Friday, 2018-03-16

« Thursday, 2018-03-15 Index Saturday, 2018-03-17 »
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/glance master: Clean the web-download tests  https://review.openstack.org/55127500:32
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openstackgerritBrian Rosmaita proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Split glanceclient functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/55364100:39
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openstackgerritBrian Rosmaita proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Split glanceclient functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/55364100:44
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openstackgerritPranali Deore proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Add support for web-download import method  https://review.openstack.org/55193506:41
openstackgerritPranali Deore proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Add support for web-download import method  https://review.openstack.org/55193506:44
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openstackgerritNguyen Hai proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Update new documentation PTI jobs  https://review.openstack.org/53043406:46
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abhishekkjokke_, hi, please have a look at web-download support client patch10:44
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abhishekkjokke_, also I might be late to join today's discussion (need to address another one)10:45
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Roamer`hi guys, I have a question about the process for a new image driver, namely https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137360/ - the StorPool Cinder driver is now in Queens, the Nova volume attachment driver is also in; does Flavio Percoco's position of "write the driver, maintain it externally for one cycle, then we'll talk" still hold?11:41
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jokke_Roamer`: i'd like to lean towards no, but need to talk with the rest of the team12:09
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jokke_Roamer`: I think it would be good if you proposed topic to next weeks glance meeting about what you have in mind12:10
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Roamer`jokke_, ok, will do, thanks!12:44
Roamer`jokke_, basically what I have in mind is to un-abandon that spec and start working on the StorPool Glance driver (I'll probably write the driver anyway, even if we have to maintain it externally)12:44
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openstackgerritBrian Rosmaita proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Split glanceclient functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/55364114:53
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openstackgerritBrian Rosmaita proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Split glanceclient functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/55364115:35
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rosmaitajokke_ : around?16:31
jokke_yeah16:32
rosmaitagood afternoon16:32
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jokke_Afternoon16:33
rosmaitaabhishek indicated that he might be interested in this discussion, but it's 10 pm where he is16:33
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jokke_yup ... I'd be not so happily surprised if he showed up :P16:34
rosmaitajokke_: btw, you need to patch this file with your name & nick: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/irc-meetings/tree/meetings/glance-team-meeting.yaml16:36
abhishekk_jokke_, rosmaita, sorry for late16:36
rosmaitaabhishekk_ not at all, thanks for attending16:37
abhishekk_Is discussion over?16:37
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rosmaitaok, so the spec for OSSN-0075 is here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/468179/16:38
rosmaitaabhishekk_ nope, just starting!16:38
rosmaitai will summarize the spec quickly, jokke_ can keep me honest16:38
rosmaitathe problem is that when glance-manage db purge is run, soft-deleted rows disappear from the images (and all other) table16:39
rosmaitasince those rows are used in a uniqueness check for image_id16:39
rosmaitaafter a purge happens, an image_id is available again, and the api lets any user specify an image_id at the time of image creation16:40
rosmaitaso, it's possible for an image_id to be reused16:40
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jokke_I think after, what about a year of going back and forth with this, we're aware of the situation :P16:41
rosmaitaok16:41
rosmaitathe proposal is to keep "important" rows in the images table and never let them be hard-deleted16:42
rosmaitawhat makes it "important" is that the visibility of the image was either public or community at some point16:42
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jokke_I'm not sure if it's really a matter of importance but rather matter of exploitability16:43
abhishekk_it will grow over the time16:43
rosmaitaright, but the visibility thing is supposed to keep the growth factor low16:43
rosmaitaexcept, of course, someone reading this discussion could just create a bunch of image records and make them community16:44
rosmaitayou can do that with queued status images16:44
