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| powkref | 9 11 attacks, Did USA do it itself or it just let it happen? | 10:17 |
|---|---|---|
| powkref | Did USA administration murder 3000 American citizen in 9 11 attacks to justify starting a war against iraq? | 10:17 |
| powkref | If al-qaeda did it, why go to kill 2 million Iraqi? | 10:17 |
| powkref | http://creatvchaos.blogspot.com.eg/ | 10:17 |
| powkref | https://creatvchaos.wordpress.com/ | 10:17 |
| powkref | Some of the benefits Americans say they achieved after 9 11 attacks include: | 10:17 |
| powkref | *constant flow of oil, which price is in continuous decline. Trump said he will simply take the Iraqi oil, and when he was told that Iraqi oil belongs to iraq he said there is no iraq(after usa destroyed it ). | 10:17 |
| powkref | *Invasion of afghanstan with construction of not less than 14 american military base which give a close eye on china. | 10:17 |
| powkref | *Removal of potential threat to isreal represented in iraq which throw isreal with more than 30 rocket after American assault on iraq during 2nd gulf war. | 10:17 |
| powkref | So oil was the motive of the crime…. | 10:17 |
| powkref | Did Usa ambassador at iraq implicitly encourage Saddam Hussien to invade kwuit? | 10:17 |
| powkref | Usa used al-qaeda against soviet union. Did Usa continue to use it against others in the world, did usa use al-qaeda against moderate muslims? | 10:17 |
| powkref | Did Usa use al-qaeda against its own American citizens? not in 9 11 , which is technically impossible for al-qaeda to do it even with help from Usa administration. | 10:17 |
| powkref | Could al-qaeda personel who received few weeks of aviation lessons in Usa and most of them never did fly single engine aircraft alone, can target the towers with a big high sophisticated boeing airplane ? | 10:17 |
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| dims | SpamapS : nice write up. thanks | 11:39 |
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| SpamapS | notmorgan, mriedem: something just ocurred to me about hierarchical quotas that may call into question putting the limits into keystone... | 17:39 |
| SpamapS | The point of putting them into keystone is that there's one place to calculate the limit based on hierarchy, right? | 17:40 |
| SpamapS | But the usage calculation is _basically_ the exact same calculation, done on usage numbers instead of limits. | 17:40 |
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| SpamapS | Since the usage DB has to express the project hierarchy anyway in that case.. might as well keep the limits in that db and just do the calc yourself. | 17:41 |
| notmorgan | SpamapS: i'm not opposed to either mechanism | 17:42 |
| notmorgan | SpamapS: i can see arguments for both/either | 17:42 |
| SpamapS | I kind of want to propose a quotas microservice. | 17:42 |
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| notmorgan | i don't really have a horse in this race except if it is going into keystone i want a clear spec of what is expected | 17:42 |
| mriedem | SpamapS: i.e. https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Boson ? | 17:43 |
| SpamapS | Where you feed it usages and limits as writes, and then when you have a request for allocations you ask it for a yes/no. | 17:43 |
| SpamapS | Oh yeah, as usual, reality is ahead of me. :) | 17:43 |
| SpamapS | mriedem: is there some reservation about using Boson? | 17:44 |
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| mriedem | SpamapS: it's a dead project as far as i know | 17:45 |
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| dstanek | SpamapS: that was my main argument against storing it in keystone. | 17:47 |
| dstanek | the thought was that other systems wouldnt have to understand the hierarchy, but that's incorrect | 17:47 |
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| SpamapS | dstanek: I think you are right, and anywhere there's usage there's a hierarchy. | 17:48 |
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| dstanek | exactly | 17:49 |
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| dstanek | so if people just want a place to dump the theoretical limits then maybe keystone is fine. i just disagreed with most of the other reasons. | 17:50 |
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| SpamapS | mriedem: ACK, though doing hierarchical quotas might be a good reason to resurrect Boson, and would provide gravity for other projects to start depending on it (if they want hierarchical quota support, they have to migrate to Boson). | 18:20 |
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| SpamapS | That said, another side of me hates the cost of shipping usage data from nova -> Boson | 18:20 |
| * SpamapS will stop commenting as his plates are full | 18:21 | |
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| mriedem | SpamapS: idk, that basically restarts whatever led up to a group of people talking about this at the austin summit, | 18:22 |
| mriedem | i wasn't a part of that group | 18:22 |
| mriedem | but that all basically died on the vine too | 18:22 |
| mriedem | i believe sdague is going to start the ball on the limits in keystone spec and it can be debated there | 18:22 |
| SpamapS | Yeah, I think limits in keystone is a bad idea, dstanek is right that you need the hierarchy anyway in each service that has usage, so there's not much point in chirping at keystone. | 18:23 |
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| SpamapS | So either each project has usage and limits tables with the hierarchy expressed fully there, or Boson. | 18:23 |
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| SpamapS | And I personally would design it as a micro service.. even with the cost of shipping usage data (worth it for separation of concerns and DRY) | 18:24 |
