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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Due to some unforseen Zuul issues the gate is under very high load and extremely unstable at the moment. This is likely to persist until PST morning | 07:01 | |
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| cmurphy | NobodyCam: stable/pike is the last version with v2 | 09:18 |
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| lbragstad | cmurphy: so another question i've thought about; is how much does limit validation matter regardless of the model? | 15:00 |
| lbragstad | like - regardless of the enforcement model, should i be able to set x to 5 on project A and 10 on project B | 15:01 |
| cmurphy | lbragstad: you mean if B is a child of A? | 15:01 |
| lbragstad | yeah | 15:01 |
| lbragstad | i guess is there a set of validation rules that are independent of the model | 15:02 |
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| * lbragstad pulls up https://review.openstack.org/#/c/441203/ | 15:03 | |
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| lbragstad | http://logs.openstack.org/03/441203/18/check/build-openstack-sphinx-docs/2d514db/html/specs/keystone/backlog/hierarchical-quota-scenarios.html is easier to read | 15:04 |
| cmurphy | lbragstad: if there is no hierarchical enforcement model, then I think there is not enough information to say whether UPDATE B SET limit = 10 is a violation or not | 15:04 |
| cmurphy | because what happens when we have project C that is a child of B | 15:05 |
| cmurphy | and we try to set its limit to 10 | 15:05 |
| cmurphy | does it fail because its parent is not high enough? | 15:05 |
| cmurphy | does it fail because its grandparent + its parent is not high enough? | 15:05 |
| cmurphy | we don't have the rules yet to make these decisioins | 15:06 |
| cmurphy | that was my comment on ps16 on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/455709/16 | 15:06 |
| lbragstad | correct me if i'm wrong, but the only one we seem to have the rules for would be a flat structure http://logs.openstack.org/03/441203/18/check/build-openstack-sphinx-docs/2d514db/html/specs/keystone/backlog/hierarchical-quota-scenarios.html#flatland | 15:07 |
| lbragstad | because it literally doesn't have anything to do with a hierarchy | 15:07 |
| cmurphy | lbragstad: yes. so i guess the question is whether we can apply a flatland model to a hierarchical project structure and just not worry about the hierarchy for the sake of limits, or do we forbid applying limits to child projects because we don't have a model to support it yet | 15:09 |
| * lbragstad leans towards the latter | 15:10 | |
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| lbragstad | if we apply any sort of model to a hierarchy, we've going to be at risk of backwards incompatible changes if we decide to change the validation of the limits in that model, yeah? | 15:11 |
| lbragstad | we're* | 15:11 |
| cmurphy | i think i agree | 15:11 |
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| lbragstad | so - next question, is that direction still useful? | 15:11 |
| lbragstad | sans hierarchies | 15:12 |
| lbragstad | as something that can be accomplished in queens, while trying to nail down an enforcement model | 15:13 |
| cmurphy | yes, it's still useful even for flat structures | 15:13 |
| lbragstad | i agree | 15:13 |
| cmurphy | because keystone can validate projects | 15:13 |
| cmurphy | whereas nova can't | 15:13 |
| lbragstad | yeah... | 15:13 |
| lbragstad | the projects consuming this should be checking the limits information for the project in question | 15:14 |
| cmurphy | nod | 15:14 |
| lbragstad | which should hopefully stay consistent regardless of the project being part of a flat structure or a hierarchy | 15:14 |
| lbragstad | i'm trying to think if services will have additional work to do and how much once the hierarchy is introduced | 15:15 |
| lbragstad | or can they implement the usage check + enforcement and just consuming a limit hierarchy once we implement it in keystone | 15:15 |
| * lbragstad is curious about sdague's take on ^ | 15:16 | |
| cmurphy | well we'll have that "what information do i need to file a ticket" question | 15:17 |
| cmurphy | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/455709/17/specs/keystone/queens/limits-api.rst@789 | 15:18 |
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| lbragstad | mmm | 15:20 |
| lbragstad | at line 806 | 15:20 |
| lbragstad | so nova would have to relay some information to the user based on the hierarchy | 15:21 |
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| lbragstad | i guess that doesn't change building out the enforcement in each service thoguh | 15:23 |
| lbragstad | which is a good thing | 15:23 |
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| sdague | lbragstad: trying to play catch up here | 15:28 |
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| sdague | lbragstad: if I understand the question correctly it is: | 15:29 |
| sdague | Will projects need to understand the hierarchical model to do quota enforcement? | 15:29 |
