Thursday, 2016-10-06

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tonybCan someone take a quick look at: http://logs.openstack.org/90/381890/3/gate/gate-cross-keystone-python27-db-ubuntu-xenial/b6d48e7/console.html#_2016-10-05_22_37_43_851778 and tell me if it look slike a false positive to them?01:04
tonybit's a requirements (consstraints) chnage but not one used in keystone so I'm assuming it is a false positive but I'd like a seconf opinion bfore I 'recheck' it01:05
tonybHmm maybe not the only hits in logstash are for this review ...01:08
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trananhkmastevemar, step 9 in guideline of upgrading without downtime: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/keystone/upgrading.html#upgrading-without-downtime -- "Upgrade all keystone nodes to the next release, and restart them one at a time"01:44
trananhkmastevemar, if all nodes down, how can it be 'without downtime'?01:44
trananhkmastevemar, should we update this?01:45
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/keystonemiddleware: Updated from global requirements  https://review.openstack.org/37882903:27
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r1chardj0n3sohai folks - I need to do some dev/testing in Horizon against a federated keystone, and would like your advice on the absolutely easiest possible way I could set that up - preferably on a single box03:49
r1chardj0n3sthis isn't for any kind of deployment, it's purely for dev and testing03:50
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bretonmorning, keystone05:51
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dstanekr1chardj0n3s: i have an ansible role that i use to set a testshib test11:02
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r1chardj0n3sdstanek: please tell me more (though I'm actually about to go to bed :-)11:23
dstanekr1chardj0n3s: i was planning on pushing anyway. i can make it a priority to get done this morning. i just have to get the kids off to school11:25
dstaneki have a role 'keystone-sp' that is pretty simple and only used a handful of optional vars11:26
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r1chardj0n3sdstanek: simple sounds awesome :-D11:26
dstanekit is mostly hard coded at this point to just work with testshib although i have been tweaking it to work with other IdPs so i can test single logout11:27
dstaneki also have a 'devstack' role that fires up devstack and a playbook that combines the two11:27
r1chardj0n3sdstanek: I have literally no idea what testshib is :-)11:28
r1chardj0n3sbut I do know "devstack" and "IdP" and "hard coded" and other words and phrases you use11:28
r1chardj0n3s:-)11:28
dstanektestshib is a public IdP running the shibboleth software. it is useful for testing service providers11:28
dstanekr1chardj0n3s: :-)11:28
dstanekwhat do you need to use as an IdP? or does it not really matter for your purpose?11:29
r1chardj0n3sah, excellent! I was greatly afeared of the shibboleth "documentation" today11:29
r1chardj0n3sI really don't care what is used, as long as Horizon thinks keystone is federated :-)11:29
r1chardj0n3sI need to sort out some issues in our user interface that don't allow federated users to perform some actions11:30
r1chardj0n3sand the only way I can be certain of fixes is to reproduce the original issues11:30
dstanekr1chardj0n3s: nice, that's what i was working on yesterday. specifically domain admins11:30
r1chardj0n3syep, that sounds familiar11:30
dstanekby the time you wake up i'll have some stuff for you to generate the environment11:31
r1chardj0n3sthat's awesome, thanks!11:31
dstaneknp. i'll send you an email when it's done11:32
dstanekit's tested on U16.04 and F2411:32
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bjolomorning11:33
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dstanekbjolo: good morning11:33
bjoloim trying to setup keystone v3 with the policy.v3cloudsample.json file11:35
bjolobut i dont know if it is working correctly (one indicator is that i dont get the domains tab visible in horizon)11:35
bjolois there a way i can test what type of token i get from keystone?11:36
bjoloi.e. can i prove that from a keystone perspective, i am cloud_admin?11:36
bjolomy installation is a fresh openstack-kolla newton11:37
bjoloand a devstack11:37
bjoloboth behave the same11:37
bjolohttp://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/domain-support-horizon-here11:37
dstanekbjolo: i finished the day yesterday confused on how it could actually work. at this point i can't get it to work either11:37
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dstanekbjolo: one thing you need to do is put your policy in horizon's conf directory too11:38
bjoloi have done that11:38
bjolosee the symantec blogg. need a special version of policy.json file since horizon does not support the default one11:39
bjolodstanek, so you can confirm that it is not working for you either?11:39
dstanekbjolo: i moved this to the horizon channel11:39
bjolohave done that11:40
bjolobut i kinda need to prove that keystone works first11:40