rosmaitaso there's a follow up idea16:44
rosmaitato address OSSN-0076, which is that it's possible to cause a DB slowdown by flooding glance with image-create calls16:45
jokke_Thus the part of hard deleting the ones never got active is important part of the whole solution16:45
rosmaitai'm coming to that16:45
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rosmaitawell, let's skip ahead16:45
rosmaitaactually not16:45
rosmaitathe thing is, even if glance had a quota on number of images per user16:46
jokke_I thought you had conserns you wanted to brainstorm about. All of the stuff we've spent half of the meeting so far is well documented16:46
rosmaitaok, here it is then16:46
rosmaitayour idea will not work16:46
rosmaitayou can create a bunch of active images that are community16:46
rosmaitavery quickly16:46
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rosmaitaby uploading a 1 byte image16:46
rosmaitaso the hard deletion will never kick in16:47
rosmaitaso there's no way to constrain the number of rows being added to the images table16:47
jokke__if_ your user is allowed to create community images _and_ your not implementing rate limiting and monitoring your user behaviour16:48
rosmaitaeven with rate limitiing16:48
rosmaitayou can do a slow attack that will eventually fill the table16:48
rosmaitahard to distinguish that from legitimate behavior16:49
jokke_like said _if_ your users are allowed to make community images and you're not monitoring your usage patterns16:49
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rosmaitahow is usage pattern monitoring going to help?16:50
jokke_there is no legitimate use case for tons of images that gets created and deleted with minimal amount of data16:50
rosmaitasure, but use a cirros-sized image16:50
rosmaitalegitimate, small, uploads quickly16:50
jokke_if you create continuously images, upload 1b data and delete it right away, there is only one reason to do so16:50
jokke_:s/1b/what ever is considered as small in perspective of targetting the system/16:52
rosmaitayeah, but think about the cirros image, it's a functional small size16:54
jokke_so say even if you implemented the introspection plugin and made sure the data uploaded was bootable valid image, if user creates 100 images that alive short time in matter of days and all of them has same checksum, again that is by no means legitimate use case16:54
rosmaitaok, so then you'd delete all of that guy's images ... so there doesn't seem to be a reason to implement the hard-delete16:55
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rosmaitabecause it doesn't seem like it is actually going to help anything16:55
rosmaitathe only mitigation is external to glance16:55
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jokke_so lets finally archive this whole thing and not touch nor discuss it again? As if we plug this, the same user just moves to Nova or Neutron and starts spamming VMs or networks16:57
jokke_After all we do log every single api call to glance ... if you do ratelimiting and you don't recognize that someone is poking the API constantly against that limit before it's too late, I really don't know what to say17:00
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rosmaitaok, so ossn-0076 already says use rate limiting, so that's cool17:01
rosmaitawhat do we do about ossn-0075?17:02
jokke_and we already say that even the purge tool was implemented don't use it, so that's ocol as well17:02
rosmaitayeahhhhhh .... but ....17:03
rosmaitasomehow i feel like we should do something17:03
jokke_so we can either harden it and improve the situation or we can finally stop this17:03
jokke_we agreed to do something, only two weeks ago17:03
rosmaitayeah, but it turns out that what we agreed to is equivalent to never removing anything from the images table17:04
rosmaitaso maybe we just fix the purge tool17:04
rosmaitaso it purges from everything except images table17:04
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rosmaitaand leave it up to the operator to figure out how to purge the images table?17:05
jokke_so finding a configuration and way to target it does not equal never anything.17:05
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jokke_as said if you don't recognize that kind of usage pattern before you have billion rows in your database, maybe you should evaluate your security teams/audits effectiveness17:06
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jokke_and 100s or even 1000s such cases makes absolutely no difference on performance side17:06
jokke_relational databases are designed to handle that kind of loads17:07
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rosmaitaok, then it sounds like the fix is just on the glance-manage db purge side ... never purge the images table17:07
rosmaitai don't see the point of doing the visibility check since it's so easily defeated17:08
jokke_and we have already tooling in place to restrict creating community/public images for the deployments where most of your customers would try something stupid like that17:08
openstackgerritMonty Taylor proposed openstack/python-glanceclient master: Split glanceclient functional tests  https://review.openstack.org/55364117:08
rosmaitayeah17:08
rosmaitaok, i will update the spec for hopefully the final time17:09
rosmaitaand not file a spec for 007617:09
rosmaitathanks for the brainstorming!17:09
