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| zns | #startmeeting satori | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Apr 7 15:00:31 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is zns. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: satori)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'satori' | 15:00 |
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| zns | Good morning/afternoon! Who's here? | 15:01 |
| samstav | o/ | 15:01 |
| gondoi | o/ | 15:01 |
| gusmaskowitz | o/ | 15:01 |
| gusmaskowitz | howdy folks | 15:01 |
| jasonpgignac | o/ | 15:01 |
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| zns | Cool. I think others are out today, so we have quorum. | 15:02 |
| zns | #topic action items | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "action items (Meeting topic: satori)" | 15:02 | |
| zns | Reviewing action items: #1 address possible duplication between 1295391 and 1293670 - DONE | 15:03 |
| zns | #action zns start ML discussion & blueprint for built-in python data plane discovery | 15:03 |
| zns | Not done. | 15:03 |
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| zns | gondoi - we didn't "discuss netloc_info and ip_info" ... but did you "create blueprint"? | 15:03 |
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| gondoi | yes | 15:04 |
| zns | Cool. DONE. Thank you! | 15:04 |
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| zns | #action caleb_ Developer docs for doing discovery using Python rather than the command line | 15:04 |
| gondoi | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/satori/+spec/ip-and-netloc-info | 15:04 |
| zns | assuming not done. | 15:04 |
| zns | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/satori/+spec/ip-and-netloc-info | 15:04 |
| hhoover | o/ (sorry for lateness) | 15:04 |
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| zns | Hi hhoover | 15:04 |
| zns | manage the agenda and the Thursday cut-off for topics - partially done. | 15:05 |
| zns | I updated the meeting docs, but I did not send out a note last week on the ready agenda items.Sorry about that. I'll put it in my book for this week. | 15:05 |
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| zns | gusmaskowitz: create a spec and blueprint for Triple-O - status? | 15:05 |
| gusmaskowitz | DONE. | 15:05 |
| zns | Nice. | 15:06 |
| zns | Do you have a link? | 15:06 |
| gusmaskowitz | I wont say it's a GREAT blueprint…. but it's there | 15:06 |
| zns | That counts. | 15:06 |
| gusmaskowitz | now for the discussion. | 15:06 |
| zns | gusmaskowitz: link? | 15:06 |
| gusmaskowitz | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Satori/Specialize-in-Tripple-O-Discovery | 15:06 |
| zns | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Satori/Specialize-in-Tripple-O-Discovery | 15:07 |
| zns | Thanks | 15:07 |
| zns | gondoi: adding blueprint/spec URLs next to these topic items and adding them to next weeks agenda? | 15:07 |
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| gondoi | ? | 15:07 |
| gusmaskowitz | zns that was the wiki link sorry. This is the blueprint. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/satori/+spec/satori-specialize-in-tripple-o | 15:08 |
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| zns | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/satori/+spec/satori-specialize-in-tripple-o | 15:08 |
| zns | gondoi: that was an action item (including me to help!) from last week. | 15:08 |
| gondoi | oh yes | 15:08 |
| gondoi | done | 15:08 |
| zns | Great. | 15:08 |
| gondoi | there is a blueprint, but i did not create the spec urls to the wiki | 15:09 |
| gondoi | links in the meeting notes | 15:09 |
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| zns | Cool. | 15:09 |
| gondoi | sorry i mean agenda | 15:09 |
| zns | Does anyone want to discuss a specific blueprint or spec from https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Satori ? | 15:10 |
| zns | Given I didn't send an email out, I'm not going to assume the topics have been read by all... | 15:10 |
| samstav | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/satori/+spec/satori-minimal | 15:10 |
| zns | I did write this spec https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Satori/DiscoverySchema on Thursday, but did not send it out. | 15:11 |
| zns | samstav: I know you spent a lot of time on that one. | 15:11 |
| samstav | Unfortunately so. I have a couple things to mention | 15:12 |
| zns | # topic Discuss https://blueprints.launchpad.net/satori/+spec/satori-minimal | 15:12 |
| zns | samstav: go ahead... | 15:12 |
| gondoi | 140 characters or less :P | 15:13 |
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| samstav | This is a description of where I left off | 15:13 |
| samstav | https://gist.github.com/smlstvnh/9863169 | 15:13 |
| zns | multimedia. Love it. samstav raising the bar. | 15:13 |
| samstav | I would bore you to tears going into the details, but most of them are there. Currently looking for alternatives to the initial implementation idea. | 15:14 |
| samstav | The attempt also resulted in an bug + patch to pbr : | 15:14 |
| samstav | patch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/84218/ | 15:14 |
| samstav | bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/pbr/+bug/1300381 | 15:15 |
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| samstav | Mr. Hellman seems skeptical, but I'm still waiting for a reply on the bug discussion | 15:15 |
| zns | samstav: what alternative are you leaning towards? Or what direction do you want to take this to? | 15:16 |
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| samstav | The idea is, you can create a package's environment so that it can be extended, but it's hard to do it the other way around, I found. | 15:17 |
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| zns | And that conflicts with that we want the default package to be the full one with all dependencies... right? | 15:17 |
| samstav | We were trying to create a "base" package with full dependencies, and a "minimal", alternative package with *fewer dependencies. | 15:18 |