| sdague | And the answer as best I could work out, was "it depends on the model, but probably yes" | 15:29 |
| sdague | Which is why there was a suggestion in the spec that hierarchical models, limit changes, and quota enforcement, are implemented in a common library, and referenced symbolically, so that logic is handled outside of the project | 15:31 |
| lbragstad | sdague: ack | 15:31 |
| sdague | And, depending on the model, you might need the topology of the hierarchy. Especially on any of that "overcommit" approaches | 15:31 |
| lbragstad | ahh | 15:32 |
| lbragstad | i forgot about that one, and the overcommit approach makes it pretty clear that the service needs to know more about the hierarchy i suppose | 15:32 |
| lbragstad | sdague: the tl;dr of what we're running into with the spec is that we're not sure how much validation of limits in a hierarchy we can do | 15:33 |
| lbragstad | cc kmalloc cmurphy ^ | 15:33 |
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| lbragstad | i was thinking we could try and implement validation of project limits regardless of the project being in a hierarchy, but cmurphy raised a couple concerns there | 15:35 |
| cmurphy | without having a defined a model yet, there is no rule that even says child B can't have limit greater than parent A | 15:36 |
| sdague | validating changing the limits? | 15:36 |
| cmurphy | regardless of how unintuitive it is to think about it | 15:36 |
| cmurphy | sdague: right | 15:36 |
| sdague | cmurphy: right, for sure, you need to actually have a model and the rules for it defined | 15:36 |
| sdague | the scenarios was like a 10% beginning of that work | 15:37 |
| cmurphy | right | 15:37 |
| cmurphy | baby steps | 15:37 |
| lbragstad | so - before we can implement limits in a hierarchy, we'll need to really flesh those models out | 15:37 |
| sdague | well, I would pick one hierarchical model and do an implementation on it | 15:38 |
| sdague | even if it turns out to be one no one really will use | 15:38 |
| sdague | that will give you something to plumb the limits setting code against | 15:38 |
| lbragstad | ok - so keystone's limit validation will be dependent on that model, and service usage will be dependent on that model, right? | 15:39 |
| sdague | The Stanek model | 15:39 |
| sdague | is probably a good one to flesh out lots of things | 15:39 |
| sdague | lbragstad: right, it was envisioned that you basically set the model name for the deployment in keystone (config) and it's the source of truth for all services as well | 15:39 |
| cmurphy | sdague: you think that implementation belongs in this first spec? | 15:39 |
| sdague | because they all have to be operating under the same assumptions | 15:39 |
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| lbragstad | sdague: right - otherwise i can't imagine the confusion you'd end up with | 15:40 |
| sdague | cmurphy: I don't know. I'm torn on whether the limits in keystone API is useful enough without any hierarchy models existing | 15:40 |
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| lbragstad | i was under the assumption that the services would also have a configuration option that deployers set that specifies enforcement | 15:41 |
| sdague | but, you all know the code and architecture better, so you probably have better thoughts | 15:41 |
| cmurphy | I think it is still useful | 15:41 |
| sdague | lbragstad: it could, but if you desynchronize for any reason, everything goes crazy | 15:41 |
| cmurphy | but there's also the risk that we'll implement somethign and then realize it will have to be totally different once there's hierarchy | 15:41 |
| lbragstad | sdague: right - that's seems scary, i like you're idea better | 15:41 |
| lbragstad | s/you're/your/ | 15:41 |
| sdague | so, it honestly might make more sense to make it so that services in their process of querying keystone for limit info, get the model info as well | 15:42 |
| cmurphy | yes | 15:42 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 15:42 |
| sdague | so they can't desynchronize | 15:42 |
| lbragstad | based on whatever that is, the service does enforcement | 15:42 |
| sdague | yep | 15:42 |
| lbragstad | that'd make things a lot easier for deployers, too | 15:42 |
| cmurphy | the model definitely needs to be discoverable, otherwise we have interop problems | 15:42 |
| sdague | yep | 15:43 |
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| lbragstad | yeah | 15:43 |
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| lbragstad | so the question now become, what model do we implement first? or do we implement things for a flat structure and push a model implementation to Rocky? | 15:44 |
| lbragstad | becomes* | 15:45 |
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| cmurphy | if we stick to our spec deadline we won't be able to flesh out the hierarchy stuff in time | 15:46 |
| lbragstad | right - not without an exception | 15:46 |
| lbragstad | i think it'd be pretty easy to rework what is there to fit a flat structure | 15:46 |
| lbragstad | and target it to queens | 15:46 |
| lbragstad | the implementation would introduce registered limits and project limits for projects that don't have parents or children | 15:47 |
