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| markwash | looks like we have some glance folks around? | 19:00 |
|---|---|---|
| iccha_ | aye aye! | 19:00 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 19:00 |
| *** jbresnah has joined #openstack-meeting-alt | 19:00 | |
| iccha_ | o/ | 19:00 |
| jbresnah | wave | 19:00 |
| nikhil | ack | 19:00 |
| ameade | +1 | 19:00 |
| markwash | #startmeeting glance | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 10 19:01:00 2013 UTC. The chair is markwash. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: glance)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'glance' | 19:01 |
| markwash | So, I didn't really lay out the agenda in the wiki | 19:01 |
| markwash | but the rough idea from my perspective is: follow up on caching discussion, more summit topic discussion, and more blueprint triage | 19:02 |
| flaper87 | +1 | 19:02 |
| brianr-g1ne | +1 | 19:02 |
| markwash | but anybody else who has important topics feel free to throw them out now, we can work them in | 19:02 |
| ameade | i want more code reviews | 19:02 |
| markwash | ah, I've got a quick note on that | 19:03 |
| markwash | #topic review and bug squashing days | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "review and bug squashing days (Meeting topic: glance)" | 19:03 | |
| flaper87 | w00000t | 19:03 |
| markwash | last meeting flaper87 suggested we have bug squashing days | 19:03 |
| markwash | then privately made the suggestion that we ought to have review squashing as well | 19:04 |
| markwash | which struck me as even more critical, as it seems | 19:04 |
| *** brianr-g1ne is now known as rosmaita | 19:04 | |
| iccha_ | is there a glance openstack room? where we can all discuss and coordinate during these days? | 19:04 |
| markwash | I know I haven't been doing enough review lately :-( sorry folks | 19:04 |
| markwash | I don't believe so, but we could make one | 19:04 |
| flaper87 | openstack-glance | 19:04 |
| ameade | +1 on both types of squash | 19:04 |
| markwash | any thoughts on when we should have the first one? week after the summit? | 19:05 |
| ameade | i saw that last meeting the concern was that we dont have enough bugs | 19:05 |
| jbresnah | I agree with the review days for sure | 19:05 |
| flaper87 | that sounds ok, the week after the summit | 19:05 |
| ameade | so maybe we just have a "squash" day and do both? i dont want reviews to wait til squash days though | 19:05 |
| jbresnah | bug squash sounds good too, tho that is something that could end up being more async for people | 19:05 |
| flaper87 | the suggestion was to have them together | 19:06 |
| markwash | ameade: agreed, we shouldn't put them off until squash day | 19:06 |
| iccha_ | +1 that | 19:06 |
| markwash | yeah, one day for both as needed | 19:06 |
| flaper87 | starting with the one in worse shape | 19:06 |
| nikhil | +1 | 19:06 |
| markwash | #agreed have a shared review/bug squashing day during the week after the summit | 19:06 |
| ameade | would it be more effective to have constant reviews if we do the traditional core review days where a core is assigned to a day? | 19:07 |
| markwash | ameade: I think we should have constant reviews regardless of squashing days | 19:07 |
| markwash | ameade: and I hope we aren't at a point where we need review days like nova | 19:07 |
| ameade | markwash: yeah i dont think we are that bad | 19:07 |
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| ameade | i agree, lets just try out the squash days and if we need more than that we will revaluate | 19:08 |
| markwash | #action markwash schedule a squash day during the week after the summit | 19:08 |
| flaper87 | I think we should review daily and that review days should be used as a speed up on reviews and "shared reviews" day | 19:08 |
| markwash | ++ | 19:08 |
| ameade | +1 | 19:08 |
| nikhil | agree | 19:08 |
| iccha_ | +1 | 19:08 |
| nikhil | +1 | 19:08 |
| iccha_ | approved :p | 19:08 |
| markwash | any other thoughts on reviews? | 19:08 |