| samstav | zns exactly | 15:18 |
| zns | The conflict arises when we use the same package for those two use cases. So are we going to need to have two packages? | 15:18 |
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| samstav | We either need two packages, or for the "base" package to be the minimal one | 15:19 |
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| zns | I prefer the first option, since the minimal package is for a very precise use case that is not the most common one. | 15:19 |
| zns | i.e. two packages | 15:20 |
| samstav | OK, that is definitely the quickest solution as well | 15:20 |
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| zns | The use case being, just for the record, for those who want to run satori for data plane discovery on a local machine. So they don't want to have to install nova client and paramiko with their complex dependencies... | 15:21 |
| samstav | How will we handle the namespacing? e.g. if I have satori-minimal installed AND satori installed in the same environment? | 15:21 |
| zns | good point. Not only the package names should be different, but potentially the app as well. | 15:22 |
| zns | Unless we have a special entry point and packge name: mini-satori | 15:22 |
| samstav | My assumption is that you will get the same code installed, but import statements will be try;except [ed], and that they have the same namespace | 15:22 |
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| samstav | or is that ^^ chaos | 15:23 |
| zns | What happens if I have satori installed and then I run pip install satori-minimal? | 15:23 |
| zns | It should be a noop if we're going to have both be supported... | 15:23 |
| samstav | right. Is that possible? | 15:23 |
| zns | And that feels jacky. | 15:23 |
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| zns | hacky! | 15:24 |
| samstav | hmmmmmm. | 15:24 |
| zns | Consider then running pip uninstall satori-minimal. Wouldn't that break satori? | 15:24 |
| samstav | Well, that depends on how pip handles these packages. | 15:24 |
| zns | Unless satori depends on satori-minimal and that's how the packages are builtt? | 15:25 |
| samstav | Can packages have a different name on pypi but the same application-package name? | 15:25 |
| zns | I believe it is possible. I don't know how clean that will be for folks installing/uninstalling packages. | 15:25 |
| samstav | satori depends on satori-minimal… sure. | 15:25 |
| samstav | that sounds right, right? | 15:26 |
| gondoi | i like that | 15:26 |
| gondoi | satori-mini being a dep of satori | 15:26 |
| zns | It sounds like it would work. I don't know about if it is the "right" solution. Too subjective of a term :-) | 15:26 |
| zns | Me too. Sounds like the better path. | 15:26 |
| gondoi | what about calling it satori-local | 15:27 |
| samstav | It's not always obvious, unless you're dutch. | 15:27 |
| zns | samstav: do you want to explore that? | 15:27 |
| samstav | satori-local is probably better if that is its primary use case | 15:27 |
| zns | +1 satori-local | 15:27 |
| samstav | +1 | 15:27 |
| zns | # agreed we'll handle the local use case by creating a satori-local package and having satori depend on it to minimize duplication of code and keeping packages clean. | 15:28 |
| zns | #agreed we'll handle the local use case by creating a satori-local package and having satori depend on it to minimize duplication of code and keeping packages clean. | 15:28 |
| samstav | Sounds good. I'll explore it | 15:28 |
| zns | Thanks. | 15:29 |
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| zns | Can we discuss https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Satori/DiscoverySchema? Any objections? | 15:29 |
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| gondoi | sounds good to me | 15:29 |
| zns | #topic Schema https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Satori/DiscoverySchema | 15:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Schema https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Satori/DiscoverySchema (Meeting topic: satori)" | 15:29 | |
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| zns | I have some specific questions to bring up, but fire away if you have some too... first question: | 15:30 |
| zns | How do you feel about the "errors" array? Is it intuitive? Any objections? | 15:30 |
| gondoi | i like it.. do we care what order they happened in? | 15:31 |
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| zns | The idea is that not all errors mean discovery should fail. We can have partially successful discoveries. | 15:31 |
| jasonpgignac | I imagine the user will, optionally, want some sort of Stack Trace. | 15:31 |
| gondoi | or possibly additional contextual data around the error, like what was being executed | 15:32 |
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| zns | gondoi: I can't think of a use case. Especially since some operations might happen in parallel. Can you think of a use case? | 15:32 |
| hhoover | jasonpgignac: I would want to know the WHY around an error | 15:32 |
| zns | jasonpgignac: how about that gets added if --debug is turned on? | 15:32 |
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| jasonpgignac | hhoover: I agree in concept. However, my experience of error handling is that many errors occur that we as the devs do not expect. These errors, we don't KNOW the why. So we cannot communicate it to the user. | 15:33 |
| zns | I don't think stack traces should be provided in output by default. | 15:33 |
| samstav | Now --debug is affecting not only how satori runs but the discovery results ? | 15:33 |
| gondoi | zns: no i don't think so unless it's a timing issue... but I can't think of any off the top of my head | 15:33 |
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| samstav | not "Now", I mean "Then". That might be odd. But a separate option might be overkill. Hmm. | 15:34 |
| jasonpgignac | zns: I imagine you will have a lot of people irritated at running a five minute discovery, having it error, not knowing what to do with the error because it provides limited information, and having to wait 5 minutes to run it again, with debug on. | 15:34 |
