-) | 20:08 |
| zehicle | we expect changes release to release | 20:08 |
| zehicle | we;re not trying to make a lifetime standard | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | so we could say that icehouse doesn't have that feature at all, and no one would be upset? | 20:08 |
| ttx | OK, I think we have enough to iterate on the review -- we just need to go fast | 20:09 |
| sdague | russellb: further question, do we want admin APIs in defcore? I always get a mixed message on them from folks in terms of the guaruntees that come with them. | 20:09 |
| zehicle | ideally, we should add more than remove | 20:09 |
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| dhellmann | (hypothetically) | 20:09 |
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| russellb | sdague: they automatically exclude anything that is an admin API right now in their scoring | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | yes, well, adding is the easy case | 20:09 |
| sdague | russellb: ok | 20:09 |
| zehicle | sdague, no. admin API are not considered core for now | 20:09 |
| devananda | sdague: that is an interesting question in teh context of our discussion about testing admin APIs with tempest last week | 20:09 |
| devananda | zehicle: good to know, thanks | 20:09 |
| zehicle | (which raises an issue since tempest requires admin access to test non-admin APIs) | 20:09 |
| russellb | sdague: i was saying something they called an admin api isn't one | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | I've updated the review with feedback from russellb and vishy | 20:09 |
| sdague | devananda: yep, that's what I wanted to bring it up. | 20:09 |
| sdague | russellb: sure | 20:09 |
| russellb | dhellmann: great thanks | 20:09 |
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| sdague | russellb: honestly, those sorts of issues are things we should probably fix in tempest as 'upstream' for this | 20:10 |
| devananda | zehicle: fwiw, that rules ironic out of defcore since it only presents an admin-facing api | 20:10 |
| zehicle | devananda, we are still trying to score the admin API because it's useful information | 20:10 |
| ttx | damn germa s | 20:10 |
| ttx | +n | 20:10 |
| devananda | zehicle: ack | 20:10 |
| russellb | and whether or not it's included really isn't our concern here | 20:10 |
| zehicle | devananda, there are several things that are out. it;s about interop | 20:10 |
| russellb | we're providing technical answers in this review | 20:11 |
| devananda | zehicle: indeed. just checking expectations :) | 20:11 |
| zehicle | if you cannot run both public and private using the core then it's not core (for this pass) | 20:11 |
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| zehicle | we do expect that there will be broader sets in the future. this pass is the min | 20:11 |
| ttx | ok, shall we move on? | 20:11 |
| zehicle | that's exactly why I want to make sure we keep scoring the admin apis | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: that's all I had | 20:12 |
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| russellb | +1 on latest revision dhellmann just posted | 20:12 |
| zehicle | I'm happy to field questions on the defcore list or 1x1 as needed | 20:12 |
| zehicle | we'll update the definitions to clarify if needed | 20:12 |
| ttx | zehicle: Once we are done with this cycle we'll discuss how to effectively do it for the others | 20:12 |
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| zehicle | +1 | 20:12 |
| ttx | ok, moving on | 20:12 |
| ttx | #topic Election behavior guidelines | 20:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Election behavior guidelines (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:12 | |
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| ttx | We still have two proposals for addressing that issue: | 20:12 |
| ttx | * A resolution on standards of behavior during elections (https://review.openstack.org/100445) | 20:13 |
| ttx | * Adds a resolution addressing expected election behaviour (https://review.openstack.org/98675) | 20:13 |
| * ttx quickchecks for recent changes | 20:13 | |
| ttx | At this point the main differences are: | 20:13 |
| anteaya | my understanding from last round was we were about to discuss to whom the tc wanted me to report | 20:13 |
| ttx | anteaya's proposal insists on the reporting procedure and spelling out the potential consequences | 20:13 |
| anteaya | and then we ran out if time | 20:13 |
| ttx | eglynn's proposal insists on the public call-out, includes a "pledge" part but also mentions the CCoC violation process as an in extremis solution | 20:13 |
| ttx | At this point I could go with both -- I like that eglynn's proposal mentions both options, while I still dislike the pledge part | 20:14 |
| ttx | However I think they are using different words to express the same thing, at this point... | 20:14 |
| markmcclain | should we try to converge on a single one this week? | 20:14 |
| jeblair | i'm strongly negative on the pledge part | 20:14 |
| ttx | or we should pick one depending on how strong we want our tone to be | 20:14 |
| anteaya | for those who don't know | 20:14 |
| anteaya | I have had to use a pledge in teh past | 20:14 |
| anteaya | and the pledge was in the person's own words, not mine | 20:14 |
| anteaya | and was in their handwriting, not copy/paste | 20:15 |
| anteaya | this was in the case of a lost ballot | 20:15 |
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| ttx | jeblair: could you explain why? | 20:15 |
| anteaya | and the person pledged to not vote twice if they got two ballots | 20:15 |
| ttx | I don't like it eiter but I think you'll have stronger arguments than I have | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | I like a lot of the preamble in eglynn's, but I agree with jeblair on the pledge and I don't think the "public shaming" aspect is going to be a good solution long-term. | 20:15 |
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| anteaya | so I do use pledges, but boilerplate isn't helpful | 20:15 |
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| markmc | I'm strongly negative on quickly escalating outside of the technical community | 20:16 |
| markmc | and putting election officials in a very difficult position | 20:16 |
| anteaya | markmc: to whom would you like me to report | 20:16 |
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| markmc | anteaya, eglynn's latest draft suggests that election officials should only be used for advice and guidance on how to resolve | 20:17 |
| jeblair | ttx: we haven't seen any bad acting from candidates themselves, so i think it distracts from the actual problems we're responding to. but also, i find forced pledges disingenous. i find it distasteful that i might be required to say something i might not beleieve in. | 20:17 |
| markmc | resolution being discuss publicly or escalate to ED | 20:17 |
| anteaya | advice and quidance to whom? | 20:17 |
| markmc | the reporter | 20:17 |
| anteaya | I'm foggy | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | maybe a version that had the good preamble, details about behavior for campaigners and candidates, and a reporting procedure to the TC (?) would be a reasonable compromise? | 20:17 |
| anteaya | who conducts an investigation? | 20:17 |
| eglynn | TBH the pledge isn't really the key aspect of my proposal, rather it's the promotion of a shared value-system in the community | 20:17 |
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| markmc | anteaya, preferably an "investigation" isn't needed - if it is, it's the ED | 20:18 |
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| anteaya | what you also might not know was that I wanted to take this to the ml when it happened in the spring | 20:18 |
| ttx | eglynn: you could say the same thing without the "forced" pledge | 20:18 |
| anteaya | the person I talked to didn't want to do that | 20:18 |
| ttx | eglynn: saying that any candidate shall respect the expected behavior, or something | 20:18 |
| anteaya | markmc: great, then that is what I'm for as well | 20:19 |
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| eglynn | ttx: sure, if the forced nature of the pledge raises freespeech hackles, I could work it out of the proposal | 20:19 |
| anteaya | since I didn't want to be the one getting the response from the person accussed of violations | 20:19 |
| markmc | anteaya, we'd now be setting the expectation that discussing publicly is the preferred first approach | 20:19 |
| anteaya | that was a comment on the patch I was asked to add | 20:19 |