bjoloso back to my original question11:40
bjolohow can i verify/validate that i am cloud_admin?11:40
dstanekbjolo: do something that requires you to be a cloud admin11:42
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openstackgerritAlexander Makarov proposed openstack/keystone: Verbose 401/403 debug responses  https://review.openstack.org/37243312:56
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stevemaro/13:02
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bretonnewton has just been released13:16
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dstanekmorning13:29
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cnfohai13:30
lbragstadjo/13:32
cnfanyone know why i'd get "ServiceCatalogException: Invalid service catalog service: object-store" in horizon logs?13:32
dstanekcnf: is that a horizon exception?13:42
cnfdstanek yes13:44
lbragstadhere is an easy review for folks if anyone has time to review - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/382453/13:45
lbragstad^ closes a bug13:45
cnfdstanek it's gone now, but i am uncertain what I changed?13:46
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cnfdstanek http://paste.openstack.org/show/584678/ is the full traceback, if you want13:47
amakarovlbragstad, please review mine https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372433/ if I addressed your comments properly?13:48
dstanekcnf: that appears to be a horizon thing13:49
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* cnf hangs his head13:56
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knikollao/14:27
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cnfdoes keystone still support v2 in mikata, or is that disabled?15:00
dstanekcnf: still supported, but deprecated I believe15:00
cnfhmm15:00
cnfthen cyberduck is doing stupid things15:00
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cnfit still uses V2, and keystone doesn't seem to be accepting it15:01
amakarovlbragstad, if I call _LW(msg), where msg = "string %s" % "injected" what will be i18n'ed?15:04
dstanekcnf: what do you mean by accept?15:09
dstanekcnf: is the v2 api enabled?15:10
cnfuhm, good question, how do you enable it?15:10
cnfor disable it15:10
lbragstadamakarov prior to your patch - those log statements were LOG.warning(_LW('Some warning message')) - right?15:11
lbragstadAll i'm saying is that if we are doing a _LW before logging the message - we should continue that pattern with your patch15:11
dstanekamakarov: you want to do _LW('string %s") % "injected"15:11
dstanek15:12
lbragstaddstanek thanks15:12
lbragstadamakarov dstanek knows everything there is to know about logging/internationization/string injection ;)15:12
amakarovlbragstad, dstanek thanks for insight )15:14
dstanekamakarov: yw15:16
dstanekif you need the injected string translated it is possible if it's a constant15:17
amakarovdstanek, that's the core of my question :)15:17
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dstanekamakarov: do you have a sample somewhere?15:18
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amakarovdstanek, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372433/9/keystone/token/controllers.py15:19
dstanekamakarov: those are just IDs. there is nothing to translate15:20
dstanekamakarov: the translation is static and done ahead of time. it's not dymamic. the only part that is dynamic is picking the translated string *if* it is available15:21
dstanekamakarov: this is how you'd do it if you had constants: http://paste.openstack.org/raw/584706/15:21
amakarovdstanek, yes, I think it's obvious: how can one create translation files for something that WILL be defined in runtime?15:22
dstanekexactly. so what exactly is your question?15:23
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amakarovdstanek, I wanted to clarify what lbragstad ment in his comment15:25
amakarovlbragstad, about this comment: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372433/9/keystone/v2_crud/user_crud.py15:26
lbragstadamakarov yep15:26
amakarovI agree it may be a breach, though what do you think about fixing in in another patch?15:27
amakarovthis one pursue it's purpose15:27
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lbragstadamakarov previously - we would just raise an Unauthorized exception without a specific message - now we are providing a message as well as whatever assertion error was excepted.15:29
amakarovlbragstad, otoh, creating a vulnerability to solve it in the future causes some doubts...15:29
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amakarovlbragstad, yep15:29
lbragstadThe way the message is worded makes it seem like the new password has something wrong with it15:29
lbragstadand by the series of events - the new password isn't even checked yet15:30
lbragstadso it would only be an issue with the current password15:30
amakarovlbragstad, so it's just about the form of the message - not about the information we provide to a potential attacker?15:30
openstackgerritMerged openstack/keystone: Default the resource backend to SQL  https://review.openstack.org/38245315:31