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| jasonpgignac | zns: This is a technical tool, with a target market of people who not only can read a stacktrace, but would prefer to have the data vailable in the case of an error, I would think? | 15:35 |
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| hhoover | maybe the error messages just need to be very descriptive. "could not log in" != "server unreachable" | 15:35 |
| zns | Even technical tools don't output stack traces unless you have debugging turned on. Give me an example of one that does? | 15:35 |
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| jasonpgignac | hhoover: DEFINITELY more descriptive, and perhaps we can just make the carefully defined errors show iwth no stacktrace, but an unexpected one be more descriptive? | 15:36 |
| zns | hhoover: +1 | 15:36 |
| zns | Good error messages/handling. | 15:36 |
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| jasonpgignac | This would require a lot of work from the devs to make sure they catch ONLY the VERY narrow situation they'e planned for. And write a lot of error handlers. | 15:36 |
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| samstav | Can we think for a second about *not* including error information directly inside the discovery results? | 15:37 |
| samstav | But rather, *always* write a log somewhere, much like pip does? | 15:37 |
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| samstav | Unless the error information is a valid piece of discovery results | 15:37 |
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| zns | samstav: how would that work when satori is used as a library? | 15:37 |
| gondoi | that would be good, then you can dump whatever you want in the logs and not bother the user | 15:37 |
| jasonpgignac | samstav: That's a great idea. Then write a little "There was errors in this discovery. For more info see foo/satori-broke-sorry.log | 15:37 |
| hhoover | It could say something like, errors occurred, check satori.log for info | 15:37 |
| hhoover | or some such | 15:38 |
| hhoover | +1 jasonpgignac | 15:38 |
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| samstav | hhoover yes that is exactly what I was thinking, esp. when I referenced pip | 15:38 |
| gondoi | zns: thinking about the library use case | 15:38 |
| samstav | ins good question | 15:38 |
| samstav | zns* ^ | 15:38 |
| jasonpgignac | If you use it as a library, then we shoudl raise errors. | 15:39 |
| gondoi | maybe we can only put the log file work in the shell.py related code? | 15:39 |
| zns | We could return a tuple, with errors and other non-results in the other variable. | 15:39 |
| jasonpgignac | And let the developer wrapping it catch them if they wish. | 15:39 |
| zns | jasonpgignac: that defeats the use case of supporting partially successful discoveries. | 15:39 |
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| jasonpgignac | zns: No, it just gives the user control over whether they would LIKE a partially successful discovery. | 15:39 |
| jasonpgignac | Libraries should fail loudly and give freedom of handling to the implementer. | 15:40 |
| jasonpgignac | IMHO | 15:40 |
| zns | So what is returned if a discovery succeeds partially? | 15:40 |
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| zns | gondoi: I like that. Then one response comes from the discovery code and shell.py strips out the errors? | 15:41 |
| jasonpgignac | Then, let the user receive the error, log it, handle it, or deal with as they wish, and decide what to do with the parts that worked. | 15:41 |
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| gondoi | yes and logs to file the excess info for reference later | 15:41 |
| zns | jasonpgignac: How would you raise an error and return valid results at the same time? | 15:42 |
| gondoi | ~/.satori/logs/satori.log (possibly) | 15:42 |
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| jasonpgignac | Have an error that returns the partially completed results as a property of itself? | 15:42 |
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| zns | jasonpgignac: -1. Does not feel pythonic to me... | 15:43 |
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| zns | I don't think we should be returning valid results inside errors. Furthermore, how would that work when there are multiple errors? Feels like the wrong direction... | 15:44 |
| jasonpgignac | zns: A function that returns data to me on a partial failure feels highly idiosyncratic to me. | 15:44 |
| zns | I prefer gondoi's approach. Strip errors out in shell.py | 15:44 |
| jasonpgignac | 'sfine. Just the way I see it. Failures shoudl look like failures. I should not have to check if something partially failed. That feels like tricking the end user. | 15:45 |
| jasonpgignac | The user of the library, I mean. | 15:45 |
| jasonpgignac | I mean, that sounds like, maybe, an OPTION I could feed in? | 15:46 |
| samstav | So, in shell.py, we strip out errors from the discovery results, but if satori is being used as a library, we leave tracebacks/error messages inside the discovery return body? | 15:46 |
| jasonpgignac | Like, "satoriobjectthing.discover(ignore_errors=true) | 15:47 |
| samstav | Not sure if I followed all of that correctly. | 15:47 |
| jasonpgignac | But the default, to me, would be false. | 15:47 |
| jasonpgignac | But I can submit to the opinion of the majority, that's fine. | 15:47 |
| zns | samstav: yes. | 15:47 |
| samstav | The code/fns used to strip out those errors should be exposed to the user of the library so that they can do the same. | 15:48 |
| jasonpgignac | I have another question, too, but can wait until we are done with this part | 15:48 |
| zns | jasonpgignac: I'm just concerned that if we raise an error on every failure, we're not going to have a useable library. Think about how we've been using this at Rackspace. We provide a lot of useful information even if we can't access one server in a topology. | 15:49 |