| anteaya | I dis agree with taking it to the ml | 20:19 |
| ttx | I like that anteaya's proposal has a clear escalation procedure, but I can see how it can appear to ostrong as the only mechanism | 20:19 |
| markmcclain | I think that public discussion is a reasonable expectation | 20:20 |
| anteaya | since that might not bring a resolution in the time to retain the integrity of the election | 20:20 |
| markmcclain | I think that part of the problem in the spring is we didn't have anything documented | 20:20 |
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| anteaya | I suggested taking it ot hte ml | 20:20 |
| anteaya | why was that not accepted then but is fine now | 20:20 |
| ttx | markmcclain: I expect any of the tewo proposals we have today to solve that | 20:20 |
| anteaya | what has changed? | 20:20 |
| markmcclain | ttx: agreed..writing something down is good | 20:21 |
| markmc | anteaya, what would have changed is that we'd have set the expectation that discussing publicly is the preferred first approach | 20:21 |
| markmc | at some point it has to become public | 20:21 |
| anteaya | yes, it does | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | it should become public, but I don't think that's the *first* step, is it? | 20:21 |
| markmc | that the issues last time around never became public is unsatisfactory | 20:21 |
| ttx | they are getting pretty close. If anteaya adds public discussion and eglynn removes te pledge they would be pretty similar | 20:22 |
| anteaya | and if you want it happening during the election, that is up to the tc | 20:22 |
| markmc | for genuine mistakes, I'd much rather a calm, adult conversation rather than the result of a formal investigation | 20:22 |
| anteaya | I see it potentially being disruptive to other elections running concurrently not involved in the event | 20:22 |
| ttx | damn germans² | 20:22 |
| eglynn | ttx: :) | 20:22 |
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| anteaya | but that still doesn't solve markmc concern with mine | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | markmc: agreed - and a 1:1 with the election supervisor may be a better way to have that than posts to the ML | 20:23 |
| anteaya | since I am still reporting to the ED | 20:23 |
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| anteaya | and I would like to hear whom I am to report to, if not the ED | 20:23 |
| markmcclain | markmc: I think that part of the problem with surfacing the issues publicly is that there wasn't any set expectation to protect either side | 20:23 |
| jeblair | yeah, honestly, if i got a weird campaign email, i'm not sure the first thing i'd want to do is post to the ml; i might want to chat with someone first | 20:24 |
| markmcclain | jeblair: +1 | 20:24 |
| eglynn | markmcclain: what sort of protection would be required, anonymity? | 20:24 |
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| dhellmann | I have seen the negative effects on a community where taking grievances directly to the mailing list was considered normal. We do not want to do that. | 20:24 |
| * ttx shall stop watching the game now | 20:24 | |
| markmcclain | eglynn: mainly process | 20:24 |
| anteaya | and people did ask me questions, but I never got any facts | 20:24 |
| anteaya | just interpretation | 20:24 |
| markmc | jeblair, and if the sender apologized and you felt that had resolved the issue - why take it further? | 20:25 |
| markmcclain | both sides should have an expectation of both behavior and ways to report | 20:25 |
| anteaya | without being able to arrive at my own | 20:25 |
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| markmcclain | the last thing we should do is to make things up on the fly | 20:25 |
| markmc | jeblair, which is what happened in the case I'm aware of | 20:25 |
| markmc | jeblair, I'm very afraid of turning that into a rapid escalation | 20:25 |
| anteaya | why rapic | 20:25 |
| anteaya | d | 20:25 |
| anteaya | why do you think this would be rapid | 20:26 |
| zaneb | ttx: probably a good thing you stopped watching ;) | 20:26 |
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| jeblair | markmc: i'm not sure it's the sender i'd want to talk to. i don't want to get on the bad side of someone who feels it's okay to send campaign spam. | 20:26 |
| markmc | anteaya, you're talking about a resolution before the election finishes, right? | 20:26 |
| anteaya | markmc: or decison that sees an election ending and a new one starting | 20:26 |
| markmc | jeblair, meh; if we can't as a community reinforce our culture amongst ourselves ... | 20:27 |
| anteaya | if a decison can be reached in that time | 20:27 |
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| anteaya | but if as you say this was a genuine mistake, with apology | 20:27 |
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| anteaya | do you feel I would reach the same conclusion as yourself? | 20:27 |
| anteaya | do you feel I can recongize a genuine mistake? | 20:27 |
| markmc | anteaya, let's not make it about you - I worry that not all election officials would be even-handed | 20:28 |
| jeblair | markmc: we're not all comfortable being confrontational. and in public. i'd like to keep the door open to people that might want to help our elections stay clean but whose first inclination is not to start a kerfufle on the mailing list :) | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: you might not always be our election coordinator, so we shouldn't make this about *you* personally | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: +1 | 20:28 |
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| ttx | jeblair: +1 | 20:28 |
| anteaya | markmc: fair enough but I would hope that future election pairs would be even-handed | 20:28 |
| markmc | setting up a process which could turn a genuine mistake into a nasty situation ... | 20:28 |
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| anteaya | dhellmann: no I agree, but future pairs of election officials | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | markmc: do you think it's more likely the TC could avoid that than an individual election official? | 20:29 |
| markmc | dhellmann, yes, very much so | 20:29 |
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| sdague | honestly, I'm not sure I even have a strong lean at this point. I can see both of these approaches. I do get concerned though if we aren't actively reenforcing our culture, even if it means some conflict. | 20:29 |
| markmc | dhellmann, the only issue is the weird situation with half of the TC not having a mandate | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | ok, so let's have the election official report to the TC and then issue a report to the ML | 20:29 |
| anteaya | sdague: +1 | 20:29 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: I can do that | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | markmc: true, but half does | 20:30 |
| anteaya | or half the tc | 20:30 |
| anteaya | or the tc delegation | 20:30 |
| anteaya | or however the tc wants to identify the group | 20:30 |
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| anteaya | personally I would prefer it | 20:30 |
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| anteaya | then if the tc wants, the tc can report to the ED | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | the full tc, including those up for re-election, to avoid having 1/2 stage a coup :-) | 20:31 |
| markmc | and I'd hope the TC would use it as a "teachable moment" as eglynn puts it | 20:31 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: I'm fine with that too | 20:31 |
| markmc | even if a mistake, discuss openly so everyone learns | 20:31 |
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| dhellmann | yes, I would lean heavily toward dealing with it quietly unless it was an extreme case | 20:31 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: I would just need timeframes, this group prior to this date, this group after this date | 20:31 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: +1 | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | perhaps leaving names out of the public discussion, for example | 20:31 |
| anteaya | I'm for reduction of gossip | 20:32 |
| markmc | suggest this at one point - http://paste.openstack.org/show/85709/ | 20:32 |
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| markmc | in the review | 20:32 |
| anteaya | get to the facts, address the facts | 20:32 |
| anteaya | gossip just hurts everybody | 20:32 |
