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| tbarron | #startmeeting manila | 15:01 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Oct 4 15:01:21 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tbarron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'manila' | 15:01 |
| bswartz | .o/ | 15:01 |
| ganso | hello | 15:01 |
| gouthamr | o/ | 15:01 |
| * gouthamr comes in with trout shield | 15:01 | |
| dustins | \o | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping xyang erlon | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping tpsilva vkmc | 15:02 |
| amito | hey! | 15:02 |
| * dustins sees if attack roll beats gouthamr's AC on the trout shield | 15:02 | |
| _erlon_ | Hey | 15:03 |
| tbarron | amito: through with your drive already? | 15:03 |
| jgrosso | hi | 15:03 |
| vkmc | o/ | 15:03 |
| tbarron | Hi Jason! | 15:03 |
| amito | tbarron my girlfriend is driving ;) | 15:03 |
| jgrosso | Hey Tom! | 15:03 |
| tbarron | Everyone meet jgrosso - Jason - a new addition on our team. | 15:03 |
| tbarron | Hi all! | 15:03 |
| tbarron | #topic agenda | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:04 | |
| ganso | welcome to manila jgrosso! =) | 15:04 |
| _erlon_ | Nice, hey Jason | 15:04 |
| jgrosso | Thanks!! | 15:04 |
| tbarron | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila/Meetings | 15:04 |
| jgrosso | Hey | 15:04 |
| amito | Welcome jgrosso | 15:04 |
| jgrosso | :) | 15:04 |
| tbarron | #topic Announcements | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:04 | |
| tbarron | I nominated amito for manila core. Thanks to those who have already voted. | 15:05 |
| _erlon_ | Congrats amito | 15:05 |
| amito | Thanks for all the upvotes and trust :) | 15:05 |
| tbarron | We'll give it till next Wednesday (a week after the nomination) and if there are no reservations we'll add him. | 15:05 |
| gouthamr | amito: who said anything about trust :D | 15:06 |
| tbarron | I don't have any more announcements today. Anyone else? | 15:06 |
| tbarron | Trust but verify. | 15:06 |
| * amito puts on a sinister smile | 15:06 | |
| bswartz | jgrosso from RedHat? | 15:06 |
| tbarron | bswartz: now he is, was Evil Machine Company | 15:07 |
| jgrosso | EMC | 15:07 |
| jgrosso | :) | 15:07 |
| bswartz | !!! | 15:07 |
| openstack | bswartz: Error: "!!" is not a valid command. | 15:07 |
| ganso | tbarron: lol | 15:07 |
| bswartz | I didn't know anyone remembered that acryonym | 15:07 |
| * bswartz slaps openstack around a bit with a large trout | 15:07 | |
| tbarron | he's going to be developing tests, breaking manila. | 15:08 |
| tbarron | easy work. | 15:08 |
| jgrosso | Endless Meeting Company was my fav | 15:08 |
| bswartz | welcome jgrosso! | 15:08 |
| vkmc | EMC lol | 15:08 |
| jgrosso | Thanks bswartz! | 15:08 |
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| tbarron | #topic Formalizing and changeing review guidelines. | 15:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Formalizing and changeing review guidelines. (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:08 | |
| * dustins should really keep a d20 on his desk for all the trout slapping | 15:08 | |
| tbarron | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-review-guidelines | 15:09 |
| * gouthamr did i misspell that too? :( | 15:09 | |
| tbarron | gouthamr you are up | 15:09 |
| gouthamr | ty tbarron | 15:09 |
| gouthamr | alright, this is a follow up on a short-discussion at the PTG | 15:09 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: I did a cut and paste but I think somehow introduced that extra 'e' myself | 15:09 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: no worries, you were imitating me | 15:09 |
| xyang | hi | 15:10 |
| gouthamr | there's some content over in the etherpad | 15:10 |
| * tbarron knows he meant *irritating* | 15:10 | |
| gouthamr | hi xyang! | 15:10 |
| tbarron | all that orange is really annoying | 15:10 |
| tbarron | xyang: greetings | 15:10 |
| * gouthamr slaps ganso with a trout | 15:11 | |
| gouthamr | oops, meant tbarron | 15:11 |
| ganso | gouthamr: hey! | 15:11 |
| tbarron | ouch | 15:11 |
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| gouthamr | hehe, okay.. i can tl;dr a bit | 15:11 |
| gouthamr | please look at the proposal, we're all aware of the lack of reviewer attention in manila for a while now | 15:11 |
| vkmc | we need reviewers for the reviewers guide | 15:12 |
