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| nijaba | o/ | 15:58 |
|---|---|---|
| dachary | \o | 15:59 |
| jd___ | hi | 15:59 |
| dhellmann | hi | 16:00 |
| jd___ | let's go then :) | 16:00 |
| jd___ | #startmeeting | 16:01 |
| jd___ | #meetingname ceilometer | 16:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Jun 7 16:01:02 2012 UTC. The chair is jd___. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:01 |
| jd___ | #link https://lists.launchpad.net/openstack/msg12851.html | 16:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer' | 16:01 |
| jd___ | #chair nijaba dachary | 16:01 |
| openstack | Current chairs: dachary jd___ nijaba | 16:01 |
| jd___ | #topic actions from previous meetings | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions from previous meetings" | 16:01 | |
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| jd___ | dhellmann: so how was your demo? :) | 16:01 |
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| dhellmann | :-) | 16:02 |
| dhellmann | it went well | 16:02 |
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| dhellmann | I was able to show messages passing from the agent to the collector and being logged, both from notifications and polling | 16:02 |
| dachary | dhellmann: congratulations | 16:02 |
| dhellmann | thank you all, again, for all of the work you've put in. I wouldn't be nearly this far if I was doing it all myself. | 16:03 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: impressive! | 16:03 |
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| jd___ | great dhellmann :) | 16:04 |
| jd___ | nijaba: anything to report since you had a couple of action items? | 16:04 |
| nijaba | Well, I commented on the bug and I started the thread on configuration handling | 16:05 |
| jd___ | fair enough :) | 16:05 |
| jd___ | #topic Storage backend (high availability, SPOF etc.) | 16:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Storage backend (high availability, SPOF etc.)" | 16:06 | |
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| jd___ | now it's time to discuss how to store the collected data :) | 16:07 |
| dhellmann | our ops team is recommending postgres, in part because of familiarity and in part because they think it will handle the scale | 16:07 |
| jd___ | dhellmann wrote something cf https://lists.launchpad.net/openstack/msg12884.html | 16:07 |
| jd___ | #link https://lists.launchpad.net/openstack/msg12884.html | 16:07 |
| dhellmann | they have specifically warned me off of mongodb | 16:07 |
| dhellmann | but I don't expect everyone to want to use the same tool, which is why I proposed a plugin api | 16:08 |
| dhellmann | (thanks, jd___) | 16:08 |
| jd___ | dhellmann: I agree with your ops, but I'd suggest to use sqlalchemy as an abstract just because OS already did this choice | 16:08 |
| dhellmann | yes, absolutely | 16:08 |
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| dhellmann | I intend to have an "sql" or "rdbms" plugin that uses sqlalchemy | 16:08 |
| jd___ | but as you stated, this can be pluggable in our case, as you proved and wrote so we can start with one plugin | 16:08 |
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| dhellmann | it may be simplest to create a mongo plugin for testing and experimentation, but we wouldn't use it in production at dreamhost | 16:09 |
| nijaba | please, do NOT use SQL Alchemy. That would prevent us from using any noSQL db. You may want to use is in one of the pluging, but not as the plugin method | 16:09 |
| jd___ | nijaba: it's not the plugin method | 16:09 |
| nijaba | jd___: then that's fine | 16:09 |
| jd___ | :) | 16:09 |
| * nijaba thinks that's one of the bad elements remaining in OpenStack at the moment | 16:10 | |
| jd___ | dhellmann: well if we both want to use SQL I think so it's likely we can work on this plugin first | 16:10 |
| dhellmann | right, there would be a single plugin with a name like "rdbms" that uses sqlalchemy to talk to your DB of choice, but the plugin API would be a higher level thing | 16:10 |
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| dhellmann | agreed, jd___ | 16:10 |
| nijaba | that sounds good to me | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | the plugin will need more methods so the API server can use it to query the database, too, but I haven't given those any thought | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | I would expect them to map pretty closely to the queries in the API itself, though | 16:11 |
| jd___ | #agreed jd and dhellmann to focus on an SQL plugin storage | 16:11 |
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| nijaba | well, looks like we only have have the storage part so far | 16:11 |
| jd___ | dhellmann: indeed | 16:11 |