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| dhellmann | anteaya: the TC is the TC until the elections are complete, no? | 20:32 |
| ttx | markmc: sounds good | 20:33 |
| ttx | dhellmann: half of it is running for election though | 20:33 |
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| ttx | so I like the idea that the half that still has 6 months to go would consider te complaint | 20:33 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: yeah, see that is where I need some timeframes | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ok, I can go along with that | 20:33 |
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| anteaya | markmc: I'm fine with the paste | 20:34 |
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| dhellmann | markmc: I like what you have in that pastebin | 20:34 |
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| dhellmann | who's going to work on bringing these 3 things together? | 20:34 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: do you want to? | 20:34 |
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| * dhellmann should have seen that coming | 20:34 | |
| dhellmann | sure, if you like | 20:34 |
| markmc | hehe | 20:34 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: thanks | 20:34 |
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| ttx | heh | 20:35 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: I can work with you too | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | do we want a third proposal? | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: thanks | 20:35 |
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| eglynn | I like most of markmc's proposal, except for the optional redaction of names | 20:35 |
| ttx | dhellmann: or iterate on one of the others, your call | 20:35 |
| markmc | dhellmann, no harm in another proposal, bring elements of each together | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | ok, I'll probably do a third just to keep it clear | 20:35 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: do as you see fit, as long as someone is willing to report behaviour that is questionable so it doesn't perist, I'm happy | 20:35 |
| ttx | dhellmann: famous last words | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | ttx: don't you have a game to watch? | 20:36 |
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| zaneb | eglynn: because you don't want them redacted, or you don't want it to be optional? | 20:36 |
| ttx | dhellmann: somehow the germans stopped scoring at 5-0 | 20:36 |
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| eglynn | zaneb: both ... I'd prefer to avoid speculation and rumor as to who was involved | 20:36 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: Je suis désolé | 20:36 |
| ttx | ok, ready to move to next topic ? | 20:37 |
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| * markmc is 50/50 on redaction - wouldn't want "shaming", wouldn't want rumors, would hope we can be adults, yet names aren't required for it to be a teachable moment | 20:37 | |
| markmcclain | ttx: I think we've covered this one | 20:37 |
| ttx | ok then | 20:38 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:38 | |
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| ttx | * Resolution requesting designated sections from projects (https://review.openstack.org/100675) | 20:38 |
| ttx | I suspect we should abandon this one now, let me know if you disagree | 20:38 |
| ttx | * Add translation support requirement (https://review.openstack.org/97872) | 20:38 |
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| mikal | I agree | 20:38 |
| ttx | There seems to be some guidance needed as to the type of testing we require | 20:38 |
| ttx | I tried to comment to that effect | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | yes, do we need to write up the formal response or is the log from the last meeting enough? | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | oops, that was about the designated sections :-) | 20:39 |
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| markmc | dhellmann, russellb's summary blog is plenty clear IMHO | 20:39 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I don't think we need to write up that we wn't make a resolution on something... But if you think that's useful, we could | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | markmc: ok, I think I missed that so I'll look for it. | 20:40 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: nah, I wasn't sure what the defcore committee wanted | 20:40 |
| markmc | unless anyone objects to how it characterizes what went on? | 20:40 |
| russellb | http://www.openstack.org/blog/2014/07/openstack-technical-committee-update-july-1/ | 20:40 |
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| ttx | is sdague around? | 20:41 |
| sdague | ttx: yes | 20:41 |
| markmc | #link http://www.openstack.org/blog/2014/07/openstack-technical-committee-update-july-1/ | 20:41 |
| ttx | sdague: it looks like Andreas and the i18n folks want more... precision of what kind of tests we want | 20:41 |
| jeblair | if there's a test, it should be a gate test, not a periodic one | 20:41 |
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| dhellmann | russellb: good write-up | 20:42 |
| markmc | jeblair, you basically need to run everything in every locale | 20:42 |
| sdague | jeblair: I think that's probably a different discussion | 20:42 |
| ttx | I just want the blatant hole covered, but yeah, I agree that if it's not gating it's likely to be ignored | 20:42 |
| russellb | dhellmann: thank you | 20:42 |
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| markmc | jeblair, running on just the translation import jobs might do it | 20:42 |
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| jeblair | sdague: sure, but it was a question actually asked in the review :) | 20:42 |
| sdague | ttx: the problem is, it's going to be ignored in the gate anyway | 20:42 |
| sdague | people will recheck grind on it | 20:42 |
| sdague | if it's not working | 20:43 |
| russellb | dhellmann: had review/editing help from ttx, markmc, sdague (at least, sorry if i forgot someone) | 20:43 |
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| ttx | sdague: except I suspect rechecking won't really help ? | 20:43 |
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| jeblair | sdague: i think the case being considered is when translations actually just don't work, yeah | 20:43 |
| ttx | doesn't seem like the type of test that would trigger rare issues | 20:44 |
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| jeblair | markmc: that makes sense if it's the translation import that's most likely to break operation due to errors | 20:44 |
| jeblair | markmc: is that the case? | 20:44 |
| ttx | anyway, just wanted to attract your attention to the fact that they need some guidance there | 20:44 |
| jeblair | or is it the case that people could break things by changing some log format translation function call or something? | 20:44 |
| markmc | jeblair, I think so - struggling to concoct another case | 20:44 |
| sdague | ttx: sure, sorry, with all the gate stuff my queue of paying attention is sort of at overflow | 20:45 |
| jeblair | (i'm genuinely asking -- i'm not that familiar with the mechanisms here) | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: it's possible someone could remove arguments to a message, and the existing translations would then expect a value that isn't present | 20:45 |
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| jeblair | dhellmann: and that would only be detected if you set a non-c locale? | 20:45 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: yes, because the default message would be changed in place | 20:45 |
| markmc | jeblair, it's usually a format string that the translator has messed up such that we get format errors at runtime | 20:45 |
| ttx | markmc: there were unusable translatons shipped in releases in the past... would be good to look back at those cases ad see what made tem fail | 20:45 |
| sdague | yeh, this is the thing where I'm sort of surprised the i18n team doesn't have an answer, because they know what's supposed to work in a real cloud. I'd kind of expect them to propose what they expect to work in such a situation. | 20:45 |
| markmc | jeblair, there is some automated checking of that with msgfmt -c, but it's not perfect AFAIR | 20:46 |
| sdague | and then we go from there | 20:46 |
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| dhellmann | OTOH, the Message class could be made to trap those formatting errors and return the original message | 20:46 |