jokke_I still think it would make sense not to save the images never got active17:09
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jokke_just because there is no reason what so ever to do that17:10
abhishekk_agree17:10
rosmaitayeah, but if all that monitoring is happening, we're talking a very small percentage of images, shouldn't matter17:11
jokke_and that's regardless if it's malicious user or just someones automation breaking and failing to finish creating all those images17:11
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rosmaitayeah, but the db purge takes care of that17:14
rosmaitai don't see any reason to do it "live" if your analysis of the power of modern relational databases is correct17:15
jokke_but we're already saying don't use the purge17:16
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rosmaitai thought we said we'll modify the purge to hit all tables except images17:17
rosmaitaimages table needs to be cleared out by hand17:17
jokke_and it's even less likely that anyone ever have to if we do not intentinally dump stuff in to the datbase that has no value17:17
jokke_or did it turn out to be too complex beast to tackle?17:18
rosmaitawe still have the situation where 1 image can have 255 rows in properties, members, and tags17:18
rosmaitawhich could be perfectly legitimate17:19
rosmaitai think we need to make it possible to clear out the non-images tables17:19
jokke_yup, I'm perfectly fine with that17:19
rosmaitacool17:19
jokke_my point is, why we would not do the hard delete if never active?17:19
rosmaitawhat i'm saying is that i don't see a reason to do the hard-delete because it is so easy to defeat it17:20
jokke_like is there any legitimate reason why we should save that data?17:20
rosmaitano, but it will eventually be purged17:20
rosmaitait's just something that could have a bug and doesn't seem to me to have a lot of payoff17:20
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jokke_that could be very true ... at least I don't have data available how much those cases actually exists17:23
rosmaitawell, i'll revise the spec, put out another email to the operators list and see what people have to say17:24
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rosmaitathat's all from me ... i think it's guinness o'clock for you ... have a good weekend!17:25
rosmaitaabhishekk_ you have a good weekend, too17:25
jokke_You too! It's also St. Paddy's day tomorrow and Bank Holiday at Mon so I'll be back at Tue17:26
abhishekk_jokke_, rosmaita have a nice weekend ahead17:26
jokke_abhishekk_: you too!17:26
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abhishekk_jokke_: I have added a comment on client patch, please have a look17:27
abhishekk_Or should we move that check explicitly in images.py instead of handling it in shell.py?17:27
jokke_abhishekk_: we need to handle it in both, because of fail early and the fact that all utilization does not come from shell17:28
jokke_it's after all python client17:28
abhishekk_jokke_: got it17:29
rosmaitabtw, i am close to having the glanceclient gates set up to test functional v1 against stable/queens and functional v2 against glance master17:29
jokke_rosmaita: oh, that's the split functional tests patch?17:29
abhishekk_I guess we will push a new patch early on Monday morning17:30
rosmaitayeah, mordred just made a quick change that will hopefully get everything working17:30
jokke_nuice17:30
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jokke_rosmaita: if you have time at some point I think 551285 would be nice to get in17:31
jokke_it's the barbica-tempest experimental job for stable branch17:31
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rosmaitaoh, ok, thought i had approved it, but that must have been in master17:32
jokke_yeah, it was17:32
rosmaitaare they going to let her remove the legacy job from project-config?17:34
rosmaitaotherwise we'll be running this job twice17:34
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rosmaitamaybe it doesnt' matter since it's experimental17:35
jokke_at least there is already +2 from Andreas on the needed by17:36
jokke_and no objections17:36
rosmaitaok, works for me17:38
jokke_and once that's in there is one more for stable/pike17:39
rosmaitawe need to beef up the glanceclient functional tests ... right now there's like 24 min of setup and 10 seconds of tests17:41
jokke_we need to optimize the setup :P17:42
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rosmaitayeah, that's kind of out of our hands :(17:42
jokke_Could we use same mechanism as what glance functionals uses and not rely on devstack?17:43
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rosmaitanot sure, we'd have to do some kind of cross-repo stuff17:44
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jokke_yeah, I guess we have better use for our time than that17:45
rosmaitai will keep that in mind whenever i get impatient :)17:46
jokke_I know the feeling :D17:47
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jokke_I guess my day is wrapped ... I might have a peak to IRC some point later, but you know how to reach me if needed17:51
rosmaitasounds good, ttyl17:51
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/python-glanceclient master: Updated from global requirements  https://review.openstack.org/55325020:04
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