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| RichiH | banzai | 19:32 |
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| * ttx waves | 20:58 | |
| dendrobates | o/ | 20:58 |
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| * creiht bows | 20:58 | |
| soren | o/ | 20:59 |
| RichiH | *ding* | 21:00 |
| dabo | o/ | 21:00 |
| ttx | soren: your talk recruited several new IRC members | 21:00 |
| ttx | inluding one that does meeting clock. | 21:00 |
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| ttx | ok then, let's get started | 21:00 |
| ttx | #startmeeting | 21:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 8 21:00:54 2011 UTC. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. | 21:00 |
| ttx | Welcome to the first Cactus weekly OpenStack team meeting... | 21:01 |
| soren | ttx: I deliver. | 21:01 |
| ttx | Today's agenda is at: | 21:01 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | 21:01 |
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| ttx | No last-minute addition apparently | 21:01 |
| ttx | No actions from last week meeting | 21:01 |
| ttx | #topic Nova Bexar post release issues | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova Bexar post release issues" | 21:02 | |
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| ttx | We realized after release that the tarballs have (always) been missing some elements. | 21:02 |
| ttx | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=bexar-post-release | 21:02 |
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| ttx | The released tarball is most notably missing some extra files and directories, and the translated strings. | 21:02 |
| ttx | We should release a new tarball including the missing elements. | 21:02 |
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| soren | I just want to be sure that we only have to that once. | 21:03 |
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| dendrobates | how can you be sure? | 21:04 |
| soren | Once is bad enough. If there's something people want in the tarball, it would be totally awesome if they would check that it was actually there. Just once. Ever. | 21:04 |
| ttx | Option A is to release a new tarball (nova-2011.1-full.tar.gz) on https://launchpad.net/nova/+milestone/2011.1 | 21:04 |
| ttx | Option B is to create a new milestone (2011.1.1) and release nova-2011.1.1.tar.gz there | 21:04 |
| ttx | Thoughts ? | 21:04 |
| ttx | Advantage of option A is that it makes it clear it's just missing files that were added, nothing else changed. Advantage of option B is that it clearly acknowledges the tarball fumble and encourages people to switch to the complete one. | 21:04 |
| ttx | dendrobates: you're for option B, right | 21:04 |
| ttx | Anyone from Nova core with an opinion on this ? | 21:04 |
| soren | It's not that hard. Clearly. It was noticed afterwards. | 21:04 |
| dendrobates | tyes | 21:05 |
| dendrobates | yes | 21:05 |
| ttx | I've been working on the missing files, jaypipes is working on the missing translations | 21:05 |
| RichiH | my outsider's view is that B is better as it will make people realize something changed | 21:05 |
| dendrobates | that is the most honest and least confusing thing to do, IMO | 21:05 |
| ttx | We should also make sure that doesn't happen again. I mistakenly thought that our tarball generation included all files, and that translations were automatically merged, so I admit not having double-checked that. | 21:05 |
| dabo | B seems much cleaner to me | 21:05 |
| soren | I'm also in favour of B. | 21:05 |
| RichiH | soren: the process creating the tarball could simply check against a file list | 21:05 |
| ttx | When we add a new file we need to make sure it's properly covered in setup.py or MANIFEST.in if needed. | 21:05 |
| ttx | soren: you wanted to add a test to catch differences between branch and tarball ? | 21:06 |
| soren | ttx: Yeah. | 21:06 |
| soren | it's mostly done. | 21:06 |
| dendrobates | to be fair, ttx was very ill on release, and I hit my head and ended up in the hospital. Last release I checked the file and the manifest | 21:06 |
| ttx | ok, option B it is, then | 21:06 |
| soren | It'll shout and scream until someone fixes it or acknowledges the change. | 21:06 |
| dendrobates | soren: :) | 21:06 |
| ttx | dendrobates: I wouldn't have checked that even if I was at 100% :) | 21:06 |
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| soren | RichiH: It doesn't help if noone bothers to make sure said file list is complete. The manifest basically is this file list. | 21:07 |
| dendrobates | ttx: I would have gone through it with you. | 21:07 |
| ttx | I wrongly assumed that the tarball generation was using bzr export | 21:07 |
| ttx | and not python setup.py sdist | 21:07 |
| diegoparrilla | A suggestion from an outsider: once a tarball is released any change can make confusion. It's better to create a 'maintenance' release | 21:07 |
| creiht | Why is it that big of a deal to just make a bugfix release? | 21:07 |
| dendrobates | creiht: I think that is the decision | 21:08 |
| ttx | creiht: not a big deal. Option B it is | 21:08 |
| ttx | moving on | 21:08 |
| creiht | lol | 21:08 |