| markmc | dhellmann, possible, yeah | 20:46 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: that seems more elegant | 20:46 |
| * dhellmann checks if that's already the case | 20:46 | |
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| ttx | anyway, I think we can provide guidance on that review | 20:46 |
| ttx | no need to solve it now | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | I don't see it doing anything that smart. I'll open a bug for that. | 20:47 |
| jeblair | if we want more, due to the combinatorics inovlved, we may want to use static analysis | 20:47 |
| jeblair | ttx: ack | 20:47 |
| ttx | * Modify Images mission to fit Artifact Repository (https://review.openstack.org/98002) | 20:47 |
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| ttx | I think we have a winner there | 20:47 |
| ttx | the title change is still blocked on marketing feedback | 20:48 |
| ttx | due next week. | 20:48 |
| ttx | so approving the mission change would effectively unblock glance | 20:48 |
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| jeblair | changing the mission now and title later seems like a good path forward | 20:48 |
| russellb | +1 | 20:49 |
| ttx | we can tweak the program name later when everyone is comfortable with it | 20:49 |
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| ttx | cool, will approve when it gets 7 YES | 20:49 |
| ttx | if it hasn't already | 20:49 |
| jeblair | also, if it completely fails to happen, we don't have egg on our faces. :) | 20:49 |
| russellb | ha, fair point | 20:49 |
| ttx | #topic Housekeeping changes (programs.yaml) | 20:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Housekeeping changes (programs.yaml) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:49 | |
| ttx | Those changes will all be approved unless someone complains: | 20:49 |
| ttx | * Adding Horizon mission statement (https://review.openstack.org/102050) | 20:49 |
| ttx | * Rename security-guide to security-doc (https://review.openstack.org/104295) | 20:49 |
| ttx | * Add docs-specs repo to Documentation program (https://review.openstack.org/104293) | 20:50 |
| ttx | * add keystonemiddleware to keystone projects (https://review.openstack.org/102305) | 20:50 |
| russellb | still a -1 from dhellmann on horizon mission statement | 20:50 |
| ttx | dhellmann: do you stand by it? Or is david-lyle reply acceptable to you ? | 20:50 |
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| dhellmann | I'll stick with my -1 but won't object if someone wants to vote to overrule me. I think it's a mistake to mix implementation requirements into the mission text. | 20:51 |
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| ttx | OK, I'll wendar ait for majority vote on that one then | 20:51 |
| ttx | err | 20:51 |
| ttx | I'll wait for majority vote | 20:51 |
| ttx | tabfail | 20:51 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:52 | |
| ttx | Looks like we can get the K vote started | 20:52 |
| russellb | awesome! | 20:52 |
| russellb | have the final list of candidates? | 20:52 |
| ttx | let me see which options passed the checks | 20:52 |
| ttx | unfortunately Kepler didn't make it | 20:52 |
| ttx | so I asked that we add Kilo | 20:53 |
| jeblair | ?? | 20:53 |
| ttx | jeblair: Nvidia Kepler blame | 20:53 |
| markmc | poor kepler, we barely knew him | 20:53 |
| ttx | GPUs for cloud computing | 20:53 |
| * eglynn loses his bet on Kepler :( | 20:53 | |
| ttx | just a sec | 20:53 |
| ttx | fetching list | 20:53 |
| ttx | Keryado, Kleber, Kourou, and Kyoto + Kilo | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | Kléber has a metro stop close by for photo ops. | 20:54 |
| ttx | We can still remove a name from that list if we want to | 20:54 |
| russellb | Kyoto and Kilo are separate options right? :) | 20:54 |
| jeblair | kyoto is amusing from the standpoint of having chosen "havana" when we were in portland. :) | 20:54 |
| ttx | Kyoto is a bit disturbing since Place de Kyoto in Paris doesn't even show on Goog Maps | 20:55 |
| markmcclain | jeblair: was thinking the same thing | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | we almost have to pick kyoto | 20:55 |
| ttx | I almost want to remove Keryado, since it's really small in Brittany, and not really a fun exception | 20:56 |
| ttx | but then, we can keep them all | 20:56 |
| ttx | Kourou is fun as well, since it's in South America | 20:56 |
| ttx | and is in the space theme | 20:56 |
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| markmc | kilo, less typing | 20:56 |
| markmc | we should have a 4 letter limit | 20:57 |
| mikal | Also, its time for openstack to go metric | 20:57 |
| russellb | i'd love a kilo of openstack right about now | 20:57 |
| ttx | anyway, I will start the public poll, probably thursday | 20:57 |
| ttx | And yes, I'll vote Kilo | 20:57 |
| russellb | takes the edge off | 20:57 |
| jeblair | markmc: one letter limit! | 20:57 |
| ttx | It's been named K for so long anyway | 20:57 |
| ttx | it has to stand for Kilo | 20:57 |
| russellb | yup | 20:57 |
| zaneb | yah, in my head it's already Kilo | 20:57 |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone | 20:58 |
| ttx | zaneb: unfortunately devs are not the only ones to vote, so expect Kyoto to win | 20:58 |
| zaneb | lol | 20:58 |
| * zaneb thought Jeckyll was robbed | 20:58 | |
| * markmcclain agrees | 20:58 | |
| russellb | zaneb: agreed | 20:58 |
| jogo | ttx: any thoughts of having the TC sort out API feature discoverability. several projects are independently looking into it | 20:59 |
| zaneb | ttx: maybe you should also send the announcement to openstack-dev? I usually miss it on the openstack list | 20:59 |
| clarkb | there is a kyoto france? | 20:59 |
| ttx | clarkb: there is a place de Kyoto Paris (the icehouse exception) | 20:59 |
| ttx | jogo: which projects? | 21:00 |
| ttx | jogo: could be a good cross-project meeting topic / ML thread first | 21:00 |
| russellb | clarkb: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_de_Kyoto | 21:00 |
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| jogo | ttx: nova (indirectly) and trove | 21:00 |
| ttx | ok, we are out of time | 21:00 |
| jogo | ttx: good point | 21:00 |
| sdague | jogo: I think that's got to be ML thread | 21:00 |
| markmcclain | jogo: neutron too | 21:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 8 21:01:07 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-08-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-08-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-08-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
| clarkb | russellb: thanks | 21:01 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone, good one | 21:01 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:01 |
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| eglynn | o/ | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:01 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:01 |
| zaneb | o/ | 21:01 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:01 |
| dolphm | o/ for just a couple minutes | 21:01 |
| notmyname | here | 21:01 |
| ttx | didn't plan to have a meeting today, but mtreinish added an agenda item! | 21:02 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:02 |
| mikal | Hi | 21:02 |
| mtreinish | ttx: heh, I'm not the only one | 21:02 |
| markwash | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | and eglynn | 21:02 |
| ttx | damn you all! | 21:02 |
| eglynn | sorry! | 21:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 8 21:03:01 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:03 |
| * eglynn didn't realize the meeting was off | 21:03 | |
| ttx | Agenda for today is available at: | 21:03 |
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| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:03 |
| ttx | #topic Actions from previous meeting | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from previous meeting (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| ttx | I documented SPD and SAD, in case you want to use them for Juno in your projects: | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/SpecProposalDeadline | 21:03 |
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| mestery | ttx: Thanks! | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/SpecApprovalDeadline | 21:03 |
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| ttx | #topic News from the 1:1 sync points | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| ttx | There were no 1:1 sync points today since I've been traveling | 21:03 |