lbragstadamakarov well - that's something to think about too15:31
lbragstadin that case - if the authentication with the current password fails, a 401 unauthorized makes sense15:31
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amakarovwell, are you agree on sending "Password change failed" for now? Without details?15:34
amakarovlbragstad, ^15:34
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lbragstadamakarov well - the password change failed but not because of the new password15:35
lbragstadthat's the part that is confusing15:35
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amakarovlbragstad, attacker can analyse the code and understand the reason anyway15:36
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dstanekcnf: there would be /v2.0 entries in the paste.ini15:37
lbragstadamakarov i'm thinking about user experience. previously if the current password failed we didn't emit any message about "password change" failing - we just emitted a 401. Now we are going to emit a "password change" failed message which could lead a user to think the request failed because of the new password they used, when that wasn't the case at all15:38
amakarovlbragstad, I suggest sending something similar to "v2 password change failed due to rejected authentication"15:38
lbragstadamakarov yeah - that would be better15:38
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cnfdstanek yeah, they seem to be there15:39
dstanekcnf: what's the issue you are having?15:40
amakarovlbragstad, ookay - now to fight pep8 :)15:40
lbragstadamakarov perfect15:40
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amakarovdstanek, how to resolve "H701  Empty localization string" ?15:41
amakarovI'm using _LW(msg) syntax15:42
cnfdstanek can't make cyberduck work on v2 (which is what it uses)15:42
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amakaroviirc it's your hack in the tests that raises it?15:42
openstackgerritLance Bragstad proposed openstack/keystone: Default the assignment backend to SQL  https://review.openstack.org/38242815:42
dstanekH701 is not my error message15:43
dstanekwhat is msg and why are you not using a constant?15:43
lbragstadstevemar rodrigods had to resolve an import that snuck out from under me - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/382428/15:43
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amakarovdstanek, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/372433/9/keystone/common/request.py15:43
amakarovsee first lbragstad's comment15:44
amakarovdstanek, I want to avoid # noqa it possible15:45
amakarov*if15:45
dstanekamakarov: i don't think _(var) actually works. i think it has to be a constant15:46
dstanekerrr...literal in this case15:46
amakarovlbragstad, can you suggest something about this? ^^15:46
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dstanekamakarov: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/oslo.i18n/guidelines.html#using-a-marker-function15:47
dstanekyou need to use a literal string15:47
amakarovdstanek, ok, got it. lbragstad are you ok with literals?15:48
dstanekamakarov: i'd just keep it that way. create the 'msg' var and use it later15:49
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amakarovdstanek, like msg = _LW("whatever") ?15:49
dstanekamakarov: yes. the thing in _() has to be a literal, but the var can be used anywhere15:50
amakarovdstanek, the problem is that the same message is translated with _() and _LW()15:51
amakarovso I HAVE to repeat the literal15:51
dstaneki think the way it works is that a script parses the Python code looking for strings inside of the hints. then those are shipped to translators. the script doesn't try to evaluate the code to figure out if the thing passed into the hints is actually a static string.15:51
amakarovdstanek, makes sense15:51
dstanekamakarov: no, use the same one. the one that is wrapped in _()15:52
amakarovdstanek, so be it15:52
dstanekamakarov: anything in _() will be translated. the others are prioritized and may not be translated15:52
dstanekfor example the things a user sees should be _(), but logs should be _L?(). if they don't have time to translate all the warnings for log files that's not as big of a deal15:53
dstanekamakarov: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/oslo.i18n/guidelines.html#choosing-a-marker-function15:53
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stevemarnewton is out the door :)16:02
stevemarthanks everyone for helping to make a great release16:02
amakarovstevemar, so keystone is great again? ;)16:03
stevemaramakarov: i wouldn't go so far as to say that16:03
stevemaramakarov: my goal is always: make keystone less bad16:03
amakarovstevemar, it there a list of bad things in keystone? launchpad bugs?16:04
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nishaYadavo/16:05
stevemaramakarov: i was mostly trying to be funny :P16:05
stevemaramakarov: but i'm working on a list of things i think we should have16:05
amakarovstevemar, me too :)16:05
knikollayay for newton!16:08