| nijaba | we need to define the maping to the API we defined earlier | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | jd___, do you know anything about how the other OS components handle database migrations? | 16:12 |
| jd___ | dhellmann: I know they use 'migrate' | 16:12 |
| jd___ | I even wrote one or two migration stuff in the last months | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | right, nijaba. We should at least add a method to retrieve the raw data so we can test getting data in and out | 16:12 |
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| dhellmann | jd___: oh, good, so you can do that part! :-) | 16:13 |
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| nijaba | dhellmann: that would sound like a nice first step | 16:13 |
| jd___ | dhellmann: it will only be needed for version 2! :-P | 16:13 |
| dhellmann | well, we have to have something to initialize the database, right? | 16:13 |
| jd___ | right, but sqlalchemy does that for us AFAIK | 16:13 |
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| dhellmann | I know it can be used to create the schema, but I think you have to tell it to do that explicitly | 16:14 |
| dhellmann | we can take that part of the discussion to the mailing list, though | 16:14 |
| jd___ | otherwise OS uses this to upgrade between releases: http://code.google.com/p/sqlalchemy-migrate/ | 16:14 |
| jd___ | IIRC | 16:14 |
| jd___ | dhellmann: sure :) | 16:14 |
| nijaba | so the plugin should abstract a migrate function... | 16:15 |
| jd___ | so everybody agrees on the plugin system proposed by dhellmann ? | 16:15 |
| nijaba | it's a good start, I think | 16:15 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 16:15 |
| jd___ | nijaba: if it's needed, each plugin handles its migration; i think mongodb migration can be easy to do since you don't have to do anything to add fields ;) | 16:15 |
| dachary | +1 | 16:15 |
| jd___ | #agreed use the plugin system proposed by dhellmann at https://lists.launchpad.net/openstack/msg12884.html | 16:16 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann: submit plugin branch for review and merging | 16:16 |
| nijaba | as long as we agree to always go through the abstraction to talk to the db, I think we are fine | 16:16 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, agreed | 16:16 |
| jd___ | sure | 16:17 |
| dachary | dhellmann: could you point me to the abstraction related to how the plugin is used to query the database ? | 16:18 |
| dhellmann | dachary, there aren't any query methods, yet | 16:18 |
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| dhellmann | just like there's a method to store a new event, there would be one or more methods to ask for event data | 16:18 |
| dhellmann | one would ask for all of the raw events, filtered by account, user, etc -- whatever the API args are | 16:18 |
| nijaba | in fac, I think we will have one method per API call type | 16:19 |
| dachary | that's non trivial to abstract. Or do you have an abstract model in mind already ? | 16:19 |
| dhellmann | yeah, probably | 16:19 |
| dhellmann | no, I haven't gotten that far | 16:19 |
| nijaba | the API is the abstraction... | 16:19 |
| dachary | nijaba: then the database plugin will be in charge of interpreting the API calls. That works for me. | 16:19 |
| dhellmann | we may be able to build the API server using fewer plugin API calls (too many APIs…) but they will map closely | 16:20 |
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| nijaba | agreed | 16:20 |
| dhellmann | the API service will do some parameter validation, call the plugin to get the data, then format it for return | 16:20 |
| nijaba | sounds like MVC applied to DB... | 16:20 |
| dhellmann | something like that :-) | 16:20 |
| nijaba | jd___: what do you think? | 16:21 |
| jd___ | I think like dhellmann :) | 16:22 |
| nijaba | jd___: should we capture on action on building a few example API calls to the plugin? | 16:22 |
| jd___ | we restrict the use of a storage plugin to one? | 16:22 |
| nijaba | jd___: one at a time? yes | 16:23 |
| jd___ | nijaba: not sure it's that useful since we have nothing (no code) related to API for now | 16:23 |
| dhellmann | jd___, yes, each collector instance would be using only one storage plugin but you could have multiple clusters writing the data to different databases if you wanted | 16:23 |
| nijaba | so maybe we should call it an Engine rather than a plugin | 16:23 |
| jd___ | yeah I meant one at time at runtime :) | 16:23 |
| jd___ | nijaba: +1 | 16:23 |
| nijaba | let's learn from quantum's mistake here ;) | 16:24 |
| jd___ | lol | 16:24 |
| * dhellmann shakes head | 16:24 | |
| dhellmann | "engine" it is | 16:24 |
| jd___ | #action dhellmann rename plugin to engine for storage backend ex-plugin-now-engine system | 16:24 |
| jd___ | I hope that's clear | 16:25 |
| dhellmann | I will do that before submitting the code for review | 16:25 |