| ttx | If any of you has news items, just shout now | 21:03 |
| ttx | Swift 2.0.0 was out but I guess everyone noticed that | 21:04 |
| ttx | #topic Other program news | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:04 | |
| dhellmann | I'm starting work on cross-project unit test jobs (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95885/) in the next couple of days. | 21:04 |
| ttx | Infra, QA, Docs... anything you'd like to mention ? | 21:04 |
| ttx | dhellmann: what is a cross-project unit test? | 21:05 |
| * ttx follows link | 21:05 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: running unit tests for projects using master of oslo libraries, and vice versa | 21:05 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ah, ok | 21:05 |
| zaneb | nifty | 21:06 |
| dhellmann | we already have integration tests via d-g, but this will prevent breaking unit tests with new releases (we did that a couple of times last cycle) | 21:06 |
| devananda | dhellmann: ++ | 21:06 |
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| ttx | any other news ? | 21:06 |
| ttx | #topic Neutron parallel gate job switchover (mtreinish) | 21:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Neutron parallel gate job switchover (mtreinish) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:07 | |
| ttx | mtreinish: floor is yours | 21:07 |
| mtreinish | ttx: ok thanks | 21:07 |
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| mtreinish | so switching the neutron jobs over to parallel is going to happen soon | 21:08 |
| mestery | mtreinish: Yay! | 21:08 |
| ttx | mtreinish: didn't we do that once already ? | 21:08 |
| mtreinish | right now they're the only jobs that still run tempest serially in the gate | 21:08 |
| mtreinish | ttx: not for the neutron jobs | 21:08 |
| ttx | ok | 21:08 |
| sdague | ttx: no, we got really close, then the January massive gate wedge happened | 21:08 |
| mtreinish | we've had a nonvoting job parallel job for a while | 21:08 |
| mtreinish | so the question I wanted to get opinions on was whether we make the switch everywhere | 21:09 |
| mtreinish | or we have an asymmetrical gate with neutron (ie switch it to gate parallel for neutron and leave it serial on all the other projects) | 21:09 |
| mtreinish | the concern from salv-orlando and others was that the reliability of the jobs goes down slightly after switching to parallel | 21:10 |
| russellb | is neutron running all of tempest yet? | 21:10 |
| mtreinish | russellb: this switch will include that more or less | 21:10 |
| russellb | i see. ok | 21:10 |
| mikal | I feel like you should make it everywhere if you're going to do it | 21:10 |
| mikal | But if its unreliable, probably shouldn't do it at all | 21:10 |
| jogo | mtreinish: I think switching neutron first sounds good, so if things do go wrong they don't bring everything down. | 21:10 |
| ttx | mtreinish: did you quantify the difference in ... reliability ? | 21:10 |
| mtreinish | ttx: salv-orlando's ML thread had some numbers | 21:11 |
| mtreinish | let me pull up that link | 21:11 |
| jogo | mtreinish: I am a fan of making changes like this slowly and carefully and not all at once | 21:11 |
| sdague | mikal: well everything is unreliable to some degree. Nova fails unit tests in the gate some times. It's all a matter of degrees. | 21:11 |
| mtreinish | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-June/038496.html | 21:11 |
| mikal | jogo: I agree it should be rolled out in steps, but I thik the end goal should be consistency | 21:11 |
| ttx | jogo++ | 21:11 |
| jogo | mikal: yup | 21:11 |
| mtreinish | jogo: the concern with it being asymmetrical is that we will break the neutron gate at some point | 21:12 |
| jogo | mtreinish: can we leave one serial job in neutron gate? | 21:12 |
| jogo | just to be safe | 21:12 |
| devananda | so in a situation like this, i'd prefer to make it voting within the project but not elsewhere yet | 21:12 |
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| mtreinish | jogo: it's the reverse case | 21:12 |
| sdague | jogo: that's not actually the concern | 21:12 |
| devananda | primarily to help developers within the project avoid introducing new issues that this would catch | 21:12 |
| mikal | So... Making this change would triple the fail rate? | 21:12 |
| mikal | Or am I reading this wrong? | 21:13 |
| jogo | sdague: what is the concern, sounds like i am missing something | 21:13 |
| devananda | mikal: taht's how I read it, too | 21:13 |
| mikal | Triple is a pretty big increase | 21:13 |
| mikal | (Noting that it might be telling us about actual neutron bugs though) | 21:13 |
| sdague | jogo: in parallel things like hitting keystone and the rest of the services change dramatically | 21:13 |
| sdague | if they change an access pattern that doesn't work for neutron, neutron is wedge, and they can't fix it | 21:13 |
| devananda | from ~10% to ~30% | 21:13 |
| mtreinish | mikal: it should only be about 2x | 21:14 |
| mtreinish | mikal: there are still some outstanding big bugs which is why we haven't switched yet | 21:14 |
| mikal | mtreinish: ahhh, at the end of the email he says 2x _if_ some bugs can be fixed | 21:14 |
| sdague | actually, you have to compare the check queues | 21:14 |
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| mikal | "Summarizing the only failure modes specific to the full job seem to be C & | 21:15 |
| mikal | D. If we were able to fix those we should reasonably expect a failure rate | 21:15 |
| mikal | of about 6.5%. That's still almost twice as the smoke job, but I deem it | 21:15 |
| mikal | acceptable for two reasons" | 21:15 |
| jogo | sdague: right, but what is the risk of moving neturon to parallel before the rest? | 21:15 |
| sdague | jogo: because this job doesn't just test neutron | 21:15 |
| sdague | it's a configuration that includes neutron | 21:15 |
| sdague | testing everything | 21:15 |
| jogo | sdague: ah right, so keystone may wedge neutron only | 21:15 |
| sdague | yep | 21:15 |
| devananda | so the summary at the end of that mail seems to support teh possibility of making it asymmetric initially | 21:15 |
| mtreinish | jogo: or more likely nova... | 21:15 |
| jogo | I think that risk is fairly small, while the risk of parallel neutron breaking everything is higher. | 21:16 |
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| sdague | jogo: honestly, with all the races in security groups in nova that we've been diving in, I'd actually say there is a pretty good chance we're going to 'fix' something and break neutron in the process. | 21:16 |
| ttx | mtreinish: I still tend to prefer enabling it for neutron only as a first step, but I'll happily defer to the gatemasters | 21:17 |
| sdague | ttx: honestly, I'm actually good with neutron first as well | 21:17 |
| mtreinish | ttx: well I was initially opposed to that, but I don't really feel to strongly about it | 21:17 |
| sdague | but I did want to make sure the other side downfalls were clear | 21:17 |
| jogo | sdague: that may be true. Sounds like we agree | 21:18 |
| mtreinish | as long as we keep our eyes open about the issues with doing it | 21:18 |
| sdague | so it means if we do that, the core teams for other projects are going to have to sign up to moving on changes fast if they broke neutron | 21:18 |
| ttx | mtreinish: the goal being... to flesh out issues without breaking everyone else... and make it all parallel asap | 21:18 |
| mtreinish | devananda: knows firsthand how much fun an asymmetrical gate is | 21:18 |
| mestery | mtreinish: ++ | 21:18 |
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| ttx | ok, anything else on that topic? | 21:18 |
| devananda | mtreinish: indeed .... | 21:19 |
| jogo | mtreinish: you said this will enable full tempest too? | 21:19 |
| mtreinish | jogo: yes | 21:19 |
| mtreinish | although there are still a bunch of skip if neutrons in there because of api issues | 21:19 |
| jogo | mtreinish: awesome then we can do https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100033/ after | 21:19 |
| mtreinish | ttx: that's all I had, we've got a direction to move this forward when it's ready | 21:19 |
| sdague | jogo: no, I really don't want to do that | 21:19 |
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| ttx | ok, I think we can move on then | 21:20 |
| ttx | #topic Are we digging ourselves into a backporting hole with branchless Tempest? (eglynn) | 21:20 |
| jogo | sdague: oh? lets talk after | 21:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Are we digging ourselves into a backporting hole with branchless Tempest? (eglynn) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:20 | |