| markwash | #topic glance caching | 19:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "glance caching (Meeting topic: glance)" | 19:09 | |
| markwash | last week we talked about new approaches to managing cache | 19:09 |
| markwash | jbresnah has posted his ideas about future approaches to caching here https://tropicaldevel.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/free-cache/ | 19:10 |
| ameade | did we decide to not have a summit session on this? | 19:10 |
| markwash | I'm not sure that we decided, but one was not proposed | 19:11 |
| markwash | I do feel like we could work out a reasonable solution outside of the summit, however | 19:11 |
| * flaper87 wont be at the summit :( | 19:12 | |
| nikhil | so, this seems to be something that could be benefitial to discuss before exposing glance | 19:12 |
| nikhil | would help on some design decisions | 19:12 |
| nikhil | thoughts? | 19:12 |
| iccha_ | should caching not work almost the same way either glance is exposed or not? | 19:13 |
| jbresnah | I am not sure what exposed means here exactly... | 19:13 |
| nikhil | from the previous meeting logs, looks like locations is something discussed | 19:14 |
| iccha_ | jbresnah: it refers to being able to use glance directly | 19:14 |
| iccha_ | as an independent service | 19:14 |
| nikhil | my bad, it mean glance as a public deployment | 19:14 |
| jbresnah | oh right, sorry i forgot that in some places it is not public, thanks. | 19:14 |
| jbresnah | i think that multiple locations is a big part of the cache | 19:14 |
| jbresnah | nikhil: so i agree locations is something to discuss | 19:15 |
| nikhil | jbresnah: on the similar note | 19:15 |
| nikhil | if we decide on multiple locations and related glance cache | 19:15 |
| markwash | one thing I would note, is that with jbresnah's proposal, can we still keep the local cached copies urls hidden from regular users? if not I worry about exposing individual nodes to targeted dos attacks | 19:16 |
| jbresnah | i think you can | 19:16 |
| iccha_ | we could have additional way to indicate provate urls maybe? | 19:16 |
| jbresnah | in one sense glance api becomes another user of the relica catalog | 19:16 |
| flaper87 | I think it is important to be able to scale out cache instances | 19:16 |
| markwash | cool, wanted to make sure that wasn't antithetical | 19:16 |
| jbresnah | so, if a user goes to download an image from glance, glance looks at the catalog and chooses the best location | 19:17 |
| jbresnah | then streams it | 19:17 |
| markwash | flaper87: yes, in general you had other ideas for how we might approach caching | 19:17 |
| jbresnah | if the locations are exposed to an end user, then can make that decisions | 19:17 |
| markwash | flaper87: any code or docs for us to look at? | 19:17 |
| jbresnah | if not glance can make it internally and then stream it | 19:17 |
| jbresnah | i agree that horizontal scalability is crucial | 19:18 |
| jbresnah | i hope i have not spoken against that | 19:18 |
| flaper87 | markwash: I was writing it and then I thought that it should exist along the lines of what jbresnah proposed. The idea would be to use the multi-location implementation for caches so that cached images would be just a new location for an existing image but under a dedicated API. | 19:18 |
| nikhil | jbresnah: guess not, rather proved a thought on how to achieve this | 19:19 |
| flaper87 | that will allow us to just disable glance-api paths and have instances dedicated just for caches | 19:19 |
| nikhil | s/proved/provoked/ | 19:19 |
| jbresnah | the original problem was here was to deal with a cache management service | 19:19 |
| jbresnah | clearing the cache, listing images in it etc | 19:19 |
| jbresnah | i think that all of the problems there will also be in maintaining the consistency of multiple locations | 19:20 |
| jbresnah | so we should solve the multiple locations issue and accept the cache issue as a lesser included | 19:20 |
| nikhil | i guess that is a challenge by itself | 19:20 |
| markwash | that is interesting, and we do need some motivation for the multiple locations api | 19:21 |