| nijaba | thanks dhellmann | 16:25 |
| dachary | how do we address SPOF ? | 16:25 |
| dhellmann | with the database? | 16:26 |
| nijaba | well, that's why I wanted us to be able to suport NOSQL dbs | 16:26 |
| dhellmann | how does nosql relate to spof? | 16:26 |
| dachary | dhellmann: you mean by using a postgresql setup with no spof ? | 16:26 |
| dachary | for instance | 16:26 |
| jd___ | there's HA in SQL too | 16:26 |
| nijaba | true, but it is a bit easir to setup multiple conf=current master with some NoSQL than with postgres | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | I'm not an ops expert, but yes, my ops team didn't seem concerned about postgresql as a SPOF so I assume they are planning to cluster it | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, that can be true | 16:27 |
| jd___ | good ops :) | 16:28 |
| dhellmann | the feedback I was getting was that mongo might fall over if we push too much data in | 16:28 |
| dhellmann | that's anecdotal, but I have to trust my ops team, don't I? | 16:28 |
| dachary | in practice when you need to follow a method to implement "no SPOF", it usualy does not happen. | 16:28 |
| * jd___ thinks it's a religious war we don't want to get into | 16:28 | |
| nijaba | dhellmann: that's not the view from our ops here, but used to be until 6 month ago | 16:28 |
| * nijaba agrees with jd___ | 16:28 | |
| jd___ | (flat file anyone?) | 16:29 |
| dhellmann | pickle ftw | 16:29 |
| dachary | I think the idea of introducting a "no SPOF" in the definition of the database was to make it a default instead of a possibility that needs to be implemented on top. | 16:29 |
| jd___ | I think it was nijaba wanting to push nosql :) | 16:29 |
| dhellmann | do any of the SPOF solutions for databases require application code changes? | 16:29 |
| nijaba | dachary: how would you do this? Write to 2 dbs at once? | 16:29 |
| nijaba | my point was: let's not get stuck with an SQL only impelmentation. If we have an abstraction layer, then we can let the community play around and come up with solutions | 16:31 |
| dhellmann | I don't think we want the app to be responsible for database reliability. All of the "real" solutions I've seen support some sort of clustering | 16:31 |
| dhellmann | exactly, we can push that responsibility down into the plugin and not worry about it in the core app | 16:31 |
| dachary | I'd use mongodb because it has this concern built in from the start. Otherwise i'd follow Florian Haas advices regarding HA ;-) | 16:31 |
| dhellmann | has anyone done any work to estimate the amount of data they will be generating? | 16:32 |
| nijaba | dachary: I am hopping to get some resources soon to work on a mongodb engine... | 16:32 |
| dachary | nijaba: great ;-) | 16:32 |
| dachary | I'm just stating a concern but I don't see this as a blocker. | 16:32 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: I can take the action to build a calculator | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, excellent, that would be a real help | 16:33 |
| * nijaba think about a google spreadsheet, if that suits everyone | 16:33 | |
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| dhellmann | I have some estimates for the number of VMs we expect to have, but have not had time to do the math on data size, yet | 16:33 |
| jd___ | np | 16:33 |
| jd___ | think about Swift too | 16:34 |
| nijaba | swift as a source for metering message, or as a storgae engine? | 16:34 |
| jd___ | I meant source for metering | 16:34 |
| nijaba | k | 16:34 |
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| nijaba | #action nijaba to propose a google spreadsheet calculator to estimate volume of metering message (including nova, swift, cinder, quantum) | 16:36 |
| jd___ | anything else? | 16:37 |
| dhellmann | I think that covers everything I had related to storage | 16:37 |
| dachary | was there a agree on the fact that the database engine has a function to interpret the API queries in addition to the function to store the data ? | 16:37 |
| dachary | a agree => a "dash agree" ;-) | 16:38 |
| nijaba | I think there was. | 16:38 |
| dhellmann | dachary, I think we agreed there would likely be several methods related to querying | 16:38 |
| dhellmann | and that we still need to define them | 16:38 |
| dachary | I dont see the dash agree matching this | 16:39 |
| dhellmann | oh, we may not have recorded it that way | 16:39 |
| dhellmann | I just meant we seemed to come to consensus :-) | 16:39 |
| dachary | absolutely, I got that too ;-) | 16:39 |
| dhellmann | ok | 16:39 |
| jd___ | #agreed a database engine has a function to interpret the API queries in addition to the function to store the data | 16:40 |
| dachary | jd___: thanks | 16:40 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann: start mapping API queries to database engine methods | 16:40 |