| eglynn | context is: in ceilo we're begining to see featureful backports to stable just to facilitate branchless Tempest | 21:20 |
| ttx | eglynn: here is the mike | 21:20 |
| eglynn | example ... https://review.openstack.org/104863 | 21:20 |
| eglynn | in this case it was a kinda featureful fix for a bug of *omission* ... i.e. ceilo wasn't handling the cinder notification at all | 21:20 |
| ttx | they shall be rejected by the stable team, no? | 21:20 |
| devananda | i've been wondering when this would be brought up | 21:21 |
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| devananda | ironic hasn't hit it yet, but i've started to suspect we will hit this soon | 21:21 |
| sdague | eglynn: so are notifications part of your API contract? | 21:21 |
| eglynn | ttx: yep would be in the normal course of events | 21:21 |
| eglynn | sdague: so question is ... is leaving the backporting policy unchanged a goal of branchless tempest? | 21:21 |
| sdague | eglynn: the point was to enforce published API contract | 21:21 |
| sdague | because we were slipping it a lot | 21:22 |
| eglynn | so I guess the key problem is that some of these ceilometer tests are not strictly API tests | 21:22 |
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| sdague | ok, so then they probably shouldn't be in tempest | 21:22 |
| eglynn | i.e. we want to assert that a certain notification emitted by another service is consumed by ceilometer and the expected metering datapoints appear in ceilometer | 21:22 |
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| eglynn | sdague: do we have another integration tets harness for such tests to go to? ;) | 21:23 |
| sdague | eglynn: nope | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | this is a bit like saying "when we ask nova's API to launch an instance, it actually makes a usable instance" | 21:23 |
| devananda | eglynn: what about if you add a certain notification, say during the Juno cycle, which wasn't in Icehouse, and want to test that? | 21:23 |
| devananda | eglynn: is taht the situation you're in, or have i misunderstood? | 21:23 |
| eglynn | devananda: so basically the situation is a little like scenario #1 "New Tests for new features" in the BP | 21:23 |
| sdague | dhellmann: so I consider a working compute part of the API contract | 21:23 |
| eglynn | #link https://github.com/openstack/qa-specs/blob/master/specs/implemented/branchless-tempest.rst | 21:24 |
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| mtreinish | devananda: https://github.com/openstack/tempest/blob/master/README.rst#1-new-tests-for-new-features | 21:24 |
| eglynn | ... but without the obvious discoverability in this case | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | sdague: an ceilometer says that the events it collects will be returnable by the API, but the API itself does not specify what events are collected -- like nova doesn't specify which images are availble | 21:24 |
| jeblair | i'm sorely lacking in background here, but it seems like "datapoints appear in ceilometer" might be part of the api contract; similarly to a nova instace showing up | 21:24 |
| devananda | right, without discoverability | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | sdague: because new event types can be created by end-users through the API, deployer custom code, etc. The API doesn't specify the event names. | 21:25 |
| jogo | this sounds like an issue in the ceilometer API itself | 21:25 |
| eglynn | jeblair: the API is the same ol' API, i.e. the query doesn't required a bump in the API version | 21:25 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ok, then the tempest test proposed isn't valid | 21:25 |
| sdague | because it makes too many assumptions on something not in the API | 21:25 |
| eglynn | jogo: I fear we may be bending the problem to fit the "solution" | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | sdague: so we don't want any tests that say that ceilometer does actually collect data from the other services? | 21:26 |
| sdague | dhellmann: is it a required part of the API? | 21:26 |
| jogo | eglynn: ? can you elaborate. I meant having an open ended API like that without discoverability is dangerous | 21:26 |
| eglynn | sounds way too restrictive for an integration test harness | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | I think we want that tested somewhere, even though the list of events isn't defined in the ceilometer API. | 21:26 |
| eglynn | so I was chatting with dkranz a bit about this earlier | 21:26 |
| devananda | "can I store arbitrary data in this API" vs "when cinder does $thing, did $value get stored in ceilometer" ? | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | sdague: yes, ceilometer says it will "collect events" but it doesn't say which ones | 21:26 |
| eglynn | dkranz had the idea of micro-versioning the service (as opposed to the API) | 21:27 |
| eglynn | ... so that a test can be skipped on the basis of whether a particular commit is available or not | 21:27 |
| sdague | eglynn: how would that be reflected on a public cloud? | 21:27 |
| eglynn | ... which gives fine-grained discoverability when tempest is run in-CI-gate | 21:27 |
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| eglynn | sdague: I was waiting for you to ask that ... it doesn't help in that case | 21:28 |
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| eglynn | ... it seems like forcing tempest to do double-duty in that regard will restrict what we put into tempest (in it's role as the integration testing harness for the CI gate) | 21:28 |
| sdague | right, so I think this becomes one of those things where people keep throwing tests at tempest that aren't of the level of stability to really be part of it | 21:28 |
| devananda | so is "able to collect data" the feature? or "ceilo actually collects data from $service"? If the latter is the feature being tested, then AIUI, it's not related to the API version at all | 21:29 |
| devananda | eglynn: is ^ a fair summary of the question? | 21:29 |
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| dhellmann | I don't see this as a "stability" question, though. The problem is the events collected actually depend on ceilometer's pipeline configuration file as much as code. | 21:29 |
| eglynn | devananda: yep, the latter | 21:29 |
| devananda | eglynn: I feel like Ironic is bumping against a similar challenge with scenario testing | 21:29 |
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| eglynn | so do we need to split off the CI-focused and the public-cloud-capability-test-focused aspects of Tempest? | 21:29 |
| sdague | yeh, I think what's emerging is that for a long time we basically had unit tests and tempest | 21:30 |
| sdague | and I don't think that's the right approach going forward | 21:30 |
| devananda | eglynn: because I actually want to test what /nova/ does, and even though it's API isn't changing, in a future version of OpenStack, it may be capable of doing more things with Ironic than it is today | 21:30 |
| sdague | I think that projects really should have functional tests that run against a devstack just for their project which is in this middle ground | 21:30 |
| devananda | eglynn: which sounds similar to you testing the cinder->ceilo messages, not ceilo's API itself | 21:31 |
| eglynn | devananda: yep, and would those extra things be externally discoverable? | 21:31 |
| sdague | and Tempest needs to stay at the API stable boundary | 21:31 |
| devananda | sdague: ++ | 21:31 |
| devananda | eglynn: nope. | 21:31 |
| devananda | eglynn: since Nova doesn't expose what driver is being used | 21:31 |
| eglynn | devananda: k, so same problem I think | 21:31 |
| sdague | eglynn: right, because you actually want white box testing | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | sdague: those tests need to protect us so a project can't change the format of an event and that break ceilometer | 21:31 |
| jeblair | neutron has some functional testing along those lines | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | so we can't just run them against the project | 21:31 |
| eglynn | sdague: "projects really should have functional tests that run against a devstack just for their project" --> does that scale? | 21:32 |
| devananda | so we definitely need integration tests for the various cross-project interactions like this | 21:32 |
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| sdague | eglynn: honestly, it scales better than the current model | 21:32 |
