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| bcwaldon | I apologize to anybody here for the nova-api team meeting. I did say 20:00 UTC in the initial email but it was added for 21:00 UTC to the official calendar | 20:15 |
|---|---|---|
| bcwaldon | I'm going to wait until 21:00 to start | 20:15 |
| * heckj lurks until time | 20:16 | |
| bcwaldon | heckj: sorry! | 20:17 |
| heckj | no worries, I can hang - this is just sitting mostly in the background | 20:17 |
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| bcwaldon | hello everybody! | 21:01 |
| jorgew | hey | 21:01 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: I want to make sure you're here before we start up | 21:01 |
| annegentle | oh sure I'm here | 21:02 |
| bcwaldon | excellent | 21:02 |
| annegentle | o/ | 21:02 |
| bcwaldon | not sure if vishy is | 21:02 |
| bcwaldon | doesn't need to be, but he said he would! | 21:02 |
| bcwaldon | #startmeeting | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Dec 9 21:02:46 2011 UTC. The chair is bcwaldon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. | 21:02 |
| bcwaldon | well let's get started anyways | 21:02 |
| bcwaldon | #topic OpenStack Compute API versioning and extensions | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Compute API versioning and extensions" | 21:03 | |
| bcwaldon | so I *thought* I had a good idea of where we want to go with this, but Mr. Williams had to go and screw it all up ;) | 21:03 |
| jorgew | ..actually it's Dr. Williams :-) | 21:03 |
| jorgew | lol, sorry man | 21:03 |
| bcwaldon | no worries! | 21:04 |
| bcwaldon | so I'm going to spend some time this weekend and come up with a draft versioning proposal for OpenStack Compute | 21:04 |
| bcwaldon | Looking to collaborate with jorgew early next week on that | 21:04 |
| jorgew | That sounds good…I'm looking forward to it | 21:05 |
| bcwaldon | #action bcwaldon to write up versioning proposal | 21:05 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: got a high-level overview for that proposal? | 21:05 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: as if I'm a kindergartner? :) | 21:05 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: something along the lines of what mnot proposed a month or so back on the ML | 21:05 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: ok, will look for the link for the notes | 21:05 |
| bcwaldon | At a super hight level, versioning our compute api solely by mimetypes | 21:06 |
| bcwaldon | and treating each resource somewhat individually w.r.t. versioning | 21:06 |
| bcwaldon | it's hard to explain... | 21:06 |
| annegentle | s'ok | 21:07 |
| bcwaldon | so I was hoping for some discussion here | 21:07 |
| bcwaldon | but if its just the three of us... | 21:07 |
| * bcwaldon waits to see if anyone is lurking | 21:07 | |
| annegentle | heckj: around? | 21:07 |
| jorgew | heck:? | 21:07 |
| bcwaldon | well, I guess we'll move on and defer this discussion to the ML next week | 21:08 |
| jorgew | sounds good. | 21:08 |
| bcwaldon | so annegentle, do you want to discuss extension docs? | 21:08 |
| bcwaldon | #topic Extension Documentation | 21:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Extension Documentation" | 21:08 | |
| annegentle | sure | 21:09 |
| jorgew | BTW, anne thanks for the comments on the list…haven't had a chance to reply but I'm with you on most/all points | 21:09 |
| annegentle | I think I rounded up my thoughts in a note to the mailing list | 21:09 |
| bcwaldon | ok, anything you want to bring up in particular? Feel free to say no :) | 21:10 |
| annegentle | just a sec... | 21:10 |
| annegentle | was going to say, Jorge has agreed to most all the items | 21:10 |
| annegentle | some of it we have to have more input on | 21:10 |
| annegentle | I went to the OpenStack-Austin meetup last night and then emailed it to a few folks from there | 21:11 |
| annegentle | didn't get in person feedback then but solicited more input | 21:11 |
| annegentle | really what heckj brought up about related-ness to the API site is probably the biggest question out there now | 21:11 |
| jorgew | Right. | 21:12 |
| annegentle | and my other "concern" is about how it's like pulling teeth to get the stuff written. :) | 21:12 |
| jorgew | I think that we have a need for user guides | 21:12 |
| jorgew | …and that's not what's out there | 21:12 |
| jorgew | this is just documenting how each extension changes the API | 21:12 |
| jorgew | sorta like a spec. | 21:12 |
| annegentle | jorgew: right, so the two issues are related, the authoring side and the display side | 21:12 |
| bcwaldon | I would really like to block reviews that add extensions w/o some level of documentation | 21:13 |
| annegentle | jorgew: or we just call them unrelated and I recruit both types of content | 21:13 |
| jorgew | What's the issue with the authoring side, cus honestly think things are getting better in that dept | 21:13 |
| bcwaldon | if we can make it easy for people to provide that documentaiton, I think its 100% doable | 21:13 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: that's a good point too, the governance of both the extension and their docs needs defining | 21:13 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: for sure. | 21:13 |