| nikhil | that's the reason why i wished to include public glance in this discussion | 19:21 |
| nikhil | basically, maintaining consistency would be an issue | 19:21 |
| markwash | I don't know about everybody else, but I'd like a little more time to think on this, and we can certainly discuss it more over libations at the summit (those who can attend) | 19:22 |
| nikhil | markwash: we'r hoping to have the same uuid for copied/cache image to other location | 19:22 |
| iccha_ | jbresnah: do you envision cache management being a sepaarte servoce? | 19:22 |
| ameade | +1 libations | 19:22 |
| nikhil | markwash: sure | 19:22 |
| jbresnah | +1 libations | 19:22 |
| jbresnah | iccha_: perhaps | 19:23 |
| jbresnah | or a tool | 19:23 |
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| jbresnah | it gets complicated because issues come up like: Does the user who registered the replicated image deligate delete rights to the service | 19:23 |
| * markwash searches for an action item. . . | 19:23 | |
| jbresnah | etc | 19:23 |
| markwash | hmm, interesting | 19:23 |
| jbresnah | there are some other interesting bits that come out of it too that we can discuss when appropriate | 19:24 |
| jbresnah | for example: nova-compute could register a local replica instead of maintaining its own cache | 19:24 |
| jbresnah | tho, that could be out of scope also | 19:24 |
| jbresnah | just a use case example really | 19:24 |
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| nikhil | jbresnah: very interesting | 19:24 |
| jbresnah | my main point is this: | 19:24 |
| nikhil | may be a pluggable, though | 19:25 |
| jbresnah | multiple-locations makes glance a replica service | 19:25 |
| jbresnah | a copy on a local disk is just another replica | 19:25 |
| jbresnah | special case code will cause complications | 19:25 |
| jbresnah | nod pluggable | 19:25 |
| markwash | very thought provoking | 19:25 |
| markwash | hmm | 19:26 |
| ameade | +1 to an image living anywhere just being another location | 19:26 |
| iccha_ | do we see this tying into image cloning? | 19:26 |
| nikhil | jbresnah: don't wanna go off topic, though one thing that stikes me is local copy is not at a known state and a snapshot on that is a different image (looks like deeper issue, may be?) | 19:26 |
| flaper87 | iccha_: I kind of think it like that | 19:26 |
| jbresnah | nikhil: i may not follow, but if the checksum changes it is no longer a replica | 19:27 |
| nikhil | kk | 19:27 |
| markwash | I'm a little worried about scope creep here | 19:27 |
| nikhil | may be i on a different thought train :) | 19:28 |
| flaper87 | again, I think it is important to be able to scale that out and being able to identify which images are indeed a cached image and which not. | 19:28 |
| ameade | images shouldnt go stale anyways, they dont change? | 19:28 |
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| *** vipul|away is now known as vipul | 19:28 | |
| jbresnah | the issue about datasets changing is exactly why we will need some sort of consistency management with multiple locations | 19:29 |
| jbresnah | which feeds into my point about that feature subsuming cache management | 19:29 |
| jbresnah | i think for the purpose of this conversation the replicas are blogs of data, not images | 19:30 |
| jbresnah | tho i could definitely be missing critical info there | 19:30 |
| flaper87 | another thing that we might also want to consider is being able to have some auto-caching algorithms | 19:30 |
| markwash | so for next steps here | 19:31 |
| jbresnah | flaper87: perhaps that is true, but i think that is a future feature wrt the conversation here | 19:31 |
| jbresnah | flaper87: but a good feature nonetheless | 19:31 |
| nikhil | +1 | 19:31 |
| markwash | I here a lot of interesting ideas, but maybe we need someone to synthesize these into some smaller concrete proposals for next steps? | 19:31 |
| markwash | *ehar | 19:31 |
| markwash | *hear | 19:31 |
| markwash | there we go | 19:31 |