| dendrobates | creiht: and I don;t know why some resist it | 21:08 |
| * ttx shuts up now :) | 21:08 | |
| ttx | #topic Current release stage: Development | 21:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Current release stage: Development" | 21:08 | |
| ttx | Welcome to Cactus ! You can find the release schedule at: | 21:08 |
| diegoparrilla | Option B from my perspective | 21:08 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/CactusReleaseSchedule | 21:08 |
| ttx | This is a short cycle with 7 weeks in the merge window. | 21:08 |
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| ttx | (no design summit) | 21:09 |
| ttx | Feel free to propose any branch for merging until BranchMergeProposalFreeze, currently set to March 17. | 21:09 |
| ttx | Remember the sooner branches are proposed, the better. | 21:09 |
| dendrobates | any major changes should be proposed in the first 4 weeks | 21:09 |
| soren | Also remember that proposing a branch by MArch 17 doesn't mean it'll get merged. It means it'll get reviewed. | 21:09 |
| ewanmellor | We've still got blueprints pending approval. What's the status of those? | 21:10 |
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| ttx | ewanmellor: coming to it | 21:10 |
| ttx | #topic Cactus targets | 21:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cactus targets" | 21:10 | |
| * ttx passes the mike to dendrobates | 21:10 | |
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| dendrobates | So... | 21:11 |
| dendrobates | ttx and I were suposed to review and approve all blueprints last week | 21:11 |
| ttx | ... in Brussels | 21:11 |
| dendrobates | but illness and injury prevented that. | 21:11 |
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| dendrobates | so we started going through them today. | 21:11 |
| dendrobates | we are first accepting them to the cactus release and then we will review the specs | 21:12 |
| vishy | do we have any plan for backporting fixes? | 21:12 |
| ttx | vishy: to Bexar ? | 21:12 |
| dendrobates | do not let spec approval delay your coding if your bp has been accepted | 21:12 |
| dendrobates | vishy: we will be discussing that in the POC meeting | 21:13 |
| devcamcar | i'm confused on whose job it is to approve blueprints | 21:13 |
| ewanmellor | dendrobates: are you distinguishing between approval of the blueprint and approval of the spec? | 21:13 |
| creiht | Unfortunately there are no letters between B and C, so there can't be an intermediate release >:) | 21:13 |
| devcamcar | ttx is a release manager, correct? it seems that if he is in charge of approving blueprints, then that bypasses all of the governance structures | 21:14 |
| ttx | devcamcar: I'm not | 21:14 |
| vishy | ttx: yes to Bexar, there is one pretty nasty bug which made it in | 21:14 |
| ttx | vishy: link? | 21:14 |
| dendrobates | ewanmellor: no, between acceptance into the release and bp approval | 21:14 |
| devcamcar | ttx: thats what i thought, but dendrobates just said "member:ttx and I were suposed to review and approve all blueprints last week" | 21:14 |
| devcamcar | which is not clear | 21:15 |
| vishy | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/713430 | 21:15 |
| dendrobates | ttx helps me go through them | 21:15 |
| soren | devcamcar: Just because we have a structure with various boards and whatnot doesn't mean that noone else can make a decision about anything at all. That would grind the project to a halt. | 21:15 |
| dendrobates | and has to track them | 21:15 |
| ttx | devcamcar: agreed. I think he meant he is accepting them whie I present the list to him | 21:15 |
| devcamcar | thanks, just wanted to clarify | 21:15 |
| ewanmellor | dendrobates: So a blueprint can be "accepted into Cactus" but not actually approved as a specification? What does that mean? | 21:15 |
| devcamcar | soren: not what i was saying | 21:16 |
| dendrobates | ewanmellor: that means that we plan on the feature being included in Cactus, but... | 21:16 |
| soren | devcamcar: ok | 21:16 |
| devcamcar | soren: just wanted to clarify roles so i understand | 21:16 |
| dendrobates | we have not completed a design review. | 21:16 |
| ttx | vishy: that's a good candidate indeed. Maybe we could squeeze it into a 2011.1.1 | 21:16 |
| pvo | with the short cycle, don't we run the risk of bp/specs not being approved? | 21:17 |
| berendt | vishy: i would suggest fixing bug 713430 in the maintenance release 2011.1.1 (plan b) | 21:17 |
| pvo | it doesn't leave us much time for alternate plans | 21:17 |
| ewanmellor | dendrobates: OK, makes sense. | 21:17 |
| dendrobates | pvo: I will finish this week | 21:17 |
| pvo | when/where is the design review for cactus? | 21:17 |
| dendrobates | but that brings up another issue | 21:17 |
| ttx | vishy: we won't rush 2011.1.1, so there is time to consider it. | 21:17 |
| dendrobates | we have more bp's proposed than we can accomplish in this short release | 21:18 |
| dendrobates | especially considering the focus on testing and stabilzation | 21:18 |
| dendrobates | if it is not imperative for your feature to hit in Cactus, please withdraw it and repropose for diablo | 21:19 |
| ttx | dendrobates: you're talking about Nova, right | 21:20 |