openstackgerritAlexander Makarov proposed openstack/keystone: Verbose 401/403 debug responses  https://review.openstack.org/37243316:12
amakarovlbragstad, dstanek ^^16:12
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stevemardolphm: if you have a few minutes there are 2 mitaka patches that can be approved: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/keystone+branch:stable/mitaka17:37
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openstackgerritRon De Rose proposed openstack/keystone: Remove driver version from docs  https://review.openstack.org/38316317:44
openstackgerritMerged openstack/keystone: Default the assignment backend to SQL  https://review.openstack.org/38242817:50
openstackgerritRon De Rose proposed openstack/keystone: Remove driver version from identity backend test names  https://review.openstack.org/38316617:53
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morganstevemar: +3 on  both of those18:06
stevemarmorgan: thanks! :)18:06
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openstackgerritDeepak proposed openstack/keystonemiddleware: Changed the home-page link  https://review.openstack.org/38318318:10
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openstackgerritDeepak proposed openstack/keystone-specs: Changed the home-page link  https://review.openstack.org/38319518:23
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mfischstevemar: are there any docs on the password expiry stuff in newton?18:25
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mfischlike how to enable it, manage it, figure out who's going to expire in the next 7 days etc18:26
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mfischdoes any tooling know how to use it yet? osc?18:28
openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/keystone: Enable release notes translation  https://review.openstack.org/38322318:28
openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/keystoneauth: Enable release notes translation  https://review.openstack.org/38322418:28
openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/keystonemiddleware: Enable release notes translation  https://review.openstack.org/38322518:28
openstackgerritMerged openstack/python-keystoneclient: Updated from global requirements  https://review.openstack.org/38313418:30
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mfischI think cache_on_issue should default to True18:38
mfischif token caching is enabled why wouldn't you want that18:38
mfischI'm going to change that so I can vote in April!18:40
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dolphmmfisch: +1018:49
mfischhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/383333/18:49
mfischdont know why it didnt show up here18:49
mfischlet me know if it needs more changes18:50
mfischthat should probably land in O at this point18:50
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stevemarmfisch: catching up on your rambles18:50
mfischlol18:51
dolphmmfisch's soliloquy hour18:51
mfischjust enjoy talking to myself18:51
lbragstadlol18:51
stevemarmfisch: so we were undecided on enabling token caching to true by default18:51
stevemarwe didn't have solid performance numbers we could rely on18:52
mfischnot token caching18:52
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mfischcache_on_issue18:52
stevemarright, caching token *on issue*18:52
stevemarwe (mostly i) just wanted it to bake a little longer18:52
mfischI mean if you turn token caching on, then that should just be on18:52
mfischstevemar: so default on for O?18:52
dolphmcache all the things everywhere all the time18:52
mfischcaching itself should probably default true but thats more complex18:53
stevemarmfisch: if you report back with positive feedback, sure18:53
mfischit introduces a dep on memcache18:53
mfischk18:53
mfischstevemar: poking around on N in my free time18:53
mfischwe still dont have M out to the world thanks to the cinder quota bug18:53
lbragstaddolphm just return 200 OK18:53
stevemarmfisch: also, for your question about PCI (password expiry stuff), the docs are in progress: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/374422/718:54
stevemarmfisch: i've been too slow to review them18:54
mfischhow would the user get notified that their password was expiring?18:55
mfischwe can't do a windows NT login pop-up18:55
dolphmmfisch: we're working with horizon first cc- rderose18:55
mfischk18:56
mfischwe have a horizon monkey here and I will ping him18:56
mfischI hope it looks like this http://bit.ly/2dOwlFb18:56
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mfischducttape_: the new PCI password stuff for keystone will be fronted by horizon to warn on password expiry etc18:57
mfischrderose is working on it18:57
dolphmmfisch: that would be perfect18:57
mfischducttape_: this is the UI I want http://bit.ly/2dOwlFb18:57
dolphmmfisch: rather, your password is going to expire in X days, <here's a password change form>18:57
rderosemfisch: me too :)18:57
* ducttape_ haz a sad18:57
rderosemfisch: unfortunately, it's just an alert message18:58
rderosemfisch dolphm: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/369652/18:58