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| jasonpgignac | zns: I can have a more thorough conversation on what I think woudl be the solution to that, but it might be bigger than this meeting. | 15:49 |
| samstav | I.e. it should be part of satori's python API. I am re-considering my opinion that errors/tbs shouldn't be part of the discovery results, because there really isn't a better place for them. Esp. from a python API perspective, I would like to have access to those tracebacks and error context right where the data would have otherwise been. | 15:50 |
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| zns | jasonpgignac: I don't believe "Libraries should fail loudly and give freedom of handling to the implementer" translates to "Always raise an exception" and never return partial results. We're returning errors clearly. And in some cases, when we're doing a sequence of steps, we can return a grape of what succeeded and what did not. | 15:51 |
| jasonpgignac | zns: I see your point, I think that essentially the problem is that you are not running and returning the results of one mehtod - you are running a number of interrelated methdos with essentially independent result sets that are then integrated into a related set of data. | 15:52 |
| jasonpgignac | What you have are essentialyl a set of nested promises, some of which you may break. | 15:53 |
| zns | samstav: I agree. And if --debug is true, maybe the errors list returned would also have tracebacks. Then a library caller can parse those results. | 15:53 |
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| jasonpgignac | As a library user, I would like to be able to decide which of those promises I can live without being fulfilled, and which are entirely essential, in a simple, default way. | 15:53 |
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| jasonpgignac | So, a set of nested promise handlers, more or less. | 15:53 |
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| jasonpgignac | If I DON'T provie a handler, though, I don't think the right thing to is assume I dont' care if a given piece of data works. | 15:54 |
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| zns | jasonpgignac: we've not built in the ability to specify what you want yet. Right now, satori decides that. At some point, that could be a feature. | 15:55 |
| gondoi | is this something we may want to finalize in #openstack-satori if we have anything else to quickly discuss? | 15:55 |
| zns | 5 minutes left... | 15:55 |
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| zns | How about I take this feedback and come back with an updated proposal next week? | 15:56 |
| jasonpgignac | zns: Yes, as stated, I think this conversation is probably bigger than this meeting. I am willing to defer to the majority opinion, or to table until we have mroe time. | 15:56 |
| gondoi | i would like to see a more final proposal... maybe we can mull over it and find a time to discuss before the next meeting? | 15:57 |
| jasonpgignac | agreed | 15:57 |
| zns | OK. I'll rev the proposal and send that out. We can then set up a time to discuss. | 15:58 |
| gondoi | sounds good | 15:58 |
| zns | OK. Thank you for the good discussion. We're out of time for today. | 15:58 |
| samstav | cool | 15:59 |
| gondoi | thanks zns | 15:59 |
| zns | #endmeeting | 15:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Apr 7 15:59:08 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/satori/2014/satori.2014-04-07-15.00.html | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/satori/2014/satori.2014-04-07-15.00.txt | 15:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/satori/2014/satori.2014-04-07-15.00.log.html | 15:59 |
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| jasonpgignac | thanks! | 15:59 |
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| colinmcnamara | hey guys | 17:03 |
| colinmcnamara | OpenStack Docs meeting - anyone here? | 17:04 |
| matjazp | hi colinmcnamara | 17:04 |
| colinmcnamara | hey, give me a minute to get the meetbot commands | 17:04 |
| colinmcnamara | #startmeeting training-manuals | 17:05 |
| colinmcnamara | #startmeeting training-manuals | 17:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Apr 7 17:05:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is colinmcnamara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: training-manuals)" | 17:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'training_manuals' | 17:05 |
| colinmcnamara | ok people. OpenStack training-manuals roll call | 17:06 |
| colinmcnamara | colinmcnamara present | 17:06 |
| chandan_kumar | hello | 17:06 |
| colinmcnamara | hello chandan_kumar: | 17:07 |
| matjazp | matjazp here | 17:07 |
| colinmcnamara | hello matjazp: | 17:07 |
| colinmcnamara | proposed Topics | 17:07 |
| colinmcnamara | 1. Trello board task status | 17:07 |
| colinmcnamara | 2. OpenStack Design Summit Prep | 17:07 |
| colinmcnamara | 3. Developer guide status | 17:08 |
| colinmcnamara | any other proposed topics? | 17:08 |
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| colinmcnamara | ok, moving forward with proposed topics | 17:09 |
| matjazp | nothing new for Moodle integration with Oauth2... can't get in touch with mordred | 17:09 |
| colinmcnamara | ok, I'm going to add that as a task in the trello board | 17:09 |
| colinmcnamara | (time to be a scrum nazi) | 17:09 |
| matjazp | colinmcnamara: can you add me to participants in trello board? | 17:09 |
| colinmcnamara | Matjazp: what is your id on trello? | 17:09 |
| matjazp | matjazp | 17:10 |
| colinmcnamara | done | 17:10 |
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| colinmcnamara | so, you are having trouble getting into touch with mordred | 17:10 |
| colinmcnamara | have you tried popping into the infra channel and asking for support? | 17:11 |
| matjazp | yup.. tried email and IRC.. | 17:11 |
| colinmcnamara | or are you running into release time crunch | 17:11 |
| matjazp | I could just ask anyonethere... I was specifically targeting mordred, because sarob told me he's aldready spoken with him about moodle and possibility of hosting it in opestack-infra | 17:12 |
| colinmcnamara | ok, and Sean is just getting back from holiday | 17:13 |