| gouthamr | i'm proposing some new changes, and would like buy-in before formalizing them into a devref (there's your answer ganso, missed that point on the proposal, added now) | 15:12 |
| * tbarron sees what vkmc did | 15:12 | |
| bswartz | I'm confused | 15:13 |
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| _erlon_ | Good stuff, I was just wondering if allowing 1 +2 approvals for drivers bug fixes woundnt be a good case | 15:13 |
| bswartz | I thought the +2s from different organizations was meant to satisfy the organizational diversity goal from the TC | 15:13 |
| gouthamr | vkmc: i do this, a couple of releases ago I proposed this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/321334/ | 15:14 |
| gouthamr | :D | 15:14 |
| tbarron | bswartz: that was one of the goals but I think that isn't really being tracked in the same way any more? | 15:15 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: do we mind discussing each point right here? | 15:15 |
| vkmc | bswartz, apart from that, I think it's a good practice | 15:15 |
| bswartz | Well either it's something we care about or something we don't care about | 15:15 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: I don't mind spending some time if we can drive general agreement | 15:15 |
| gouthamr | tbarron bswartz: the short take on that is on lines 37 and beyond | 15:15 |
| bswartz | If we don't care about it (it seems the proposal says we shouldn't) then let's be explicit about that | 15:16 |
| gouthamr | TC changed the definition of what it meant to be organizationally diverse | 15:16 |
| bswartz | I don't think the TC would be upset | 15:16 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: they did? do you have a link? | 15:16 |
| vkmc | encouraging reviews from people with different affiliations aims to reduce bias | 15:16 |
| gouthamr | and we no longer have a tag on each project | 15:16 |
| vkmc | it's fair | 15:16 |
| gouthamr | #LINK https://review.openstack.org/#/c/579870/ | 15:16 |
| * gouthamr finds link to ML thread | 15:16 | |
| vkmc | gouthamr, you like meta-planning stuff lol | 15:17 |
| bswartz | The commit message here is fine | 15:17 |
| bswartz | ttx lays out a good case for why the tag is harmful | 15:17 |
| tbarron | vkmc: I still want to encourage diversity, the question is whether we need a rule that requires this on every review | 15:17 |
| tbarron | even when e.g. we're just fixing stuff and there's no particular organizational interest at stake | 15:18 |
| vkmc | tbarron, imho this should be mandatory for new features, not mandatory for bug fixes | 15:18 |
| gouthamr | #LINK http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-June/131029.html | 15:18 |
| bswartz | tbarron: if you think reviews add value beyond just a rubber stamp, then keep them | 15:18 |
| vkmc | there is no bias in trying to fix something that is broken | 15:18 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: +1 | 15:18 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: +1 | 15:18 |
| gouthamr | i'm only seeking dropping the need for rubber-stamp reviews | 15:19 |
| tbarron | do we leave it to the workflow+1 person's judgment whether an additional review would be rubber-stamp or real review? | 15:20 |
| bswartz | I don't think it's possible to know if a review will be a rubber stamp or not | 15:20 |
| bswartz | If you want a review, ask for it. If you want a rubber stamp, then don't ask for it and ninja merge instead | 15:20 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: nooo | 15:21 |
| bswartz | I don't see what the problem with ninja merges is | 15:21 |
| * gouthamr , points to line on Ninja Merges: #52 | 15:21 | |
| gouthamr | bswartz: i am uncomfortable doing it, and i've added a couple of links with specific cases when ninja-merges may be useful | 15:22 |
| bswartz | What's the case against ninja merges? | 15:22 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: it's anti-community? | 15:22 |
| bswartz | It's something the tools let us do -- the prohibition on them is something we enforce socially | 15:22 |
| bswartz | I would only be upset if someone exercised poor judgement with a ninja merge | 15:23 |
| gouthamr | +1, so i think we should retain our current policy on it - don't do it if you can help it | 15:23 |
| ganso | I think reviews are important everywhere except trivial changes, gate fixes and version upgrades | 15:23 |
| gouthamr | instead of relying on our judgements | 15:23 |
| gouthamr | ganso: absolutely +1 | 15:24 |