| jbresnah | i think the first step is to see the current multiple-locations effort through | 19:32 |
| ameade | +1 | 19:32 |
| jbresnah | and i would suggest that we stall the cache effort until then | 19:32 |
| nikhil | +1 | 19:32 |
| jbresnah | see exactly what is needed at the end of that | 19:32 |
| flaper87 | +1, once that's done we could talk about how to replicate it | 19:32 |
| markwash | sounds good | 19:32 |
| nikhil | markwash: besides the proposed topic for glance at the summit, whay else would you like to discuss? | 19:33 |
| nikhil | *topics | 19:33 |
| markwash | lets' leave caching off here, and move on to glance design summit topics | 19:33 |
| jbresnah | sounds good | 19:33 |
| iccha_ | sounds good | 19:33 |
| markwash | all I have left is summit topics in general (which is probably a big talk) and then just blueprint triage | 19:33 |
| iccha_ | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Havana/Etherpads is the wiki page for etherpads for summit sessions | 19:34 |
| markwash | but I'd be happy to leave off blueprint triage for other topics of interest | 19:34 |
| markwash | #topic glance summit sessions | 19:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "glance summit sessions (Meeting topic: glance)" | 19:34 | |
| markwash | 3 sessions have been selected and scheduled so far | 19:34 |
| markwash | #link http://openstacksummitapril2013.sched.org/overview/type/design+summit/Glance#.UWWzb6tg_58 | 19:34 |
| markwash | that leaves 2 sessions left to schedule | 19:35 |
| markwash | and one of the topics we have to hit relates to http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/47 | 19:35 |
| iccha_ | i see only 2 sessions unreviewed | 19:35 |
| markwash | but possibly more generally just image upload/download performance | 19:35 |
| markwash | and nova boot performance | 19:36 |
| markwash | improving image transfer performance is a big topic, so I'm wondering 1) should it be split into two? 2) does anyone have any interest in rolling db migrations? | 19:36 |
| rosmaita | markwash: we definitely are interested in rolling db migrations | 19:37 |
| iccha_ | +1 | 19:37 |
| nikhil | markwash: we'r also interested in interoperability/inter hypervisor compatibility as well | 19:37 |
| ameade | lets just unconference everything :) | 19:37 |
| nikhil | +1 | 19:37 |
| markwash | so splitting the performance topic into two sessions would come at some cost | 19:37 |
| markwash | I have a summit pitch about performance that I'd love to make now | 19:38 |
| jbresnah | cool | 19:39 |
| jbresnah | i would like to hear that pitch | 19:39 |
| rosmaita | we are all ears | 19:39 |
| flaper87 | go go go | 19:39 |
| markwash | take this as a straw man if you like | 19:39 |
| markwash | but I propose that Glance should not be worried about performance | 19:39 |
| markwash | at least not directly | 19:39 |
| markwash | Glance should concern itself with exposing the information that other performance-oriented clients need in order to work efficiently | 19:40 |
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| ameade | +1 | 19:40 |
| jbresnah | that sounds right to me | 19:40 |
| flaper87 | +1 | 19:40 |
| markwash | most of the proposals that I've seen say: | 19:40 |
| markwash | If we make images X, then we can have nova do Y, which is faster | 19:40 |
| markwash | well, never mind that last train of thought. . not sure where it was going to derail | 19:41 |
| ameade | but dont forget about glance being a 1st class API | 19:41 |
| nikhil | +1 | 19:41 |
| ameade | we still need glance to do transfers at some level right? | 19:41 |
| rosmaita | and i believe caching is done for performance improvements? | 19:42 |
| nikhil | transfers and sync too | 19:42 |
| markwash | This behavior feels kind of like legacy compatibility to me | 19:43 |
| jbresnah | I would like to couple resource management with transfer performance | 19:43 |
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| jbresnah | when consoidering going super fast you have to consider resource usage | 19:43 |