| dhellmann | I'll put together a wiki page with some proposals and we can discuss on the list | 16:41 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: if you prime me with a first example, I can take care of the declinations | 16:41 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, sounds good | 16:41 |
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| dhellmann | was there something else on the agenda for today? | 16:43 |
| nijaba | Agent configuration mechanism? | 16:43 |
| jd___ | yep | 16:43 |
| jd___ | moving on then | 16:43 |
| jd___ | #topic Agent configuration mechanism | 16:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agent configuration mechanism" | 16:43 | |
| dhellmann | did we agree on the list that we would use text config files and leave it up to ops to manage them, as with the other components? | 16:43 |
| jd___ | that's my point of view at least | 16:44 |
| nijaba | so, I must say that I would not be happy with this for meter configuration | 16:44 |
| nijaba | I am fine with this being used for the global agent config | 16:44 |
| dachary | I think there are merits on complementing the configurations mechanisms. | 16:44 |
| nijaba | bt I think we risk to have unuseable date captured if not all meter for a given value are set to report the same way, or report at all | 16:45 |
| dachary | Configuration engines like puppet or chef have limitations. | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, I think I understand, but how often do you see the agent/meter configurations changing? | 16:45 |
| nijaba | it is a real data consistency problem | 16:45 |
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| nijaba | dhellmann: as often as marketing will ask for tsomthing new ;) | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | in that case, wouldn't it make sense to just collect as much data as possible? | 16:46 |
| nijaba | that would be the brute force approach | 16:46 |
| dhellmann | well, yeah :-) | 16:47 |
| dachary | I've worked with puppet recently and synchronisation with nagios : it's not pretty. We would be *much* better of using direct connections with the nagios plugins, if it was possible. Instead of going thru the puppet database. | 16:47 |
| jd___ | I don't even see what could be configurable and go wrong with plugins for now | 16:48 |
| nijaba | how hard do you think it is to have the meter configuration stored and retrived by the agents? | 16:48 |
| jd___ | except time sync problem but that we won't solve :) | 16:48 |
| dhellmann | time sync? isn't that solved by ntp? | 16:48 |
| nijaba | jd___: imagine that you want to capture cpu, but for some reason, only half of your host get that | 16:48 |
| jd___ | dhellmann: I hope so :) | 16:48 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: I think he meant frequency | 16:48 |
| dhellmann | ah | 16:49 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, how would that happen? the ops configuration management tool should detect that a config is out of date and fix it, no? | 16:49 |
| nijaba | so my proposal is: agent are configured through trditinal means, butagent get meter config from the central collector | 16:50 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: in theory, yes, but practice has shown this to not always be so true | 16:50 |
| dachary | very much in a same way a mysql database has communication with its slave for internal purposes, event when it's configured at install time using puppet | 16:51 |
| nijaba | and since this causes a real data consistency issue, this is why I am a bit pushy here | 16:51 |
| dachary | dhellmann: I would not trust puppet or chef to handle every use case | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | dachary, OK. Well, I trust my ops team to figure out how to make that work, but let's assume we need to have this feature for now and discuss what it might look like. | 16:52 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: ask your ops if they trust puppet to set up a drbd cluster... | 16:52 |
| dhellmann | The proposed API seemed more complicated than necessary. | 16:52 |
| dhellmann | we use chef, but OK :-) | 16:52 |
| dachary | nijaba: another good example, yes. | 16:53 |
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| nijaba | dhellmann: I am very open to changes | 16:53 |
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| dhellmann | I propose a 2 step system. | 16:53 |
| dhellmann | On startup, the agent "checks in" with the collector to retrieve its configuration | 16:53 |
| dhellmann | At any other time, when the configuration is changed, the collector sends the new configuration to the agent. The agent discards its existing configuration and replaces it with the new settings. | 16:54 |
| dachary | warning : 6 minutes left ;-) | 16:54 |