| jorgew | Right I agree. | 21:13 |
| bcwaldon | so that might just be something I need to enforce within Nova | 21:14 |
| jorgew | I think if we give people more of an incentive to write docs will get written | 21:14 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: can you send me the details of what exactly you want from extension authors? | 21:14 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: and finding a small team of enforcers so there's distribution of work | 21:14 |
| jorgew | annegentle: right | 21:15 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: so I've got a contribution coming in January from a writer at HP | 21:15 |
| annegentle | he basically wrote dev-guide style docs for floating ups, etc | 21:15 |
| annegentle | IPs that is | 21:15 |
| annegentle | so it's more instructive for api users than instructive to a reader to revise the spec | 21:15 |
| annegentle | we've had to reuse specs as dev guides | 21:16 |
| annegentle | but really it is time to create real dev guides | 21:16 |
| annegentle | I think we're gathering some resources to do so - HP needs it for sure too | 21:16 |
| annegentle | and Rackspace is hiring | 21:16 |
| bcwaldon | that's awesome | 21:16 |
| jorgew | annegentle: I agree, we need more dev guides | 21:16 |
| bcwaldon | A lack of resources is probably the biggest pain point right now | 21:16 |
| annegentle | so it's a matter of matching up the doc with the audience | 21:16 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: what I'm hoping is we'll get an influx in January, and I'd like to be able to tell people we're being strategic about placement | 21:17 |
| jorgew | annegentle: But we also need info on how an extension modifies a spec. Their not mutually exclusive | 21:17 |
| annegentle | jorgew: absolutely, both are needed | 21:17 |
| bcwaldon | ok, so the developer himself is probably the main consumer of any specific extension doc | 21:17 |
| annegentle | I just can't prioritize spec doc over user docs :) | 21:17 |
| annegentle | as far as resource planning | 21:17 |
| jorgew | Well we need both | 21:18 |
| jorgew | and usually the spec comes first … it informs the user doc | 21:18 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: maybe this is something we need to talk about in the meeting on monday | 21:18 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: I've just come up with a whole bunch of questions I want to ask :) | 21:18 |
| jorgew | it would suck to write user docs while a spec is in flux | 21:18 |
| annegentle | yeah priorities are certainly worth prioritizing | 21:18 |
| annegentle | er, discussing | 21:19 |
| annegentle | I think both are needed by Esse | 21:19 |
| jorgew | :-) | 21:19 |
| bcwaldon | So since we're in a 'nova-api' meeting, what would you say to the members of this team | 21:19 |
| annegentle | Essex | 21:19 |
| bcwaldon | Right now I'd say the members are mainly developers | 21:19 |
| annegentle | this team could give input on both sites - Extension and API - that'll help lay out tasks | 21:19 |
| annegentle | basically this team can review | 21:20 |
| annegentle | yeah? I'm just looking for ways to lay out the work | 21:20 |
| bcwaldon | right, and wouldn't the members of this team be the ones writing the extensions themselves? | 21:20 |
| bcwaldon | assuming this team has a larger dev representation | 21:20 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: yep and the docs to go with it and reviewing each other's stuff | 21:21 |
| bcwaldon | right, so every aspect of extensions are basically contained within this team | 21:21 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: cool | 21:21 |
| bcwaldon | would I be correct in saying that if we had a wiki on how to write an extension, that would help the devs help you? | 21:21 |
| * heckj reads scroll back really quickly | 21:22 | |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: yes and also describing the method that an extension becomes core | 21:22 |
| annegentle | method/process/governance? Not sure what it really is. | 21:22 |
| bcwaldon | it could cover the technical side, obviously, but then offering resources for documentation that can be handed off to the docs team when complete | 21:22 |
| annegentle | hi heckj! | 21:22 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: have you taken a look at the templates I put together? From a spec perspective, I think most of what we need can be gathered from there. | 21:22 |
| heckj | Hi! Sorry - had to run out just before this started. Just landed | 21:22 |
| bcwaldon | jorgew: I haven't had a change to (not other than what Anne showed me) | 21:22 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: I don't really see a handoff necessarily, since there aren't resources. | 21:22 |
| bcwaldon | by 'resource' I meant templates | 21:23 |
| bcwaldon | but yes, I guess but handoff I mean mergeprop | 21:23 |
| bcwaldon | by* | 21:23 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: links at the bottom of the extensions page | 21:23 |
| bcwaldon | jorgew: where *is* that extensions page | 21:23 |