| bswartz | ganso: are you in favor of dropping the review requirements in some cases then? | 15:24 |
| ganso | yea, people's judgements vary, in a way that it may seem like another reviewer feedback is not needed but actually is | 15:24 |
| ganso | bswartz: just some cases | 15:25 |
| vkmc | ganso++ | 15:25 |
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| vkmc | ninja merging should be the last resource | 15:25 |
| amito | ganso: i agree, moreover, this is the way to improve code quality | 15:25 |
| bswartz | I think we need to trust eachother on this kind of thing. If you don't feel like you could trust someone to exercise judgement, then don't nominate them to be a core reviewer | 15:25 |
| vkmc | because we need to fix something urgently (due to time constrains) and it's safe to do it | 15:26 |
| vkmc | bswartz++ | 15:26 |
| dustins | If you abuse your powers, we'll know :) | 15:27 |
| bswartz | Yes we have audit trails of what people do | 15:27 |
| bswartz | I don't think we've had big problems with people abusing trust | 15:27 |
| bswartz | So I don't see a need to change anything | 15:28 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: can you clarify, anything, as in any of the problems in the proposal, or a specific one? | 15:28 |
| ganso | bswartz: in the end of the day we are humans and we do some mistakes, we overlook some problems in the code, having 2 reviewers is good for code quality and because we have diverse opinion on how to implement something or fix a bug. Our history has shown us many times that we had code almost merging and somebody shows up with a -1 and a valid point on something to fix or improve | 15:28 |
| tbarron | bswartz: are you saying that we don't need a doc that writes down expecations? I think that would be helpful as guidelines even | 15:29 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: I don't understand your dislike for ninja merging -- it's an important tool, and using it would solve some of the problems you seem to be complaining about | 15:29 |
| tbarron | though I don't think a set of formal rules may make sense. | 15:29 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: hey, let me remind you of your ninja merge history :) | 15:29 |
| gouthamr | bswartz | 15:29 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: it's really short :P | 15:30 |
| bswartz | And I'm still not clear on what specific problem we're trying to solve | 15:30 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: i.e, we don't really have a dire-need for writing teh code and merging it ourselves | 15:30 |
| gouthamr | before anyone else has a say in it | 15:30 |
| tbarron | note two difft kinds of ninja merges ! | 15:30 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: are you arguing that's a good thing or a bad thing? | 15:30 |
| tbarron | one reviewer different coder | 15:30 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: a good thing | 15:31 |
| tbarron | one reviewer coded change themselves | 15:31 |
| tbarron | the latter should be exceptional for sure | 15:31 |
| bswartz | Yeah I was able to avoid ninja merges for the most part | 15:31 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: there's only ONE kind of ninja merge - I am the author of the change, and i merge it myself (usually before anyone else has to weigh in) | 15:31 |
| bswartz | But that's not because I was afraid to do it, I was just able to find people quickly enough when I needed them | 15:32 |
| ganso | ninja merge = I code the fix, I merge it myself. This is not what we want. What we want: one person codes an urgent gate fix, another person from the same company solely merges it | 15:32 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: ok if that's the definition but we were also talking about more general issues | 15:32 |
| bswartz | ganso: we can achieve that by dropping our explicit diversity goal | 15:32 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: +1, i managed to dig through the team's history and see why we did it when we did it | 15:32 |
| gouthamr | and put out a couple of fine examples | 15:32 |
| tbarron | ganso: I have no problem with a ninja merge fixing gate if no one else is around | 15:32 |
| ganso | tbarron: yes, we do it excepcionally, we don't want to make it the norm | 15:33 |
| gouthamr | +1 | 15:33 |
| tpsilva | I think Valeriy used to that a lot, and it was always helpful | 15:33 |