| jbresnah | and how that effects others | 19:43 |
| jbresnah | also i would like to add that as glance stands right now it cannot make proper decisions about either | 19:44 |
| jbresnah | because it is only on 1 side of the transfer | 19:44 |
| markwash | jbresnah: but if glance isn't concerning itself with those things, the responsibility for managing resource usage would be elsewhere. . glance isn't any side of the transfer | 19:44 |
| jbresnah | markwash: oh yeah +1 that | 19:44 |
| flaper87 | I think glance should be more worried about knowing more from images than knowing more about improving performances | 19:45 |
| ameade | I'd really like to see glance taken out of actual transfers and maybe just negotiate transfers? | 19:45 |
| iccha_ | it boils down to what is the purpose of glance and what we want it to be once is it is public | 19:45 |
| markwash | yeah | 19:45 |
| markwash | iccha_: +1 | 19:46 |
| markwash | so glance didn't originally exist alongside nova | 19:46 |
| nikhil | looks like everyone wants to decouple the glance and image data management service | 19:46 |
| jbresnah | I love this convoersation so far | 19:46 |
| markwash | it was created because public clouds didn't want people to be able to boot just anything, since all the broken nova boots would cause a support nightmare | 19:46 |
| markwash | it was also created as a central place to manage image data, however, since swift isn't really up to the challenge | 19:47 |
| markwash | I think we should figure out a way to formally adopt the former purpose as something like a mission statement | 19:47 |
| *** vipul|away is now known as vipul | 19:48 | |
| * markwash is really out on a limb here | 19:48 | |
| flaper87 | I agree | 19:48 |
| jbresnah | i am with you | 19:48 |
| jbresnah | in a past life i worked on grid computing.... i will save the details for when beer is near by... | 19:48 |
| markwash | and help out other projects so that we can move away from the latter purpose | 19:48 |
| jbresnah | but to me it makes sense to have replica management and data transfer as separate things | 19:48 |
| jbresnah | tho i do understand the convenience of coupling them as well | 19:49 |
| markwash | jbresnah: I think it makes sense to keep track of different replicas, yes, assuming it is useful to keep multiple replicas of the same thing | 19:49 |
| markwash | which seems likely | 19:49 |
| markwash | wow, I've gotten kind of far from what I meant to do | 19:50 |
| jbresnah | markwash: replica might be too strong for me to be using, perhaps 'registry' is better | 19:50 |
| iccha_ | Yeah its a different thing maintaining info about replicas vs transfering them or making the replicas | 19:50 |
| ameade | lets not get into redefining Glance maybe? | 19:50 |
| markwash | going back to the summit topic, I guess the default option is to make a "booting and snapshotting, download and upload performance" session | 19:50 |
| markwash | and approve the db rolling upgrades session | 19:51 |
| iccha_ | sounds good | 19:51 |
| ameade | +1 | 19:51 |
| iccha_ | +1 | 19:51 |
| flaper87 | +1 | 19:51 |
| markwash | jbresnah: one session is not a lot of time | 19:51 |
| jbresnah | nod, i will try not to talk too much | 19:51 |
| markwash | jbresnah: lol, not what I was trying to suggest :-) | 19:52 |
| iccha_ | we can try doing a glance grab a beer/dinner/coffee thing during the summit too | 19:52 |
| jbresnah | heh | 19:52 |
| jbresnah | most of my thinking is on my blog (i think) | 19:52 |
| ameade | s/beer/beers/ | 19:52 |
| markwash | there are also some folks who will want to talk about volumes as images | 19:52 |
| iccha_ | ah yeah thats always been there | 19:52 |
| ameade | markwash: can we ignore them? | 19:52 |
| ameade | lol | 19:52 |
| jbresnah | heh | 19:52 |
| flaper87 | :P | 19:53 |
| markwash | well, we can, but perhaps at our peril | 19:53 |
| jbresnah | i was also thinking of proposing a 'unconference' topic on an image transfer sercice | 19:53 |
| jbresnah | could get time that way i suppose | 19:53 |