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| colinmcnamara | I'll follow up with him this week | 17:13 |
| matjazp | cool | 17:13 |
| colinmcnamara | I think we are just hitting a wall on that one | 17:13 |
| colinmcnamara | so I've moved that to impeded since forward process is waiting on mordred | 17:13 |
| colinmcnamara | is dguitarbyte: on? | 17:14 |
| colinmcnamara | I see that there is a patch in day2 lab still in doing | 17:14 |
| colinmcnamara | #info need more info from Pranav | 17:16 |
| colinmcnamara | Sean is back in the saddle this week, and will be working on the how to contribute | 17:17 |
| colinmcnamara | I am still working on the Dev Course merge, I may have to merge the outline later this week | 17:17 |
| matjazp | colinmcnamara: Django based course is progressing? | 17:18 |
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| colinmcnamara | yes it is | 17:18 |
| colinmcnamara | so I've been taking on a couple tasks | 17:18 |
| colinmcnamara | the biggest one is for a canned CI workflow | 17:18 |
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| colinmcnamara | I have my teams at Nexus refactoring the www.denicacloud.com code | 17:19 |
| colinmcnamara | to contribute the core CI stack as part | 17:19 |
| colinmcnamara | the individual puppet modules are upstreamed | 17:19 |
| colinmcnamara | but still refactoring for the "wrapper of wrappers" | 17:19 |
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| colinmcnamara | the gerrit and jenkins modules are already done - https://github.com/nexusis | 17:20 |
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| colinmcnamara | teams are still actively pulling our commercial code out of stuff | 17:20 |
| colinmcnamara | so we can release the git configuration, and then the openstack deployer tool | 17:20 |
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| colinmcnamara | still going on the Django stuff | 17:24 |
| colinmcnamara | also, waiting for ashleymcnamara: to get done with school | 17:25 |
| colinmcnamara | she's at Rackspace | 17:25 |
| colinmcnamara | and I think I can talk her into some of this, she's good at Django | 17:25 |
| matjazp | Django is mor or less a vehicle to learning OpenStack API, so probably just basic Django stuff is prefered | 17:26 |
| colinmcnamara | exactly | 17:26 |
| colinmcnamara | it also gets people confortable with using django, with horizon is written in | 17:26 |
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| colinmcnamara | which has a bunch of code for interacting with OpenStack API's | 17:27 |
| colinmcnamara | there is a method to the madness | 17:27 |
| matjazp | cool, can't wait to see the results... | 17:27 |
| matjazp | too bad that we don't teach Django in our Web Programming course (Rails and other frameworks, but not Django) | 17:28 |
| colinmcnamara | yeah, can be extended | 17:28 |
| colinmcnamara | but have to start somewhere | 17:28 |
| colinmcnamara | that is all I have | 17:28 |
| colinmcnamara | Any other business? | 17:28 |
| matjazp | well.. | 17:29 |
| matjazp | I was invited to speak at a OpenStack CEE day | 17:29 |
| matjazp | CEE=Central and Eastern Europe | 17:29 |
| matjazp | I was thinking of presenting OpenStack Training Manuals | 17:29 |
| colinmcnamara | Awesome! | 17:29 |
| colinmcnamara | NICE | 17:30 |
| matjazp | to get some traction around here | 17:30 |
| colinmcnamara | so, reach out to stef | 17:30 |
| colinmcnamara | so that it gets on the OpenStack blog | 17:30 |
| matjazp | Sure, but I'll wait for conformation | 17:30 |
| colinmcnamara | cool | 17:30 |
| matjazp | last year it was a first event- I talked about SDN in general adn Neutron | 17:31 |
| matjazp | so this year I can pitch Training manuals to general public | 17:32 |
| colinmcnamara | absolutely | 17:32 |
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| matjazp | first two guides are finished (to the point of beeing usable) | 17:33 |
| matjazp | the more feedback we receive, the better | 17:33 |
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| colinmcnamara | I agree | 17:34 |
| matjazp | You and Sean are presenting Training manuals at Dev Summit? | 17:34 |
| colinmcnamara | Yeah | 17:35 |
| colinmcnamara | everyone is welcome | 17:35 |
| matjazp | ok, could reuse some of your material | 17:35 |
| colinmcnamara | absolutely, let's sync up and I'll share | 17:36 |
| matjazp | ok, cool | 17:37 |
| matjazp | that's it from me | 17:37 |
| colinmcnamara | Any other biz? | 17:37 |
| matjazp | nope | 17:37 |
| colinmcnamara | ok then, thanks for all the effort everyone | 17:38 |
| colinmcnamara | #endmeeting | 17:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:38 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Apr 7 17:38:23 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:38 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_manuals/2014/training_manuals.2014-04-07-17.05.html | 17:38 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_manuals/2014/training_manuals.2014-04-07-17.05.txt | 17:38 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_manuals/2014/training_manuals.2014-04-07-17.05.log.html | 17:38 |
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| redrobot | It's 20:00 UTC, which means, it's Barbican time! :D | 20:00 |
| reaperhulk | \o/ | 20:01 |
| redrobot | who all is here for the Barbican weekly meeting? | 20:01 |
| alee_ | yo | 20:01 |
| atiwari | \0/ | 20:01 |
| arunkant | 0/ | 20:01 |
| codekobe | o/ | 20:01 |
| redrobot | ok, lots of peeps here. let's get this started | 20:02 |
| redrobot | #startmeeting barbican | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Apr 7 20:02:15 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is redrobot. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: barbican)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'barbican' | 20:02 |
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| redrobot | as usual the agenda can be found here: | 20:03 |
| redrobot | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Barbican | 20:03 |
| redrobot | is malini here? | 20:03 |