| dhellmann | we probably need to move this discussion back to the list, then | 16:54 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: do we use a cast in that case, or directed message (which implies maintaining a list of gents?) | 16:54 |
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| nijaba | s/gents/agents/ | 16:55 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, cast (assuming all agents are configured the same way) | 16:55 |
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| dachary | I propose we move to a vote on the principle and move the discussion on the implementation to the list. | 16:55 |
| dhellmann | ok | 16:55 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: that sounds good. Do you want me to rework my proposal, or do you want to have a stab at it? | 16:55 |
| dhellmann | nijaba, I don't expect to use this feature so maybe you should do it? :-) | 16:55 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: k, fair enough | 16:56 |
| dhellmann | dachary, we should also discuss/vote on whether this is a Folsom feature or a G feature | 16:56 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: time box: feature which don't make it for a release are pushed to the next one.... | 16:57 |
| dachary | dhellmann: is there a blocker for it to be a Folsom if someone works on it ? | 16:57 |
| dachary | ah | 16:57 |
| dachary | timebox of course ;-) | 16:57 |
| dhellmann | I wouldn't block someone else from working on it, but I don't think it should have a high priority given all of the other things we have to do for Folsom | 16:58 |
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| dachary | makes perfect sense to me | 16:58 |
| dhellmann | I would rather see people working on pollsters and notification collection | 16:58 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: here you find me in agreement | 16:58 |
| dachary | who is in agreement to the proposal that agent are configured through traditional means, but agent get meter config from the central collector ? | 16:58 |
| * nijaba really hopes to be able to put some effort where is mouth is | 16:59 | |
| dachary | nijaba: you'll have to ;-) | 16:59 |
| nijaba | +1 | 16:59 |
| dachary | +1 | 16:59 |
| dhellmann | -1 | 16:59 |
| jd___ | 0 | 16:59 |
| dachary | #agreed agent are configured through traditional means, but agent get meter config from the central collector ? | 17:00 |
| dachary | nijaba: you take action ? | 17:00 |
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| nijaba | yes, my action is to rework my proposal on the basis of what was proposed by dhellmann | 17:00 |
| dachary | nijaba: dash action please ;-) | 17:00 |
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| nijaba | #action nijaba to rework meter configuration proposal on the basis of discussion | 17:01 |
| jd___ | end time guys | 17:01 |
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| dachary | yes | 17:01 |
| nijaba | thanks * | 17:01 |
| jd___ | I can hear dhellmann' stomach | 17:01 |
| dachary | tnaks | 17:01 |
| jd___ | #endmeeting | 17:01 |
| dhellmann | please go look at the open code reviews! | 17:01 |
| nijaba | tnaks too | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meeting channel. See http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings for schedule and http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/ for meeting logs" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Jun 7 17:01:52 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-07-16.01.html | 17:01 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-07-16.01.txt | 17:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-07-16.01.log.html | 17:01 |
| dhellmann | and thanks, everyone | 17:02 |
| nijaba | dhellmann: on my way! | 17:02 |
| dachary | dhellmann: I'm on it | 17:02 |
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| davidkranz | I don't see Jay or Daryl in openstack-meeting | 17:07 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | Hey guys. Daryl had a product emergency and could not attend and Jay is out this week | 17:07 |
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| davidkranz | Hmm. I got an email from Jay about 1/2 hour ago. | 17:08 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I have the overall agenda that Daryl was planning if we want to move forward | 17:08 |
| davidkranz | Let's see what we can cover. | 17:08 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | cool | 17:08 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | First topic from Daryl's agenda was Status of Swift tests | 17:09 |
| Ravikumar_hp | i am interested in it | 17:09 |
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| JoseSwiftQE | Ah yes. I submitted my changes on the 1st. They're up for review now | 17:09 |
| JoseSwiftQE | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/7465/ | 17:09 |