| ewanmellor | dendrobates: Would it help if people estimated their own blueprints for instability risk and likely branch proposal date? We could put this in the Whiteboard. Low risk branches that will be ready before BMPF would be preferred, obviously. | 21:20 |
| dendrobates | yes | 21:20 |
| dendrobates | ewanmellor: yes that would be helpful | 21:20 |
| ttx | We have 30 specs proposed In Cactus for Nova, against 33 actually implemented in Bexar | 21:20 |
| ttx | Bexar had one more week | 21:20 |
| ttx | (and wasn't focused on stability) | 21:21 |
| ttx | That said the "number" of specs is not the important factor | 21:21 |
| ttx | I'd rather keep two small self-contained features and drop one disruptive refactoring spec | 21:22 |
| dendrobates | true, we really want to improve the qa process during this release, my main fear is that if we accept too many features we will lose sight of that in the rush to push features | 21:22 |
| sandywalsh_ | That should be a part of the BP ... how disruptive is it? | 21:22 |
| dendrobates | during this release, btw, 2 or more of our most productive devs will be focused on testing | 21:23 |
| dendrobates | so we will get far fewer bps done. | 21:23 |
| dendrobates | that's enough from me | 21:24 |
| ttx | ok | 21:24 |
| westmaas | are there many unassigned BPs or BPs assigned to those devs? | 21:24 |
| ttx | westmaas: no | 21:24 |
| ttx | there is no "unassigned BP" since you basically sign up for doing iy when you file it | 21:25 |
| dendrobates | though that does not always happen | 21:25 |
| dendrobates | we have picked up orphaned bp's | 21:25 |
| ttx | each group should just have a realistic look at what they can deliver in the timeframe we have... and withdraw what they can't do | 21:25 |
| ttx | and in parallel dendrobates can try to weed out the most disruptive stuff, for the sake of the stability of the release | 21:26 |
| dendrobates | or what you can hold off merging until April | 21:26 |
| ttx | I don't really mind if some targeted stuff ends up not being delivered. That's overconfidence for the group that proposed it, but it doesn't derail the release | 21:27 |
| ttx | Disruptive changes that land late, on the other hand... | 21:27 |
| ttx | ok, moving on in 10 seconds | 21:27 |
| soren | SIGALRM | 21:28 |
| dendrobates | :) | 21:28 |
| ttx | #topic Documentation priorities for Cactus | 21:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Documentation priorities for Cactus" | 21:28 | |
| ttx | annegentle: Floor is yours | 21:28 |
| annegentle | thanks | 21:28 |
| annegentle | I've been getting mixed messages about the docs - either they're really crap or they're teh awesome :) | 21:29 |
| annegentle | I think this means that there are distinct audiences and there's wayy too much redundant info, plus sites are not laser targeted to DEV or USER | 21:29 |
| annegentle | I am also getting feedback requests for top priority: OpenStack API docs for Compute. Sound right? | 21:30 |
| dendrobates | from who? | 21:30 |
| annegentle | Secondary items on the list include - reference info for flags, more images. | 21:30 |
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| annegentle | dendrobates: today's twitter feed for #OpenStack | 21:30 |
| annegentle | honestly, most of the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive | 21:31 |
| annegentle | but I do know that we have a ways to go | 21:31 |
| dendrobates | I just wondered if it's client devs | 21:31 |
| dendrobates | I think you've done great | 21:31 |
| annegentle | dendrobates: yeah I want to find out who is underserved. | 21:31 |
| annegentle | I still need a process for translating docs. Right now, the best I have is "use the wiki" | 21:31 |
| ttx | that said I like jaypipes suggestion that a new feature should come with a doc patch | 21:32 |
| annegentle | I also wanted to check with this group on a priority to "eliminate redundancy" | 21:32 |
| annegentle | ttx: agree with that one! | 21:32 |
| dendrobates | redundancy causes problems when one place gets maintained and the other does not | 21:33 |
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| annegentle | However, the redundancy is something introduced by not using RST as source for docs.openstack.org. I'd like to use RST > DocBook but need some dev help to do so. | 21:33 |
| annegentle | dendrobates: exactly. I now have 3 places to update multinode Nova install, for example. | 21:33 |
| soren | Yikes. | 21:34 |
| ttx | annegentle: I think in some cases (install instructions) we'll need to make some opinated choices rather than present 4 alternate methods | 21:34 |
| ttx | and keep alternate methods for the wiki | 21:34 |
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| annegentle | I believe my priorities for Cactus are 1) API doc 2) reference info 3) images but I need to move 4) collaboration and single-sourcing into a higher position. | 21:34 |
| soren | We could do a "Choose your own adventure" style install doc :) | 21:34 |
| dendrobates | It needs to be clear what is official documentation and what is not | 21:34 |
| annegentle | For 4) collaboration and single sourcing I need specific help | 21:35 |