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| redrobot | looks like malini is out this week. We'll follow up on the OpenStack Security guide next week. | 20:04 |
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| hockeynut | o/ | 20:04 |
| lisaclark | o/ | 20:04 |
| woodster1 | o/ | 20:04 |
| jraim | o/ | 20:05 |
| redrobot | ok, so first up, let's talk about plugin changes | 20:05 |
| redrobot | #topic Crypto Plugin changes | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Crypto Plugin changes (Meeting topic: barbican)" | 20:05 | |
| atiwari | sure | 20:05 |
| alee_ | yup | 20:05 |
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| * redrobot is hunting for urls | 20:06 | |
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| atiwari | we had some discussion last week regarding interface contracts and method signature | 20:06 |
| atiwari | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82189/6/barbican/crypto/plugin.py | 20:06 |
| redrobot | #link alee_ 's changes https://review.openstack.org/#/c/84329/ | 20:06 |
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| alee_ | it looks like there are two changes out there right now for the plugin -- one to support drm and one to support asymmetric keys | 20:07 |
| atiwari | yes, mine is at #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82189/6 | 20:08 |
| redrobot | right, I think so far we're wanting to land the DRM change, and then discuss the asymmetric approach | 20:08 |
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| alee_ | so has anyone had a chance to review the DRM changes? | 20:08 |
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| redrobot | I apologize, but I've had this one on the backburner myself. | 20:09 |
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| atiwari | I did it last week and mentioned that we are making changes in same land | 20:09 |
| redrobot | one question that was outstanding for you, alee_ is why the DRM plugin needs the UUID for the secret? | 20:09 |
| alee_ | I know reaperhulk has looked at it -- any comments/ changes needed? | 20:10 |
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| alee_ | redrobot, the drm needs an id to label the secret | 20:10 |
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| alee_ | redrobot, we decided that that id would be the uuid | 20:10 |
| redrobot | alee_ there were some concerns here about the extra load this will add to the DB | 20:11 |
| redrobot | reaperhulk, woodster1 do you guys want to weigh in on it? | 20:11 |
| woodster1 | alee: could the DRM plugin generate a unique identifier for the secret on its own? | 20:11 |
| alee_ | the drm does in fact generate its own id - which would be unique for the drm - and so we could just pass in some random string | 20:12 |
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| alee_ | basically then you would not really be using the client key id | 20:12 |
| woodster1 | alee: I was a little concerned about having barbican details leaking into the plugin contract | 20:12 |
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| alee_ | woodster1, the idea is that the client (which in this case is barbican) provides some label for the secret stored | 20:13 |
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| alee_ | it doesn't have to be the uuid for the secret - but that seems to make sense. | 20:13 |
| reaperhulk | well, uuids aren't particularly specific details, but we don't get a uuid until we save the object so we don't actually have that available to pass to the plugin without significant changes (and those changes would increase the DB load quite a bit) | 20:13 |
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| woodster1 | alee: I was hoping that the DRM could create a unique id/handle that would be stored in barbican, and then passed back to barbican when a decrypt is needed. | 20:14 |
| alee_ | woodster1, it does in fact do that -- and that is in fact stored for the decruypt | 20:14 |
| redrobot | iirc, this would be a use case for the kek_meta binding with the plugin? | 20:14 |
| alee_ | woodster1, I can create a random string in the plugin to use for the client key id - in which case the secret need not be created until afterwards | 20:15 |
| woodster1 | I believe kek_metadata is scoped at the tenant level now rather than per-secret | 20:15 |
| woodster1 | alee: I think that might be cleaner overall…then the plugin is more self sufficient and isolated from barbican proper | 20:16 |
| redrobot | woodster1, i see... | 20:16 |
| alee_ | I'm not sure I understand why this is significantly more load on the db .. the change is just to add the secret earlier in the function | 20:16 |
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| jraim | alee_: I think one concern is what happens when the plugin's generation fails? | 20:16 |
| jraim | now we have to remove the secret | 20:17 |
| jraim | it would be nice to ensure the plugin behaves before barbican stores the data | 20:17 |
| woodster1 | the first call would create the record and cut the ID/UUID, a second call would then be needed to update the record after generation…so two transactions instead of one | 20:17 |
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| alee_ | woodster1, ok - I can generate a random string in the plugin for the client key id then. | 20:18 |
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| alee_ | and then we need not create the secret until later | 20:19 |
| redrobot | #agreed alee_ will update DRM plugin changes to generate a UUID instead of saving the secret before calling the plugin | 20:19 |
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| redrobot | cool, any other points on alee_ 's CR that we want to talk about? | 20:20 |
| alee_ | so then do we still want to pass the required generation parameters in some dto object? | 20:20 |
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| alee_ | or leave them as they are as separate parameters? | 20:21 |
| woodster1 | do you think more parameters are needed? | 20:21 |
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| alee_ | for generation currently no. | 20:22 |