| Ravikumar_hp | JoseSwiftQE: thanks | 17:09 |
| davidkranz | JoseSwiftQE: Do the tests skip if there is no swift endpoint? | 17:10 |
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| JoseSwiftQE | They're not decorated as such, and I didn't test to see if it happens automagically. | 17:10 |
| Ravikumar_hp | JoseSwiftQE: i think we can do all enhancements once basic tests are in place | 17:11 |
| davidkranz | JoseSwiftQE: You couldl do the same thing Jay did recently with the Quantum network tests | 17:11 |
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| JoseSwiftQE | https://github.com/openstack/tempest/blob/master/tempest/tests/network/base.py | 17:14 |
| JoseSwiftQE | that right? | 17:14 |
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| davidkranz | JoseSwiftQE: Yes. | 17:15 |
| davidkranz | Since Daryl has reviewed the swift stuff I guess he should give final approval. | 17:15 |
| JoseSwiftQE | Sure. | 17:16 |
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| Sam_swift_Racksp | Seems like the plan. It makes sense to let Daryl have the final approval, get the tests in, then submit a patch to make the final upgrade. These tests have been waiting a long time to get checked in. :-) | 17:17 |
| JoseSwiftQE | I'd like to get all the base stuff in first...exactly that ^^ :D | 17:17 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: I agree, but am not sure what the hold up was. | 17:17 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | OK. So next topic was Status of Parallelization modifications but that was for Daryl so let's skip to outstanding code reviews | 17:17 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'm not sure either, I'll follow up with Daryl after the meeting | 17:18 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | topic: Outstanding code reviews | 17:18 |
| davidkranz | Jay said yesterday he was going to run the diablo fixes and approve them. | 17:18 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | Good deal. | 17:19 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | It looks like there are 15 outstanding code reviews | 17:19 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/tempest,n,z | 17:19 |
| davidkranz | I think only a few of them are actually waiting for a new review. | 17:20 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | correc | 17:20 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | correct | 17:20 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | 6 are waiting a new review | 17:20 |
| davidkranz | My draft is more waiting for a discussion which I guess is not going to happen today. | 17:21 |
| davidkranz | Unless any of you have any opinion to express about that issue. | 17:21 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I have some thoughts on it as well for sure but not sure if we should wait for Daryl and/or Jay to be in the meeting with us. :-) | 17:21 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | though I | 17:22 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | though I'm happy to discuss if you want | 17:22 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I agree that resource management should be taken care of and automated so as not to be up to the test writer to explicitly deal with it. I just feel that it should be in a BaseTestClass as has been proposed/used so far | 17:23 |
| davidkranz | OK, I hear that people don't want resource collection on the rest client but that is the only place it can go right now that doesn't force the user to write extra boilerplate code as far as I can see. | 17:23 |
| davidkranz | What is the alternative? | 17:23 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I haven't reviewed the code fully yet, however, in a general concept I have used in the past, I have used a manager of sorts (which I think Jay proposed something similar not long ago) to abstract between the test case itself and the actual client | 17:26 |
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| davidkranz | I made a comment in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8193/ that we could introduce a ResourceTracker class that the various clients could inherit. | 17:26 |
| davidkranz | That would be kind of like a manager as you describe. | 17:27 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | Let me take a look, just a sec | 17:27 |