| bcwaldon | jorgew: or are you talking about the one you sent to me to review | 21:24 |
| bcwaldon | I'm so lost | 21:24 |
| jorgew | http://docs.rackspace.com/openstack-extensions/ | 21:24 |
| heckj | Sorry - I'm not tracking. What's the topic? | 21:24 |
| heckj | Ah! | 21:24 |
| jorgew | heckj: extension and documentation | 21:24 |
| annegentle | #link http://docs.rackspace.com/openstack-extensions/ | 21:25 |
| heckj | jorgew: I like the implementation of what you're doing there, but the idea is flawed from a usability perspective | 21:25 |
| heckj | You have to know to read the main docs and all the extensions | 21:25 |
| jorgew | heckj: this isn't user docs, it's specs | 21:25 |
| heckj | just to find what you're trying to do, or to see if you even CAN do it | 21:25 |
| jorgew | heckj: we were just talking about how we need both docs and specs | 21:26 |
| heckj | could you quickly summarize what a "spec" is for me then? | 21:26 |
| jorgew | or rather guides and specs | 21:26 |
| bcwaldon | jorgew: ok, why is that docs site on 'rackspace.com'? Why not openstack.org? | 21:26 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: at the time the team designed it, extensions we weren't certain extensions were accepted by the PPB | 21:27 |
| jorgew | heckj: from an extensions prespective it defines specifically how the extension has changed the spec…to the point that an implementor can modify an implementation | 21:27 |
| heckj | jorgew: because when I look it at, I thought it was additional documentation on the API | 21:27 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: ok, any plan on migrating to openstack.org? | 21:27 |
| jorgew | heckj: Yea I understand the confusion. In the past our user guides and our specs were the same document. That needs to change | 21:27 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: sure, we could do that if the community and PPB believe it to be maintainable and useful, it's really in a review stage now | 21:28 |
| jorgew | heckj: so we should rename the title | 21:28 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: ok, just curious :) | 21:28 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: yeah it's a good question | 21:28 |
| heckj | so the goal of the spec - an example of such being http://docs.rackspace.com/openstack-extensions/compute/os-bs/content/ch02s03.html, is that this is place where someone implementing the spec would go to read on what should be implemented? | 21:28 |
| jorgew | heckj: or a user that wants to know exactly how the spec has changed | 21:29 |
| heckj | So you want to keep a living history of how the API has changed over time with a series of these specs available for someone to read and review? | 21:29 |
| jorgew | heckj: Well, not all extension are going to be available in all deployments. | 21:30 |
| jorgew | heckj: Take a look at http://docs.rackspace.com/openstack-extensions/apix-intro/content/Overview.html | 21:31 |
| jorgew | for an overveiw of extension mechanism | 21:31 |
| annegentle | heckj: Rackspace and HP have to provide docs that include what extensions they have in their deployment | 21:31 |
| annegentle | heckj: and others who have public or private OpenStack clouds | 21:31 |
| jorgew | heckj: what's actually in a deployment is a combination of the core and 0 or more extensions | 21:31 |
| bcwaldon | Real quick guys, I think we're done with the nova-api meeting. I'm going to end it if nobody else has anything related | 21:32 |
| bcwaldon | keep this discussion going though :) | 21:32 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: oh I did want to hear about the versioning | 21:32 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: are we still doing a 1.1 > 2.0 rename | 21:32 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: and can extensions be brought in at all? | 21:33 |
| annegentle | you may have answered this already but thought others could benefit from my confusion being clarified | 21:33 |
| bcwaldon | #topic v1.1 -> v2 rename | 21:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "v1.1 -> v2 rename" | 21:33 | |
| bcwaldon | ok, so I'm fine doing a true rename, but I think it's easier to not do it | 21:33 |
| annegentle | to rephrase my last question, can extensions be brought to core in the essex time frame | 21:33 |
| bcwaldon | hold on | 21:33 |
| heckj | annegentle: ++ | 21:34 |
| bcwaldon | jorgew: do you see any problems with an actual rename? | 21:34 |
| jorgew | annegentle: I don't think it's possible to move all of those extension to core. | 21:34 |
| heckj | why not? | 21:34 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: I'm okay with the rename. | 21:34 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: what were your concerns with a rename | 21:34 |
| jorgew | heckj: because core functionality is stuff that you can expect in all deployments | 21:34 |
| annegentle | re: extensions moving to core, Just wondering if any extensions would move how many, what timeframe, etc. It affects user doc. | 21:35 |
| heckj | yes - and there's a LOT in the extensions that can or should be in every reasonable deployment | 21:35 |