| atiwari | I think dto wd be better | 20:22 |
| woodster1 | if we need several passed in, then a dto could make sense | 20:22 |
| atiwari | for future extension | 20:22 |
| alee_ | I agree with atiwari for future extension | 20:22 |
| alee_ | of course atiwari - I created the dto from the secret that was created. | 20:22 |
| alee_ | which is no longer being created .. | 20:23 |
| alee_ | (yet) | 20:23 |
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| atiwari | ok | 20:23 |
| woodster1 | we should know all the generation params prior to the generate call, so a new generate_dto might be ok, similar to that secret_dto? | 20:24 |
| alee_ | woodster1, I'm thinking also of the decrypt() case. At some point we are going to want to pass in parameters like a wrapping key tyhat is generated on the client | 20:24 |
| alee_ | exactly | 20:24 |
| alee_ | I think we probably need a generate_dto and decrypt_dto | 20:25 |
| woodster1 | dto's cleanly separate concerns and clean up params, so that sounds fine to me | 20:25 |
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| atiwari | how about use of kwargs ? | 20:25 |
| redrobot | atiwari kwargs instead of a DTO? | 20:27 |
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| atiwari | yes, just throwing another option | 20:27 |
| atiwari | but I am also ok with DTO | 20:27 |
| redrobot | atiwari I think it would give the plugin a bit more work | 20:27 |
| alee_ | atiwari, I think a dto makes things more defined. | 20:27 |
| atiwari | correct | 20:28 |
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| alee_ | just offhand - I'd vote for dto. | 20:28 |
| atiwari | me too with DTO | 20:28 |
| woodster1 | sounds good…I'd say give that a try then | 20:28 |
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| redrobot | #agreed we should use DTOs for create, generate, and decrypt | 20:29 |
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| redrobot | #info DTO = Data Transfer Object | 20:29 |
| alee_ | ok - any other concerns about my cr? | 20:29 |
| atiwari | can we move to next topic? | 20:30 |
| alee_ | I'll make the changes and resubmit tomorrow. | 20:30 |
| redrobot | sounds good | 20:30 |
| redrobot | let's move on to atiwari's plugin changes | 20:30 |
| atiwari | ok | 20:31 |
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| atiwari | wondering have you guys take a look? | 20:31 |
| redrobot | I think the first thing we should talk about is whether we want separate methods for symmetric/asymmetric calls? | 20:31 |
| atiwari | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82189/6 | 20:31 |
| redrobot | I think reaperhulk has a feedback on this one | 20:32 |
| atiwari | in my opinion yes, because return type is different | 20:32 |
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| atiwari | or ve can device a new generic DTO for return | 20:32 |
| malini | +1 different methods | 20:33 |
| atiwari | redrobot, reaperhulk's comment I tried to fix | 20:33 |
| atiwari | and waiting for more review on this | 20:33 |
| alee_ | I'd argue for separate methods because they are very different functionalities | 20:33 |
| rellerreller | +1 different methods | 20:33 |
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| alee_ | for instance, right now drm doesn't expose generating an asymmetric key | 20:33 |
| atiwari | alee_ are with different methods? | 20:34 |
| alee_ | (it will later .. but it doesn't now) | 20:34 |
| redrobot | I think that we could also argue that the plugin manager would orchestrate generating the different asymmetric parts, before packing it into a Container | 20:34 |
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| reaperhulk | redrobot, that's an interesting idea | 20:34 |
| reaperhulk | That part of the logic is probably identical across all plugins, so it might make sense to hoist it up | 20:35 |
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| alee_ | redrobot, not sure I understand what you're suggesting? | 20:35 |
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| atiwari | redrobot, I think for separation of concern we should use separate method with different return s | 20:35 |
| atiwari | and bind in container in upper layer | 20:35 |
| woodster1 | I'd definitely agree that the plugin should not be creating Containers, but rather the components of it to be put into a Container by the plugin manager later | 20:36 |
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| redrobot | alee_ currently, the plugin manager just calls generate with whatever params for symmetric. the idea would be that the plugin manager would call generate a few times with different params to generate the public key, private key, and possibly a passphrase. | 20:36 |
| atiwari | woodster1 +1 | 20:36 |
| atiwari | that is my plan | 20:36 |
| woodster1 | I think some of the concern here is that orders, SSL cert generation/management, containers, and asymmetric key gen have overlapping design concerns | 20:37 |
| atiwari | I think containers are just a envelop | 20:38 |
| woodster1 | the crypto plugin level is someone low level in nature right now. The order/container/ssl-cert flows seem higher level orchestration concepts. That's why a design session to discuss this would be very good to do. | 20:38 |
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| redrobot | agreed, I think this is going to require a design session during the Summit | 20:39 |
| atiwari | woodster1, as per our discussion at #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/barbican/+spec/api-orders-add-more-types | 20:39 |
| reaperhulk | sorry guys, gotta run for a bit. redrobot & woodster1 know more about the general design here than I do though so you're in good hands | 20:40 |
| atiwari | we thought that will be begin with symmetric and asymmetric | 20:40 |
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| alee_ | redrobot, I'm a little confused - can you generate a public key separate from the private key? | 20:40 |
| atiwari | alee_ no I think | 20:41 |
| redrobot | alee_ you could generate the private key from the secret key | 20:41 |
| atiwari | that is why it has to be atomic | 20:41 |