| annegentle | I don't have a "trunk" for official doc yet in the openstack-devel project | 21:35 |
| annegentle | for example. That'll help me with collab and single-sourcing | 21:35 |
| annegentle | which will help with 1) API doc | 21:35 |
| dendrobates | annegentle: do you want help setting that up? | 21:35 |
| ewanmellor | Could we not autogenerate an API doc from doc-comments? It sounds like a waste of a skilled doc writer writing API definitions. | 21:36 |
| annegentle | ttx: alternate methods on the wiki works for me | 21:36 |
| soren | ewanmellor: I believe that was the idea for API docs. | 21:36 |
| ewanmellor | soren: OK, then the devs can do that, can't we? | 21:36 |
| soren | ewanmellor: I actually thought xtoddx had already looked into this. | 21:37 |
| westmaas | one of the devs here in blacksburg did some work on a sphinx plugin to autogenerate REST api docs with supporting URI examples, let me know if that could be useful | 21:37 |
| devcamcar | annegentle: we need some official documentation for glance as well | 21:37 |
| sandywalsh_ | heh, the only page I use: http://wiki.openstack.org/XenServerDevelopment | 21:37 |
| ttx | sandywalsh_: that's because you're so narrow-minded :P | 21:37 |
| annegentle | ewanmellor: yep, though there's 2 approaches I suppose - does the RST source already contain API docs? Is it possible to source all of it from RST? | 21:37 |
| * sandywalsh_ nods | 21:37 | |
| alekibango | i agree its work for developers... doc writer might have problem understanding the problem.. developer has needed knowledge | 21:38 |
| annegentle | Ah yes, Glance is also a priority. I have 2 chapters written and just haven't included them in the builds until I get more end-user install info. | 21:38 |
| RichiH | ttx: no feature without docs and no bugfix without unit test is always a good plan | 21:38 |
| alekibango | +1 | 21:38 |
| annegentle | one idea Mike Mayo and Josh Kearney floated for API docs is to set up a web server you can send curl commands to | 21:38 |
| annegentle | yes on the "no feature with out docs" I'd go as far to say "no approval/merge without docs" | 21:39 |
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| annegentle | "feature" is hard to define | 21:39 |
| annegentle | :) | 21:39 |
| ttx | annegentle: that's how you enforce it, right :) | 21:39 |
| annegentle | ok I can barely type fast enough to ensure I get priorities out to you all. | 21:39 |
| RichiH | annegentle: yah, better wording | 21:39 |
| ttx | annegentle: maybe summarize the plan on the ML for further discussion ? | 21:40 |
| annegentle | I do think I have a good idea that my next 7 weeks are going to be spent on reference docs - API and flags. Plus rounding out the Glance doc. | 21:40 |
| annegentle | ttx: yep, will do. Thanks all for the input. | 21:40 |
| ttx | ok, moving on then... | 21:41 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion" | 21:41 | |
| ttx | I posted an ML thread about Bexar postmortem feedback, don't hesitate to answer, publicly or privately, I need your feedback :) | 21:41 |
| dendrobates | my feedback is that the Release manager should not get sick at release time | 21:42 |
| ttx | +1 on that | 21:42 |
| ttx | It's been two weeks and I still can't breathe normally. | 21:42 |
| alekibango | thats hard to achive with certainty.... healthy food is best bet... | 21:42 |
| ttx | I think spectorclan is missing presentations for the OpenStack conference technical track, but he isn't around to ask for them | 21:43 |
| RichiH | soren mentioned that OS has mainly been tested with triple copies of everything which makes playing with it on just a few boxes harder/impossible -- it would be nice if there was a test mode that supported, and is tested, with fewer copies | 21:43 |
| creiht | RichiH: are you talking about object storage? | 21:44 |
| creiht | if so -> http://swift.openstack.org/development_saio.html | 21:44 |
| ewanmellor | I have updated the network-service blueprint with some goals for NaaS for Diablo. Don't hesitate to give me feedback on those. I'll be adding some more detailed design once I've got through the older specs and the feedback that I've received so far. | 21:44 |
| creiht | That installs a dev cluster on one machine | 21:45 |
| annegentle | also on Bexar postmortem, if you created a Blueprint, fill out the emailed survey about Blueprints from Stephen Spector. | 21:45 |
| ttx | ok, on those good words, we'll close for today | 21:46 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/" | 21:46 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 8 21:46:29 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:46 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-02-08-21.00.html | 21:46 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-02-08-21.00.txt | 21:46 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-02-08-21.00.log.html | 21:46 |
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| ttx | Thanks everyone, feel free to continue the open discussion on #openstack. | 21:46 |
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| RichiH | creiht: ta | 21:49 |
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