| davidkranz | The second to last comment. | 17:28 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | that makes some sense to me (the second to the last comment) I guess my real issue is with the client owning the cleanup logic, I.E. what if the test needs to implicitly leave a resource around (though I guess that can be a slippery slope as well) | 17:30 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | some kind of tracker/observer that was there but the ultimate decision of what to delete/free remained in the base test case or test runner class | 17:31 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: That is what the proposal does. It is up to the test class to call the cleanup and it can manually free resources as well. | 17:31 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | the way I've usually built a lot of frameworks is kinda TestRunner/Controller --> TestCase --> Facade --> Client --> Connector --> AUT | 17:31 |
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| JoseSwiftQE | There's precedent for that actually. Swift Access log delivery requires things to stick around for a bit. | 17:32 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | davidkranz: aha! I'll keep this and read it more closely after the meeting | 17:32 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | it could be we are talking about the same thing but I'm playing some catch up. :-) | 17:32 |
| JoseSwiftQE | So, if things where deleted automatically, access log would never be delivered. | 17:32 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | in that TestRunner/Controller --> TestCase --> Facade --> Client --> Connector --> AUT model the Test Case owns the ultimate decision on pass/fail, clean-up, etc... but the default behavior of a test case is to always clean up and fail on any unexpected error/exception | 17:33 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: Sure. Right now the free is in the tearDown and the test would have to override but I would be happy to change that. | 17:33 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: I meant the BaseTest tearDown. | 17:34 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: In that case I think it is already doing exactly what you are suggesting. | 17:34 |
| davidkranz | Let's see what Jay and Daryl have to say about my comment. I think I was not clear enough at the beginning about why the RestClient needed to be involved at all. | 17:35 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | hmmm.. I think you are right in talking with you. Let me run this one by Daryl and yes I'm thinking you and I are likely on the same page David | 17:36 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'll follow up on this one as well with Daryl. | 17:37 |
| davidkranz | JoseSwiftQE: It may be that swift tests would specify a different behavior. | 17:37 |
| davidkranz | JoseSwiftQE: Or turn off resource tracking if that makes sense. | 17:37 |
| JoseSwiftQE | Yeah, that sounds good. I can live with it so long as it's overridable for edgecases like mine. | 17:37 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | which the swift test could do if it over-rides the cleanup method in BaseTestCase | 17:37 |
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| Sam_swift_Racksp | Might be a good thing to have the resource tracking enabled by default but turned off with a config or passed bool as well. That way we give ultimate control to the test case but without implicit action the resources are automatically tracked and scrubbed. | 17:38 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | :-) | 17:38 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I | 17:38 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'll stop fat fingering my enter button. :-D | 17:38 |
| davidkranz | Sounds good. | 17:38 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'll make some comments on your page David. | 17:39 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: Thanks. | 17:39 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | No worries. I used Eclipse/PyDev by the way too. :-) | 17:39 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | Ok. So next topic | 17:40 |
| davidkranz | Does any one have comments about the issue of how many argument variants a Tempest test should have? | 17:40 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'm sorry, not sure about that one. Is there a link I could play catch up on? | 17:40 |
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| davidkranz | Just my comments in this bug ticket https://bugs.launchpad.net/tempest/+bug/1010014 | 17:41 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1010014 in tempest "Test Cases: Negative test cases for Server Metadata" [Undecided,In progress] | 17:41 |
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| Sam_swift_Racksp | hmmm...That one is a big can of worms in one sense, however, I agree that we should have the break between what a unit test does and what a test case does | 17:46 |
| davidkranz | I fully understand the desire to have a set of tests that can be pointed at a real deployment and provide "acceptence" but we need to decide how much we are going to trust unit tests as a surrogate for that. | 17:46 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | totally agree with you. :-) | 17:46 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | not sure what the plan is for that though becuase I have shot myself in the foot in the past at other companies when I got to trust the unit tests too much. :-) | 17:46 |