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| malini | no, private&public born at the same time | 20:41 |
| atiwari | malini +1 | 20:41 |
| alee_ | then I'm a little confused about the idea of calling generate to create the private key, then calling generate to generate the public key, then putting it all together .. | 20:42 |
| atiwari | me too, it has to be atomic calls | 20:42 |
| rellerreller | I'm confused by that as well | 20:42 |
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| redrobot | the public key can be derived from the private key. doing it all at once is probably more efficient, but I do like the idea of generate() only returning single encrypted datums | 20:43 |
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| malini | alee_, perhaps redrobot mis-wrote there, after private-public born, then certify the public aspect, perhaps attach a passphrase to the private to further protect it | 20:43 |
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| redrobot | it's a bummer reaperhulk left already, since he's our in-house crypto expert | 20:44 |
| malini | :-D | 20:44 |
| atiwari | redrobot I think he is ok with separate atomic methods | 20:44 |
| atiwari | as per lat week chat | 20:44 |
| rellerreller | Are there any other specs or libraries that generate public/private key pairs in two operations? | 20:44 |
| redrobot | rellerreller none that I'm aware of... I'm just brainstorming over here :) | 20:45 |
| rellerreller | It might be better for developers to have one method for assymetric bc that's what they're used to | 20:45 |
| redrobot | this would be just for the plugin_manager to plugin interaction | 20:45 |
| redrobot | rellerreller yeah, that's definitely a good argument. | 20:46 |
| atiwari | rellerreller +1 | 20:46 |
| alee_ | redrobot, I think you're trying to shoe horn what is essentially a single operation generating a public/private key PAIR -- into a single datum | 20:46 |
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| alee_ | it makes more sense to me for the plugin to simply return a tuple of the public, private keys | 20:46 |
| alee_ | and that probably means separate methods | 20:46 |
| atiwari | +1 that will be simple too | 20:46 |
| rellerreller | +1 | 20:47 |
| malini | malini +1 | 20:47 |
| alee_ | generateSymmetiric(), generateAsymmetric() | 20:47 |
| atiwari | I am ok with names | 20:47 |
| woodster1 | it seems a separate asymmetric method does make sense, returning a tuple perhaps that is then stored as a Container by the extention manager | 20:47 |
| alee_ | and the top layer can combine as needed | 20:47 |
| atiwari | yep | 20:48 |
| redrobot | I'm ok with that. | 20:48 |
| atiwari | agreed :) | 20:48 |
| atiwari | ? | 20:48 |
| malini | alee_ +1 | 20:48 |
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| malini | another advantage is with generateSymmetric() there is no aysnchronous stuff, the call response would be key, and key-id, and can be used promptly | 20:49 |
| redrobot | #agreed Asymmetric Keys should be generated in a new method generate_symmetric() | 20:49 |
| atiwari | OK, then I will redo these method | 20:50 |
| malini | redrobot -- typo there | 20:50 |
| atiwari | question, should I redo with DTO too? | 20:50 |
| atiwari | I think yes? | 20:50 |
| alee_ | I think yes | 20:50 |
| redrobot | atiwari keep an eye on alee_ 's changes. I think we'll want to reuse the DTOs from his CR | 20:50 |
| atiwari | ok | 20:51 |
| alee_ | atiwari, I should have my revised changes in by tommorow. | 20:51 |
| atiwari | sure | 20:51 |
| redrobot | ok, guys we're running out of time here, I don't think we have time to cover any more agenda points | 20:51 |
| redrobot | any last thoughts on Crypto Plugin changes before we call the meeting? | 20:51 |
| atiwari | I am OK | 20:52 |
| alee_ | has anyone had a chance to look at my follow on cr? | 20:52 |
| alee_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/85137/ | 20:52 |
| redrobot | malini do'h >_< | 20:52 |
| atiwari | not me, I will do | 20:52 |
| alee_ | I'm guessing not because it depends on the previous one. | 20:52 |
| alee_ | but I'd like to discuss that one once the first one goes in | 20:53 |
| redrobot | I haven't had a chance | 20:53 |
| * redrobot is way behind on reviews | 20:53 | |
| woodster1 | quick read of it looks good to me (after the dto changes in the dep CR of course) | 20:53 |
| alee_ | woodster1, cool | 20:54 |
| woodster1 | not sure about the jenkins fails | 20:54 |
| alee_ | lets put it on the agenda for next week then | 20:54 |
| alee_ | woodster1, yeah I'll fix those | 20:54 |
| woodster1 | I'm curious if tox locally fails too | 20:54 |
| woodster1 | oh yeah, unused imports, easy to fix | 20:55 |
| alee_ | woodster1, testing though will involve actually creating a drm | 20:55 |
| woodster1 | the dev stack fail is probably more tricky to diagnose, so we might need to assist with that one | 20:55 |
| redrobot | devstack gate was broken for everyone last week, so we may just need to re-kick that CR | 20:56 |
| alee_ | yup I'll rekick when I fix the unused imports | 20:56 |
| alee_ | (and change the dtos etc) | 20:56 |
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| redrobot | ok guys, we're out of time for this week. We'll revisit the other agenda items next week. In the meantime, try to get some reviews in when you can. | 20:57 |
| redrobot | thanks everyone! | 20:57 |
| atiwari | redrobot, there are more items in agenda can we talk in barbican room | 20:57 |
| atiwari | ? | 20:58 |
| woodster1 | wow that went by fast | 20:58 |
| redrobot | atiwari yeah, jump over to #openstack-barbican | 20:58 |
| atiwari | ok | 20:58 |
| redrobot | #endmeeting | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Apr 7 20:58:28 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/barbican/2014/barbican.2014-04-07-20.02.html | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/barbican/2014/barbican.2014-04-07-20.02.txt | 20:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/barbican/2014/barbican.2014-04-07-20.02.log.html | 20:58 |
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