| dhellmann | does that mean another functional test suite that is not tempest? | 21:32 |
| devananda | which is what tempest originally provided, based on my limited understanding | 21:32 |
| eglynn | (scale in terms of the QA exterpise to build such a harness on a per-project basis) | 21:32 |
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| clarkb | swift does it too | 21:33 |
| sdague | dhellmann: I actually think these are functional tests in the project itself | 21:33 |
| eglynn | (also in terms of CI resources to run all these seperate mini-tempests) | 21:33 |
| sdague | ceilometer owns ceilometers functional tests | 21:33 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: but ceilometer will be depending on information coming from other projects for these tests | 21:33 |
| jogo | shouldn't all cross-project interactions be versioned to help address this issue? | 21:33 |
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| jogo | with tested APIs | 21:33 |
| devananda | sdague: so what if $otherproject breaks the APi contract between it and ceilo? | 21:33 |
| eglynn | devananda: exactly | 21:33 |
| devananda | sdague: ditto for eg. nova <-> ironic | 21:33 |
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| dhellmann | jogo: yeah, there's no contract on notification format at all right now, afaict | 21:34 |
| sdague | devananda: so I think we actually can solve that with things like the contract unit test job we put in nova | 21:34 |
| devananda | or, for taht matter, any project and keyustoneclient | 21:34 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: yeah and I think that's the crux of the issue here | 21:34 |
| jogo | dhellmann: IMHO that is a bad | 21:34 |
| eglynn | so the contract around notifications is different to an API | 21:34 |
| sdague | eglynn: there is no contract on notifications | 21:34 |
| devananda | eglynn: eh? | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | totally agree; and jd__ had a blueprint to work on it but didn't get much traction | 21:34 |
| eglynn | notifications are versioned usually, for example | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: rpc payloads are versioned, but are notifications? | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | that might have changed since I was involved closely with this part of ceilometer... | 21:35 |
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| eglynn | dhellmann: I mean *not* versioned | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | ah | 21:35 |
| eglynn | Freudian slip :) | 21:35 |
| jogo | eglynn: heh | 21:35 |
| sdague | so here is my point of view based on a month of trying to dig us out of current gate situations. | 21:35 |
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| sdague | I don't think the current model of pile more into tempest, and expand tempest scope, is helping | 21:35 |
| sdague | because people aren't helping fix the issues | 21:36 |
| sdague | they are just recheck grinding | 21:36 |
| sdague | so functional / grey / white box testing that people recheck grind on because their nova change is getting broken by a ceilometer test.... I'm not sure that's going to help us move forward | 21:37 |
| jogo | s/tempest/OpenStack/ and that statement is still fairly true | 21:37 |
| eglynn | sdague: isn't there's also a strong incentive to pile more & more into tempest in terms of TC mandated requirements for tempest coverage? | 21:37 |
| devananda | jogo: exactly | 21:37 |
| sdague | eglynn: there are API coverage needs | 21:37 |
| devananda | jogo: that's the crux of the problem, IMO, but also a different discussion | 21:37 |
| sdague | but testing the API, and doing functional testing of cinder notifications which were not provided by the API is different | 21:37 |
| jogo | devananda: agreed | 21:38 |
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| vrovachev | sdague: but these tests are good check compatibility projects | 21:38 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: I agree with the need for separate tests. I don't agree that *all* of them can be project-specific. | 21:38 |
| sdague | vrovachev: then they should be valid across an API | 21:38 |
| jogo | sdague: can we redefine the question to, should this be an API discoverable thing? | 21:38 |
| sdague | jogo: sure | 21:38 |
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| jogo | because this sounds like something that probably should be. If I am using a public ceilometer I want to know what it supports etc | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | jogo: We could add an API to ceilometer to discover what sort of data is being collected at all. But how do we version the response, if the deployer can change it. | 21:39 |
| devananda | sdague: in the case of ironic, the problem is the API being exercised is not the one being tested by tempest | 21:39 |
| eglynn | sdague: the interaction between ceilo and all services simply isn't API based in it entireity | 21:39 |
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| jogo | eglynn: I think thats one of the big issues here | 21:40 |
| devananda | eglynn: in this situation, is the end-user communicating with ceilo, or is the notification API "hidden" behind other services? | 21:40 |
| sdague | eglynn: right, I do get that. But I also get the scope problems we currently have. | 21:40 |
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| vrovachev | sdague: sdague: then it is necessary mock all API requests | 21:40 |
| eglynn | devananda: in this situation the end user snaphots a volume so they only interact with the cinder API | 21:40 |
| sdague | eglynn: and you've caught me at a particular level of frustration, because realistically I've not been reviewing tempest code for the better part of a month now | 21:40 |
| devananda | eglynn: i suspect again we're facing the same issue -- this isn't discoverable by tempest because tempest isn't talking to the API being tested | 21:41 |
| sdague | because everyone wants to add new tests, no one wants to debug the fails we hit | 21:41 |
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| vrovachev | sdague: and this is tests to validate and not functional tests | 21:41 |
| eglynn | devananda: yes, in our case tempest talks to the ceilo API to check for a side effect of the interaction done via notifications | 21:41 |
| devananda | sdague: because there's a mandate that projects add more tests if they want to graduate / stay integrated | 21:41 |
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| ttx | OK, I think we should think a bit more about this and maybe discuss it n the list. Problem looks a bit more complex than we can solve in a one-hour IRC meeting | 21:42 |
| sdague | devananda: well, until we can dig out of the current fail pit, we can't really sort out the long term issues here. | 21:42 |
| eglynn | ttx: I can bring the topic to the ML tmrw, if everyone is agreed to continue the discussion there? | 21:42 |
| jogo | ttx: ++ | 21:42 |
| sdague | eglynn: sure | 21:42 |
| ttx | eglynn: sounds good to me | 21:42 |
| devananda | eglynn: ++ | 21:43 |
| eglynn | sdague: cool thank you sir! | 21:43 |
| ttx | at least we established now that there is no easy way out | 21:43 |
| SlickNik | eglynn: Sounds good, thanks! | 21:43 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:43 | |
| ttx | Feel free to continue discussing now :) | 21:43 |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 21:43 |
| sdague | :) | 21:43 |
| ttx | meanwhile, in Brazil... | 21:43 |
| markwash | for srs | 21:44 |
| jeblair | i haven't seen a gate status email to the dev list in a while | 21:44 |
| jeblair | did i just miss it, or did folks stop sending those? | 21:44 |
| * eglynn is running out of fingers to count the German goals ;) | 21:44 | |
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| jeblair | sdague, jogo, mtreinish: ^ ? | 21:44 |
| sdague | jeblair: honestly, I ran out of energy to do them | 21:45 |
| jogo | jeblair: I ahve been on vacation' | 21:45 |
| ttx | jeblair: do you miss them / do you think they helped? | 21:45 |
| jeblair | it's apparent that sdague is frustrated, i just want to make sure everyone else actually knows that :) | 21:45 |
| jeblair | ttx: i don't know. from the sidelines, i thought they did | 21:45 |
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| jeblair | i _personally_ found them helpful just to know what was going on | 21:46 |
| jeblair | that's not a good enough reason to do them | 21:46 |
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| jeblair | but i did think that they usually got results for the top offending bugs | 21:46 |