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mfischwhat happens with ldap users I wonder18:58
rderosemfisch: password expires in only supported by the sql backend for identity18:59
ducttape_is you need help with that patch lemme know rderose18:59
rderosemfisch: so password_expires_at would be None for ldap18:59
rderoseducttape: not my patch, see Juan Pablo lopez Gutierrez18:59
rderosehe's the owner on the horizon side19:00
stevemarrderose: the thinking is that you'll be alerted by your LDAP system anyway to change your password19:00
rderosestevemar: yeah19:00
rderoseexactly19:00
mfischyes19:00
mfischI dont want to get in between AD and users19:00
mfischlet AD deal with that19:00
rderoseagree19:00
mfischstevemar: you guys fixed more than 3 bugs in newton19:01
mfischare the others not Reno worthy?19:02
gsilvisQuestion about federation-related stuff:  Did something about shibboleth on centos break in the last few months?  Everyone suggests using the same opensuse repo, but there's now missing dependencies (an old version of openssl)19:02
dolphmmaybe only 3 bugs that we couldn't fix in mitaka?19:02
stevemarmfisch: there are probably some notes missing19:02
dolphmhopefully we don't have release notes for bugs we introduced AND fixed in the newton dev cycle19:02
mfischhah19:02
mfischtrue19:02
stevemarsome are not reno worthy for sure19:03
stevemarlike ... 1505374Unit tests failing with oslo.policy 0.12.019:03
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dolphmif that's a release note, delete it...?19:03
stevemardolphm: its not19:04
mfischdolphm: does osprofiler have a perf impact in the paste filter?19:04
dolphmmfisch: last i looked, "theoretically no," because it's disabled by default even though it's in the pipeline19:05
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dolphmbut if it were me, i wouldn't deploy it if i wasn't going to use it19:05
mfischwe heavily customize the pipeline already so I may consider removing19:05
dolphmmfisch: ++19:06
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mfischI'm keeping cors the Banquet Filter19:06
dolphmmfisch: how do you feel about the whole "paste is not configuration" fear mongering? i mean "perspective"19:06
mfischnot sure I've heard that phrase19:06
mfischwhats the ref?19:06
stevemarmfisch: commented on your patch19:06
mfischk19:07
stevemardolphm: the paste should be in .conf and not in a separate file?19:07
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dolphmmfisch: this is old, but this sentiment lives on http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2012-July/000277.html19:08
mfischI could see it belonging in the config file but I dont think there's a strong argument to change it now19:08
dolphmstevemar: it's fine for it to be a separate file, but it's advantageous for deployers to be able to configure the pipeline, and counter-productive for upstream to prevent them from doing so19:09
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mfischwe need to be able to change it19:09
mfischyeah I'm pretty firm on that one19:09
dolphmmfisch: i agree.19:10
stevemarinteresting19:10
mfischwe have audit stuff, tenant profiling stuff and some security stuff in ours19:11
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openstackgerritMatt Fischer proposed openstack/keystone: cache_on_issue default to true  https://review.openstack.org/38333319:15
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mfischI didnt know you could do formatting in reno thats cool19:15
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stevemarmfisch: you sure can19:16
stevemarmfisch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/375914/6/releasenotes/notes/removed-as-of-ocata-436bb4b839e74494.yaml19:16
stevemarmfisch: i'll enforce release notes this cycle19:17
mfischwe've enforced them in puppet since M I think19:17
mfischthey work well19:17
stevemarmfisch: we do them for features and other stuff, not well enough19:18
morganunless you need direct access to the keystone app via your filters you could do it without paste.19:18
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morgani would love if paste was killed and removed19:18
stevemarmfisch: you can include hyperlinks too ;)19:18
morganif you're just doing introspection on requests and responses (headers etc), there are better ways that wedging your code into the running wsgi app19:19
morgansuch as modifying the paste pipeline19:19
morganbut i expect i've lost that argument long ago19:20
dstanekmorgan: ++ there are already middlewares that do that19:20
morgandstanek: exactly19:20
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openstackgerritRichard Avelar proposed openstack/keystone: Improve check_token validation performance  https://review.openstack.org/38210719:55
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bknudsonI think cors and sizelimit should be handled by uwsgi / apache / the wsgi container.20:07
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/keystone: Remove password history validation from admin password resets  https://review.openstack.org/37903020:41