| annegentle | re: rename, the more I look at how many files are affected and the work needed, I'm concerned about how to get a rename done. | 21:35 |
| jorgew | heckj: That's great, we should work towards promoting those features. | 21:35 |
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| bcwaldon | annegentle: yes, that's what I'm concerned about too | 21:35 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: what ramifications are there if we don't rename anything and just release the next set of docs with a big '3' on it? | 21:36 |
| annegentle | yes I agree with heckj many of the nova api ext are just expected | 21:36 |
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| annegentle | bcwaldon: to me, none, but I'm new to this, haven't done a deployment, etc. | 21:36 |
| bcwaldon | as for moving extensions in, we essentially have to design them into our next iteration of the api | 21:36 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: I'm also okay with leaving the API name 1.1 :-) Really how big the impact will be depends on what our versioning scheme is. can we wait until that gets settled first before we decide | 21:36 |
| bcwaldon | jorgew: yeah, that's what i'm leaning towards | 21:37 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: let's table the rename discussion until we have a greater consensus on versioning | 21:37 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: Right, we need a major version change to bring an extension in | 21:37 |
| jorgew | to core | 21:37 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: sure, sounds good | 21:37 |
| heckj | bcwaldon: seems reasonable | 21:37 |
| bcwaldon | #topic Extension Promotion path | 21:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Extension Promotion path" | 21:37 | |
| bcwaldon | yeah, so an extension should live in the context of a single major version | 21:38 |
| bcwaldon | this extension extends version 2 | 21:38 |
| bcwaldon | the need for that extension may go away in version 3 | 21:38 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: that's true | 21:39 |
| jorgew | bcwaldon: but the extension may stick arround version 3 as well | 21:39 |
| bcwaldon | sure, but it shouldn't be assumed to | 21:39 |
| bcwaldon | does that make sense to everybody? | 21:39 |
| jorgew | right. That's why extension are detectable… you dont assume that they are there you can detectem with /extension | 21:39 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: can you walk through it with Floating IPs for example? | 21:40 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: sure | 21:40 |
| bcwaldon | so in v2 right now, we have a floating ips extension that adds 2 actions to /servers | 21:40 |
| bcwaldon | when we design v3, let's assume we decide to add it as a core feature | 21:41 |
| bcwaldon | when we release the v3 spec, floating ips will already have been accounted for, so there is no extension necessary | 21:41 |
| bcwaldon | if we decide *not* to include floating ips in v3, a new extension will have to be added | 21:42 |
| bcwaldon | the reason there is that the api design may change in such a way that the old v2 extension doesn't make sense | 21:42 |
| annegentle | so dev does work in /nova to move floating IP functionality from the contrib dir, it gets reviewed and in to trunk. | 21:42 |
| bcwaldon | OR, that extension may *not* need to change if we don't make any breaking changes in the part of the spec that it extends | 21:42 |
| bcwaldon | yes | 21:42 |
| annegentle | then docs get added to indicate this is in core? | 21:43 |
| bcwaldon | the v2 extension doc can hang around | 21:43 |
| bcwaldon | and the v3 core spec will have the floating ips in it | 21:43 |
| annegentle | ok | 21:44 |
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| bcwaldon | annegentle: did you have anything else you wanted to discuss? | 21:45 |
| heckj | bcwaldon: process makes sense, thanks | 21:45 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: nope, thanks it's very helpful for my planning purposes | 21:45 |
| bcwaldon | jorgew: anything to add? | 21:45 |
| jorgew | no I think that makes sense | 21:46 |
| bcwaldon | ok, any other topics of discussion? | 21:46 |
| bcwaldon | alright, thanks for attending! | 21:47 |
| bcwaldon | #endmeeting | 21:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/" | 21:47 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Dec 9 21:47:11 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:47 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-12-09-21.02.html | 21:47 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-12-09-21.02.txt | 21:47 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-12-09-21.02.log.html | 21:47 |
| jorgew | thanks waldon | 21:47 |
| bcwaldon | yeah, no problem | 21:47 |
| annegentle | thanks for answering all my Qs guys! | 21:47 |
| bcwaldon | annegentle: I think theres more to talk about on monday at your docs meeting | 21:47 |
| annegentle | bcwaldon: sure, sounds good | 21:47 |
| bcwaldon | alright, I'm out. Have a good weekend you guys! | 21:47 |
| heckj | Thanks for coordinating the mtg brian! | 21:48 |
| jorgew | yea c ya guifs | 21:48 |
| jorgew | *guys | 21:48 |
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