| tbarron | or if we already agreed in the community meeting to do the change and it's trivial to execute | 15:33 |
| tpsilva | for gate fixes | 15:33 |
| ganso | tbarron: if there are 2 people are there is no need to ninja merge | 15:33 |
| gouthamr | +1 | 15:33 |
| tbarron | ganso: ditr | 15:33 |
| ganso | s/are there/around, there | 15:33 |
| tbarron | s/ditr/sure/ | 15:34 |
| tbarron | So do we have a problem with people ninja merging now or is this a matter of writing down our expectations? | 15:34 |
| bswartz | Writing down the current expectations makes sense | 15:35 |
| bswartz | I don't see a need to change any longstanding policy | 15:35 |
| bswartz | Although I'd be open to changing policies for good reasons | 15:35 |
| bswartz | I just feel like I'm missing something | 15:36 |
| * bswartz goes to read etherpad one more time | 15:36 | |
| gouthamr | that's good clarification, ty - can i ask about specific proposals? or do you want to discuss this on a review? | 15:36 |
| ganso | gouthamr: we could consolidate it on a doc page through gerrit review | 15:36 |
| gouthamr | i see some good points on the etherpad, ty ganso, tbarron, tpsilva (?) | 15:36 |
| tbarron | We've taken a bit of time today but it's been a healthy discussion. | 15:37 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: why don't you post this in review. Then let's have another meeting topic after everyone | 15:37 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: ack, will do | 15:37 |
| tbarron | has had a chance to digest it again, have sidebar conversations, etc. | 15:38 |
| gouthamr | absolutely, thanks everyone! | 15:38 |
| tbarron | I think it was good to have the etherpad and open discussion rather than just a bare review. | 15:38 |
| tbarron | #topic Planning Our work | 15:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Planning Our work (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:39 | |
| tbarron | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila/SteinCycle | 15:39 |
| tbarron | We introduced this wiki page last week and it's still WIP but | 15:39 |
| tbarron | I want to spend a few minutes discussing how to maintain and use it. | 15:40 |
| tbarron | Let's look at the python3 topic as an example. | 15:40 |
| tbarron | vkmc is the lead on this story. | 15:40 |
| tbarron | Doesn't mean that she does all the work. | 15:41 |
| tbarron | But she is responsible for defining the tasks and for ensuring that | 15:41 |
| tbarron | the status is up to date. | 15:41 |
| tbarron | She can do that by editing the wiki or by emailing me since I'm going to do at least a weekly sweep. | 15:42 |
| tbarron | other people doing work on this project -- like gouthamr -- can do the same. | 15:42 |
| tbarron | No strict hierarchy. | 15:42 |
| tbarron | Make sense? | 15:42 |
| dustins | +1 | 15:42 |
| gouthamr | +1 | 15:42 |
| vkmc | +1 | 15:43 |
| * tbarron notes that he filled this one out and vkmc and gouthamr should slap him with trout and ensure that it's corrected after the meeting | 15:43 | |
| bswartz | Makes sense | 15:43 |
| amito | +1 | 15:43 |
| tbarron | ok, moving down the list | 15:43 |
| tbarron | Jun isn't here today so we'll skip Priority for Access rules. | 15:43 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: check that what I said on the json schema validation is correct | 15:44 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: it is | 15:44 |
| gouthamr | we sent an email to the spec owners asking if they want to continue working on JSON schema validation for Stein, no response yet | 15:44 |
| tbarron | ganso: on manage/unmaage dhss=true please update or send me mail and I will | 15:45 |
| ganso | tbarron: thanks for reminding me, I'll update | 15:45 |
| tbarron | ganso: same for replicatin/dhss=True and share from snapshot in different pool/back end | 15:45 |
| tbarron | vkmc: please check manila ui plugin (also dustins ) | 15:46 |
| dustins | tbarron: wilco | 15:46 |
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| tbarron | on manila CSI gouthamr is scheduling a meeting with the CERN folks who are proposing same | 15:46 |
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| gouthamr | +1, forgot to add it to this meeting, we just have confirmation of availability from the CERN folks | 15:47 |
| tbarron | and we're working with hodgepodge on standing sig-k8s meetings on manila and cinder CSI | 15:47 |
| tbarron | all early stuff | 15:47 |