superklaushello. I insatlled devstack and can run an instance of cirrOS. when trying to use neutron cli, it says "An auth plugin is required to fetch a token"20:42
superklauslike, if I do neutron net-list, it says "An auth plugin is required to fetch a token"20:43
superklaus any help would be appreciated20:43
openstackgerritSteve Martinelli proposed openstack/keystone: cache_on_issue default to true  https://review.openstack.org/38333320:44
dstaneksuperklaus: did you source openrc?20:46
superklausthat fixed it. thank you20:47
openstackgerritRon De Rose proposed openstack/keystone: Remove driver version_specifiers from tests  https://review.openstack.org/38346020:59
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openstackgerritRon De Rose proposed openstack/keystone: Remove driver version_specifiers from tests  https://review.openstack.org/38346021:18
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openstackgerritRon De Rose proposed openstack/keystone: Remove driver version specifiers from tests  https://review.openstack.org/38346021:22
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lbragstadbreton the osic performance bot is up and fixed21:29
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lbragstadbreton I had to rework some of the playbook due to osa changes for newton21:30
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lbragstadrodrigods ping21:32
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lbragstadrodrigods finally getting around to https://github.com/lbragstad/keystone-performance/pull/13/files21:35
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lbragstadrodrigods does ab -e not require a filename as an argument?21:35
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openstackgerritRichard Avelar proposed openstack/keystone: Improve check_token validation performance  https://review.openstack.org/38210721:45
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bretonlbragstad: thank you. Can i check already merged patches?22:10
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/keystone: Updated from global requirements  https://review.openstack.org/38311522:13
bknudsonbreton: post a revert and check experimental it.22:17
rodrigodslbragstad, hmm think i get from a tutorial somewhere22:17
rodrigodsworked for me, though22:17
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openstackgerritJamie Lennox proposed openstack/keystoneauth: Allow specifying client and service info to user_agent  https://review.openstack.org/35763322:54
ianwjamielennox: around?  question on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/366922/22:55
jamielennoxianw: yea22:55
ianwthe issue seems to be that OS_IDENTITY_API_VERSION is set to "2" on devstack subnodes, but i think that is probably unintentional22:55
ianwsubnodes that don't have keystone installed22:55
jamielennoxianw: i'd really like to prevent that one22:57
jamielennoxthere's nothing that should be running in devstack without v3 api22:57
ianwthat's what i thought :)22:57
jamielennoxwe are actively trying to get gate jobs going that disable v222:57
ianwit seems like that we just need to move the definition out.  actually, i'm having deja-vu, there might be a change to do that22:58
jamielennoxianw: i left a -1, i've never run the multinode case so i don't know how to test anything there but yea, i would look to move the OS_IDENTITY_API_VERSION=3 somewhere basic23:00
jamielennoxthis is all part of the v3 everywhere that i haven't pushed recently23:00
ianwI think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/350801/2 will fix it23:00
jamielennoxianw: yea, that makes sense to me23:02
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openstackgerritRichard Avelar proposed openstack/keystone: Improve check_token validation performance  https://review.openstack.org/38210723:10
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jamielennoxstevemar: can you escalate https://review.openstack.org/#/c/357633/ to be included in next release23:18
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jamielennoxstevemar: also, any reason for just +1 on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/336972/ ?23:23
jamielennoxi understand you don't care either way but you're like the only person that reviews that sort of stuff23:24
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openstackgerritGage Hugo proposed openstack/keystone: Doctor check for LDAP domain specific configs  https://review.openstack.org/36143523:42
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stevemarjamielennox: lol23:53
stevemarjamielennox: why did i only +1 that?!23:54
stevemarayoung: can you kick https://review.openstack.org/#/c/336972/ through?23:54
stevemarjamielennox: the ksa one i was going to look at today23:54
jamielennoxstevemar: awesome, yea, it's a little bit to wrap your head around but sean and i discussed it a lot at the midcycle23:55
jamielennoxwas supposed to have gone in last cycle but i kind of forgot about it23:55
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