| Ravikumar_hp | davidkranz: agree. we will linit those boundaty tests | 17:47 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: Yes. In an ideal world the specification of test cases for an API would be more abstract and both unit and functional tests could be generated. | 17:47 |
| davidkranz | I think that is a bit much to chew off now. | 17:48 |
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| davidkranz | It is really a matter of architectural knowlege and judgement that really the architects of the AUT know best. | 17:50 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | agree. This might be a much larger discussion, though we do need to make a constant vigil (at the risk of sounding dramatic) that the tests we add are adding value at each inclusion | 17:50 |
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| davidkranz | For now I just think our time would be better spent on stressing the system and doing things that really are useless for unit tests. | 17:51 |
| davidkranz | Like creating a stress test for the API rather than adding more argument combinations. | 17:51 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | Agreed. We really should be looking at user scenario's and more real world stress situations than nit-picking every parameter path. :-) | 17:52 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: It is pretty easy to add new cases to the tempest/stress tests and I would be happy to help with any issues if some one tried to do this. | 17:52 |
| davidkranz | Do we want to discuss the last issue which was tempest execution time? | 17:54 |
| davidkranz | If not, I guess we can close the meeting. | 17:58 |
| Ravikumar_hp | davidkranz: tempest tests are growing | 17:58 |
| JoseSwiftQE | We probably won't be able to speak to that w/o Daryl at least. | 17:58 |
| davidkranz | Ravikumar_hp: I know. That is why I have been flaming about issues surrounding that! | 17:59 |
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| Sam_swift_Racksp | I agree with Jose. We should wait for Daryl on that one. | 17:59 |
| davidkranz | Me too. | 17:59 |
| Ravikumar_hp | ok. | 17:59 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | He does have a few ideas and I know he has some strong feelings in general | 17:59 |
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| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: Perhaps he can send an email summarizing his feelings and perhaps a proposal to move forward. | 18:00 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | Cool. I'll take that as an action item to speak with Daryl. | 18:01 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | so as a recap: | 18:01 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'm going to follow up with Daryl to get the swift tests approved/integrated | 18:01 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | after swift tests are aprovved, Jose is going to make some minor updates ot the base tests for swift | 18:01 |
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| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'm going to follow up with some comments on the draft of resource management from David summarizing our discussion here | 18:02 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | and I'm going to follow up with Daryl requesting an email to the group on tempest execution time | 18:03 |
| davidkranz | Thanks, Sam. | 18:03 |
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| davidkranz | Unfortunately no one remembered to start the meeting so there won't be a stand-alone log. | 18:04 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | no worries David. After talking I think you and I are on the same page (or at least close enough) on the whole resource management issue and I believe Daryl is also really thinking the same thing, we were just talking about it in three different ways. :-) | 18:04 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | ack! Yes. I need to get a list of the IRC commands needed. :-) | 18:04 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: I forgot about http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot | 18:04 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | I'll send a transcript to Daryl in an email and he can get it in the right place hopefully. :-) | 18:05 |
| davidkranz | Sam_swift_Racksp: Great. See y'all next week. | 18:05 |
| Sam_swift_Racksp | Ah. Perfect. Thanks David. I'll be better prepared next time. :-) See everyone next week! | 18:05 |
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