| sdague | jeblair: yeh, when it seemed like they were drawing more folks in, it was easier to get motived on them. But when the decision is 'do I write this up, or try to fix one of these' I've been opting for fixing | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | jeblair, sdague : I found them useful, too, to understand the state of what's being dealt with. | 21:47 |
| mestery | dhellmann: +1, I also found them interesting and useful as well. | 21:47 |
| sdague | dhellmann: right, but did you find them useful enough to devote 3 days to fixing things :) | 21:47 |
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| sdague | because being interesting isn't really the goal | 21:48 |
| jeblair | indeed | 21:48 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: if I had had 3 days, I might have, but I at least knew why my other patches weren't working and was less likely to recheck them as a result | 21:48 |
| jeblair | i'm not asking for myself, more thinking that if i'm surprised that sdague is frustrated by the gate status, perhaps other people who might be able to help would be as well | 21:48 |
| sdague | so if I have commitments from people that me doing that will bring more people to fixing issues, that's an easy trade off | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: right, I'm not asking sdague to keep it up, but I think it was valuable so maybe we need to find some community members who can take that task off his plate | 21:49 |
| dhellmann | not everyone is going to be able to dive right in and debug, but summarizing the state of the most common gate failures doesn't require that level of expertise (at least I thin k not, maybe I'm wrong) | 21:49 |
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| jeblair | dhellmann: i think you may be right; it probably requires paying some attention over time, but not huge expertise | 21:50 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh, another volunteer to do that would be appreciated as well | 21:50 |
| devananda | jogo: sdague: any thoughts on what to use for white box integration testing as the scope of OpenStack continues to expand, and the gate becomes exponentially more complex? | 21:50 |
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| sdague | devananda: realistically, I think we need to reevaluate whether we think that's sustainable | 21:51 |
| devananda | this is something we should probably start talking about since it seems to be on our minds already | 21:51 |
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| ttx | I think the gate news, IF relatively low cost, can help getting people interested | 21:51 |
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| ttx | At least that gives me good posts to point people to when they ask "where should I help" | 21:51 |
| devananda | sdague: i don't think it is. I thought (and said) that over a year ago, fwiw | 21:52 |
| dhellmann | sdague: the board asked us at the summit how they can help, maybe we can take this specific request for volunteering to a few of them? | 21:52 |
| sdague | dhellmann: sure | 21:52 |
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| sdague | I'd be more than happy to help bootstrap folks here | 21:52 |
| jogo | devananda: I agree with sdague on this one | 21:52 |
| ttx | OK, I think we can wrap up | 21:52 |
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| ttx | before we kill the gate in frustration | 21:53 |
| devananda | jogo: i maen, i agree as well -- i don't think it's sustainable | 21:53 |
| ttx | when you think you had a bad day, consider Brazil's team day | 21:53 |
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| jogo | I fear OpenStack is facing feature sprawl without focusing on solidifying the foundations | 21:53 |
| sdague | devananda: realistically I think we need to be more surgical about this | 21:53 |
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| sdague | because we can actually put contract points in, like we did with ironic on nova | 21:54 |
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| ttx | maybe a topic for another meeting | 21:54 |
| sdague | ttx: sure :) | 21:55 |
| devananda | ttx: yep | 21:55 |
| ttx | last words ? | 21:55 |
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| sdague | you just said it was open discussion | 21:55 |
| ttx | OK then, let's close it :) | 21:55 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 8 21:55:37 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-08-21.03.html | 21:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-08-21.03.txt | 21:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-08-21.03.log.html | 21:55 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone! | 21:55 |
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| jeblair | what ttx _meant_ was open discussion about the world cup ;) | 21:55 |
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| ttx | jeez, what a beating | 21:56 |
| SlickNik | Thanks ttx! | 21:56 |
| devananda | jogo, sdague: will you be at oscon? | 21:56 |
| sdague | devananda: no | 21:56 |
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| jogo | devananda: no, got enough traveling in the near future | 21:56 |
| devananda | hm, k. i feel like this is worth talking in high bandwidth about at some point before paris | 21:57 |
| devananda | just not today :) | 21:57 |
| devananda | nova sprint? | 21:57 |
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| jogo | devananda: nova or germany yeah | 21:58 |
| clarkb | I will be there ish | 21:58 |
| jogo | sdague: what is your concern with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100033/ ? | 21:58 |
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| jogo | if neutron is running full tempest | 21:59 |
| sdague | jogo: because it's different | 22:00 |
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| sdague | there is a whole different network allocation set of paths in there | 22:01 |
| sdague | completely different databases | 22:01 |
| sdague | neutron is even talking about using a different mysql driver | 22:01 |
| Daisy | is this infrastructure meeting? | 22:01 |
| clarkb | Daisy: no we had our meeting 3 hours ago | 22:02 |
| clarkb | Daisy: but we are still hanging out in the infra channel if you want to chat | 22:02 |
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| Daisy | ok. I make mistake. | 22:02 |
| Daisy | Thanks, clarkb | 22:02 |
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| jogo | sdague: so that patch would drop neutron+mysql from the integrated gate, but it will still be tested in neutron. So is the concern here that we are sacrificing mysql coverage for postgres coverage? and we end up with sub-optimal coverge for both instead mysql and postgres? | 22:03 |
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| Daisy | clarkb: Just want to understand the translation platform discussion, I may contact with Elizabeth. | 22:03 |
| jogo | and you would rather see better mysql coverge and sacrifice postgres? | 22:03 |
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| sdague | jogo: yep | 22:04 |
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| sdague | jogo: because it's less different configs | 22:04 |
| sdague | which I actually think means handling the race cases are easier | 22:04 |
| jogo | sdague: yeah I buy that argument | 22:04 |
| clarkb | and you can still test the nitty gritty postgres bits outside of tempest | 22:04 |
| clarkb | that fact was really missed on the thread | 22:04 |
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| jogo | clarkb: how can we do that? | 22:05 |
| clarkb | jogo: we already do it | 22:05 |
| clarkb | database migrations are tested against myslq, postgres and sqlite | 22:05 |
| jogo | clarkb: oh right unit tests | 22:05 |
| sdague | jogo: just stand up postgresql and run the db tests against it | 22:05 |
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| sdague | yeh, people are expecting too many magic bullets out of the tempest jobs | 22:06 |
| jogo | so now we just need to convince folks that we should drop all the postgres jobs | 22:06 |
| sdague | it catches a ton of stuff | 22:06 |
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| sdague | but it can only reach so far into the workings, because it's black box | 22:06 |
| sdague | so for white/grey box stuff closer to the projects is much better | 22:06 |
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| jogo | sdague: yeah I like that breakdown a lot | 22:07 |
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