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| NobodyCam | cmurphy: Awesome, Perfect, Thank you :) | 15:48 |
| cmurphy | lbragstad: what happens if someone tries to define a limit on a project in a tree? | 15:48 |
| cmurphy | NobodyCam: np :) | 15:48 |
| NobodyCam | :) | 15:48 |
| lbragstad | cmurphy: validation error? | 15:48 |
| lbragstad | cmurphy: say we don't support limits in a project hierarchy yet? | 15:49 |
| cmurphy | lbragstad: so then what happens when a hierarchical model is introduced and its not invalid any more? | 15:49 |
| lbragstad | yeah... that'd be a 4XX -> 2XX | 15:50 |
| * lbragstad sigh | 15:50 | |
| cmurphy | the user would have to opt in to the new behavior somehow | 15:50 |
| kmalloc | lbragstad: 500 error! then it can be 500->200 /s | 15:51 |
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| cmurphy | lol | 15:51 |
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| lbragstad | :) | 15:52 |
| kmalloc | so... we can abuse http a little here | 15:52 |
| kmalloc | we could 501 (don't hurt me, i know it's the wrong "not implemented") | 15:52 |
| kmalloc | honestly, i think we have to hit the model at the same time =/ | 15:53 |
| kmalloc | because... keystone has no other way to handle w/o breaking API contracts | 15:53 |
| lbragstad | what if switching from model to model also breaks API contracts? | 15:53 |
| cmurphy | we kind of need like microversions-lite just for /limits :P | 15:53 |
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| kmalloc | we could do the same thing as a versionless auth (similar to microversions lite) | 15:54 |
| kmalloc | just make the user ask for the model they want. | 15:55 |
| kmalloc | pick a sane-ish default [or don't] | 15:55 |
| cmurphy | user can't choose the model | 15:55 |
| cmurphy | admin chooses the model | 15:55 |
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| cmurphy | but we can make it discoverable with like GET /limits/model | 15:55 |
| sdague | right, so I think the previous cheat was pick "flatland" as the default model | 15:55 |
| sdague | which is today's behavior | 15:56 |
| kmalloc | or.... | 15:56 |
| sdague | for everyone except cinder | 15:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack/governance master: Shift tripleo-ci from infra to tripleo https://review.openstack.org/526715 | 15:56 |
| kmalloc | hm. | 15:56 |
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| kmalloc | god this feels like such a bad API design. | 15:56 |
| lbragstad | ok - so if we implement flatland | 15:56 |
| lbragstad | then 4XX is acceptable for trying to set a limit on a project in a hierarchy | 15:57 |
| lbragstad | but if we come out with a model that allows that later | 15:57 |
| lbragstad | that's fine? | 15:57 |
| sdague | lbragstad: well flatland just means that models ignore parents | 15:57 |
| kmalloc | yeah we never 400. | 15:57 |
| kmalloc | in flat-model | 15:57 |
| lbragstad | oh... | 15:57 |
| kmalloc | any limit set is ok | 15:57 |
| sdague | you can still set it on parents, but models are only evaluated in the context of their own project | 15:57 |
| lbragstad | i misunderstood that then | 15:57 |
| sdague | lbragstad: yeh, I might have been unclear, or maybe thinking evolved | 15:58 |
| cmurphy | lbragstad: haha i was right :P | 15:58 |
| kmalloc | ok | 15:58 |
| lbragstad | :) | 15:59 |
| kmalloc | the real solution here is simple, i don't think this matters. | 15:59 |
| sdague | kmalloc: I don't think it's a bad API, it's just a hard problem, and assuming it's going to be super crisp on attempt 1 I think will mostly mean attempt 1 never happens | 15:59 |
| kmalloc | this is a fairly narrow API change based upon the model selected. the API definition should say "keystone will evaluate the limits, and will 400 if the limits are invalid, with a proper error code" | 15:59 |
| cmurphy | okay, I don't think it's an API break if we have GET /limits-model which for now will only report "flat" and we say up front that different operations will have different responses based on /GET /limits-model | 15:59 |
| kmalloc | opening us up for multiple models. | 16:00 |
| sdague | cmurphy: ++ agreed | 16:00 |
| kmalloc | define the API loosely enough in the documentation | 16:00 |
| kmalloc | this is really not bad | 16:00 |
| kmalloc | keystone will evaluate, based upon the model, and it doesn't really break interop, because we are emitting errors that make sense and the API itself doesn't change | 16:00 |
| sdague | I think the important thing is that when calls fail, their is enough error information to explain why | 16:00 |
| kmalloc | we can make the model discoverable | 16:00 |
| kmalloc | but the error needs to be clear | 16:00 |
| sdague | so the admin can consider what their next step is | 16:01 |
| kmalloc | i am 100% ok with this after thinking it thorugh and don't feel dirty for the design | 16:01 |
| cmurphy | cool | 16:01 |
| kmalloc | sdague: ++ | 16:02 |
| lbragstad | what happens if a deployment wants to switch from "flat" to "something-else" later on? | 16:02 |
| kmalloc | lbragstad: they can, old limits set will remain | 16:02 |
| lbragstad | is that a possibility? | 16:02 |