| iccha_ | yeah unconferences are a good way to do that | 19:53 |
| markwash | zhiyan and IBM have an amazingly fast provisioning system they have built on top of volume-like abstractions, and want to expose that in openstack | 19:53 |
| jbresnah | this is my first summit tho, so i may not have the culture quite right | 19:53 |
| iccha_ | yeah i think i see a glance-cinder-driver blueprint too | 19:54 |
| jbresnah | markwash: can you point me at more details on that? | 19:54 |
| markwash | jbresnah: I will have to find a link | 19:55 |
| rosmaita | well, having glance not transfer any image data would definitely improve its performance | 19:55 |
| * nikhil is having a hard time finding out action item for this except for a philosophical discussion with glance folks | 19:55 | |
| nikhil | deadlock? | 19:55 |
| markwash | rosmaita: :-) | 19:55 |
| ameade | yeah i'm actually pretty excited about boot from volumes and stuff | 19:55 |
| markwash | as far as action items, I'm pretty sure the boot-from-volume stuff needs session time | 19:55 |
| flaper87 | will all this be recorded, written, G+ ? | 19:56 |
| markwash | so I'll check the other topics to see if its sufficiently covered | 19:56 |
| flaper87 | I'd love to participate somehow and catch up with everything that happens at the summit | 19:56 |
| markwash | and if not I'd like to boot the rolling db upgrades to an unconference | 19:56 |
| iccha_ | flaper87: we will take notes | 19:56 |
| flaper87 | iccha_: :D thank you so much! | 19:56 |
| nikhil | flaper87: they would be live streaming these sessions as well, i hope | 19:57 |
| ameade | flaper87: I know they said they weren't gonna stream sessions but maybe enough people were unhappy about that and they changed their minds | 19:57 |
| markwash | #action markwash finish scheduling the summit sessions asap | 19:57 |
| iccha_ | flaper87: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Havana/Etherpads has etherpad links for summit sessions | 19:57 |
| markwash | #topic open discussion | 19:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: glance)" | 19:57 | |
| markwash | sorry I wandered so far afield today folks | 19:57 |
| jbresnah | i enjoyed it :-) | 19:58 |
| ameade | markwash: just pretend that's what you meant to do :P | 19:58 |
| flaper87 | ahhahaa | 19:58 |
| markwash | lol | 19:58 |
| ameade | i'm really hyped for the summit | 19:58 |
| ameade | gonna be a doosey | 19:58 |
| iccha_ | i am glad we re having glance meetings :) and we all should try hanging out in the openstack-glance channel flaper87 mentioned | 19:58 |
| markwash | flaper87: I'll make sure we keep use the etherpads as much as possible during the summit | 19:58 |
| nikhil | +1 | 19:59 |
| flaper87 | markwash: thank you, I'm really sad I wont be there! :( | 19:59 |
| flaper87 | Notes will be really useful for catching up | 19:59 |
| flaper87 | and commenting | 20:00 |
| markwash | there was some mention of irc being used during the meetings | 20:00 |
| markwash | not sure how well that would work, but if anyone has any ideas we could give it a try | 20:00 |
| ameade | we could always google hangout | 20:00 |
| markwash | the problem with AV solutions is that the A always sucks | 20:00 |
| ameade | we appear to be out of time... | 20:01 |
| markwash | indeed | 20:01 |
| markwash | #endmeeting | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings (alternate) || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 20:01 | |
| flaper87 | awesome meeting guys | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 10 20:01:18 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2013/glance.2013-04-10-19.01.html | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2013/glance.2013-04-10-19.01.txt | 20:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2013/glance.2013-04-10-19.01.log.html | 20:01 |
| nikhil | +1 | 20:01 |
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| markwash | thanks everybody | 20:02 |
| jbresnah | thank you! | 20:02 |
| flaper87 | cheers! | 20:02 |
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