| gouthamr | if we have anyone here that would like to know what's going on right now with Manila/CSI/dynamic-provisioner/*, please let me know i'll forward you an invite | 15:48 |
| tbarron | vkmc: you own the uwsgi project | 15:48 |
| vkmc | yes | 15:48 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: you are driving osc integration | 15:48 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: ack, status coming soon-ish | 15:48 |
| tbarron | note that this should be a project to which we can have lots of contributors once it's underway | 15:49 |
| gouthamr | +1 | 15:49 |
| tbarron | amito: you are going to lead the sdk integration I think? | 15:49 |
| amito | tbarron: yep | 15:49 |
| tbarron | another one that once framed we should be able to have people sign up for chunks of work | 15:50 |
| gouthamr | tbarron amito: storyboard: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2003752 | 15:50 |
| gouthamr | for the OS-SDK work | 15:50 |
| amito | tbarron: some of it has already been implemented in the PTG, I don't think it should be a lot of work | 15:50 |
| tbarron | vkmc: are you planning a spec for the next telemetry work ? | 15:50 |
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| vkmc | tbarron, I don't think is needed since it was mostly finish work we had planned in the previous spec and documentation | 15:51 |
| vkmc | tbarron, but if we need it, I'll submit it by the end of the week | 15:51 |
| tbarron | vkmc: k, makes sense, that's kinda what I was thinking. | 15:51 |
| vkmc | :) | 15:51 |
| tbarron | Any more on this topic today? Going forwards I'm hoping most of keeping this up to date will be *outside* this meeting. | 15:52 |
| tbarron | #topic Bugs | 15:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:52 | |
| tbarron | dustins: got any for us today? | 15:52 |
| dustins | Just one today, since the other was already squashed by gouthamr | 15:53 |
| tbarron | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila/SteinCycle#Bug_Triage | 15:53 |
| dustins | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-bug-triage-pad | 15:53 |
| tbarron | jinx | 15:53 |
| dustins | #link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/manila/+bug/1795463 | 15:53 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1795463 in Manila "pagination limit not enforced on db" [Undecided,New] | 15:53 |
| bswartz | Is this just a missing optimization? | 15:53 |
| gouthamr | tech debt :( | 15:54 |
| bswartz | Doing pagination right is hard work | 15:54 |
| bswartz | I think the bug description should read "pagination doesn't speed up list queries" | 15:55 |
| gouthamr | true | 15:55 |
| bswartz | Because speeding up the operation is the whole point | 15:55 |
| tbarron | so this one is confirmed, right? | 15:56 |
| gouthamr | currently, we're using some python methods to do the limit and the offset, but as maurice notes, this should be done in the DB to get some speedup | 15:56 |
| tbarron | how serious? | 15:56 |
| gouthamr | we've some examples in the newer APIs | 15:56 |
| tbarron | do we want maurice if he wants to fix it? | 15:56 |
| bswartz | It's a performance bug, so that lowers the priority somewhat | 15:57 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: examples of doing it right? | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: we want maurice :D | 15:57 |
| tbarron | bswartz: +1 | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: yes, i think, i can point it out on the bug, he points to an old manila commit that dropped it in the /shares APO | 15:58 |
| gouthamr | API* | 15:58 |
| tbarron | #action gouthamr will update the bug with pointers and ask maurice if he wants to work on it | 15:59 |
| tbarron | I did the other updates | 15:59 |
| gouthamr | ack | 16:00 |
| tbarron | #action dustins put this on in your keep-track-of list on the etherpad please | 16:00 |
| tbarron | out of time | 16:00 |
| * bswartz glances at the clock | 16:00 | |
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| tbarron | Thanks everyone!!! | 16:00 |
| bswartz | thx! | 16:00 |
| tbarron | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 16:00 | |
| dustins | tbarron: Done! | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Oct 4 16:00:42 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-10-04-15.01.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-10-04-15.01.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-10-04-15.01.log.html | 16:00 |
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