| kmalloc | we don't "fix" limits in a model change | 16:02 |
| kmalloc | don't even try to. | 16:02 |
| kmalloc | it is on the admin to say "we' | 16:02 |
| lbragstad | right - but how painful will that be? | 16:02 |
| kmalloc | re changing models and need to deal with it" | 16:02 |
| kmalloc | painful. | 16:02 |
| kmalloc | i don't want to have to assume we know what the limit usage is downstream | 16:03 |
| kmalloc | we *Cant* afaict update limits. | 16:03 |
| kmalloc | it really is an admin action and admin update. | 16:03 |
| kmalloc | it is a "going forward we adhere to the model" if you make a change. | 16:04 |
| kmalloc | because it's only invoked on "set" | 16:04 |
| cmurphy | it would only start applying when users want to update limits, if they find the tree is out of whack becasue the model changed the admin will have to go fix it | 16:04 |
| lbragstad | ko | 16:04 |
| lbragstad | ok* | 16:04 |
| kmalloc | it explicitly grandfathers any limits into the old model on the change, new limits are new model, and it might mean you're over limit / cant set limits in some cases until the tree is fixed | 16:05 |
| cmurphy | yep | 16:05 |
| kmalloc | but again, we can't claim to be smart enough to handle the downstream effects (what nova is doing) | 16:05 |
| lbragstad | yeah - i think that's the right thing to do, but it'll just mean operators really have to think about how to move from one model to the other | 16:06 |
| lbragstad | if they want to | 16:06 |
| kmalloc | good. changes on this level should require real thought not just willy-nilly changes | 16:06 |
| kmalloc | ;) | 16:06 |
| lbragstad | i just expect to have people coming to us when they do | 16:06 |
| kmalloc | we are explicitly defining the API to support multiple modes without breaking interop/contracts with minor behavior differences. | 16:07 |
| lbragstad | try and do something like this | 16:07 |
| kmalloc | documentation documentation documentation | 16:07 |
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| kmalloc | now, we should consider a bulk limit update API with this as well. | 16:07 |
| kmalloc | (future?) | 16:07 |
| sdague | agree with cmurphy / kmalloc | 16:08 |
| sdague | keystone only does validation on an update call | 16:08 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 16:08 |
| kmalloc | i think a "get me all limits" and "bulk update via json" might be very valid for assisting in model switches | 16:09 |
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| sdague | if someone decided to change their model, then presumably they also wrote themselves a batch script to go through their project tree and set a new world | 16:09 |
| lbragstad | right | 16:09 |
| sdague | kmalloc: maybe, bulk update actually makes for a harder validation problem | 16:09 |
| sdague | vs. making them make all the calls from the root down to create sanity | 16:09 |
| kmalloc | sdague: perhaps. | 16:09 |
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| kmalloc | i am happy to punt on bulk update | 16:10 |
| kmalloc | and just back burner it to see if it makes sense | 16:10 |
| sdague | yeh, future possible optimization | 16:10 |
| kmalloc | it should be something we hold onto in case we want it, even if we don't implement it right away | 16:10 |
| sdague | that would be an api change to add it, but that's fine. may never actually need it | 16:10 |
| sdague | ok, got to drop off for a bit, catch you all later | 16:11 |
| kmalloc | adding /limits/change_all_the_limits_I_know_what_im_doing is easy :) | 16:11 |
| kmalloc | sdague: cheers and thanks! | 16:11 |
| lbragstad | sdague: thanks for the time! | 16:11 |
| lbragstad | i think this cleared a lot of things up... | 16:12 |
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| cmurphy | ++ | 16:13 |
| lbragstad | i think targetting the flat model first makes sense | 16:13 |
| cmurphy | +1 | 16:13 |
| lbragstad | my concerns about the API things were addressed | 16:14 |
| lbragstad | it gives people a way to start using this without having the development burden of hammering out all the details exactly right on the first try | 16:14 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: stop linking to documentation from governance https://review.openstack.org/523195 | 22:15 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Tags are applied to deliverables, or teams https://review.openstack.org/523886 | 22:21 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Officialize election organization working group https://review.openstack.org/521062 | 22:30 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove redundant links in index.rst https://review.openstack.org/523121 | 22:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Update policy artifacts for telemetry/panko https://review.openstack.org/523452 | 22:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Mark the completion of tempest plugin split goal for cloudkitty team https://review.openstack.org/524582 | 22:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: stop linking to documentation from governance https://review.openstack.org/523195 | 22:38 |
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