| SpamapS | But.. again.. | 18:24 |
| * SpamapS backs away slowly | 18:24 | |
| SpamapS | y'all have fun with that | 18:24 |
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| mriedem | well part of the reason about putting limits in keystone was for DRY | 18:25 |
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| mriedem | the hierarchical limit can be calculated in keystone | 18:26 |
| SpamapS | mriedem: yeah, it sounds good, until you realize you have to walk the hierarchy for usage data too, so you end up with the same exact problems happening in usage and limit calc. | 18:26 |
| SpamapS | And if you're not careful, you have two slightly different ways of walking project hierarchy and calculating them. | 18:26 |
| mriedem | i believe the idea was to provide something external that does the calculation given some functions | 18:26 |
| mriedem | so each project can call that generically | 18:27 |
| mriedem | here is my limit and usage for resource x, tell me if i'm over quota | 18:27 |
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| SpamapS | yeah, but 'my usage for resource x' has to include usage for the entire hierarchy I live in. | 18:28 |
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| SpamapS | can't get around that really | 18:28 |
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| SpamapS | so it's going to be a lot simpler to have limits and usages in the same db, using the same hierarchy walking. | 18:30 |
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| mriedem | which i guess would be the case with boson, | 18:33 |
| mriedem | and boson has the rest api that is being talked about building into keystone | 18:33 |
| mriedem | boson's reservation concept, which is being used in nova today but we're removing, would not fit | 18:33 |
| mriedem | it's also global, like keystone (and placement) | 18:33 |
| mriedem | and placement tracks resource allocations (usages) | 18:33 |
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| dstanek | mriedem: so my understanding about the keystone component is that we'd just store a limits dict and return that back with certain API calls. no calculations, no usage. is that incorrect? | 18:39 |
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| mriedem | no usage, but i thought keystone would calculate the limit based on hierarchy | 18:42 |
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| dstanek | mriedem: even to do that you have to know about the hierachy to send the correct usage to keystone | 18:54 |
| mriedem | dstanek: nova doesn't send usage to keystone | 18:55 |
| mriedem | it gets the limit from keystone | 18:55 |
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| clarkb | clayg: re the swift functional testing + tls, once you think you have that ready to go we can test it really quick using a depends-on a change that force sets it on, then update the job to enable TLS | 18:56 |
| clarkb | clayg: just let me know when you end up ready to do that and I can either do it all or walk you through it | 18:56 |
| dstanek | mriedem: so if all keystone does is return for A -> B -> C a dict that tells the limits of each then nova will have to understant the A -> B -> C relationship | 18:56 |
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| dstanek | mriedem: it's strange because if you can give me the limits for project D we will then have to give you the limits for A, B, C and D if C and D are siblings | 18:57 |
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| clayg | clarkb: I would *love* you to walk me through it! Thanks! Still working on it though. | 18:58 |
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| mriedem | dstanek: i assumed nova is asking for the limit of a given resource on a given project | 18:58 |
| mriedem | so how what's the limit for VCPU on project D | 18:59 |
| clayg | I'll ping you after functests are fixed in Swift and I have a devstack change for the apache virtualhost config and the maxheaders thing. | 18:59 |
| mriedem | or project B in your example | 18:59 |
| clarkb | clayg: sounds good thanks | 18:59 |
| mriedem | or A, where B and C are siblings and A is the parent | 18:59 |
| dstanek | mriedem: but the requirements say that you need to evaluate the hierachy for over promising (for example) | 18:59 |
| mriedem | which requirements? | 18:59 |
| dhellmann | sdague : the patch I promised earlier to remove the classifier logic from devstack: https://review.openstack.org/439108 | 18:59 |
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| dstanek | mriedem: things like overpromising | 19:00 |
| dstanek | given: | 19:00 |
| dstanek | A -> B -> C | 19:00 |
| dstanek | -> D | 19:00 |
| clayg | clarkb: do you have anything on the internet that's tracking this issue? storyboard? bug? blueprint? | 19:00 |
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| clayg | clarkb: you don't have to dig up the link for me if you know where I should search | 19:00 |
| dstanek | you may have a quota of 10 on B, C and D | 19:00 |
| clarkb | clayg: no, I sent email about it to the list a while back (like in october maybe), but I think it mostly died there when initial interest was low | 19:01 |
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| dstanek | so any combination of C and D that equals 10 trips the limit | 19:01 |
| dstanek | and with deeper heirarchies the problem gets worse | 19:01 |
| dstanek | not to mention we have the half done reseller idea that we need to do something with | 19:02 |
| clayg | clarkb: I did find that email! and then later again there was another thread where you made reference to "base" jobs and a "growing list of other jobs" | 19:02 |
| mriedem | dstanek: i don't know anything about reseller | 19:02 |
| clayg | ... but I guess you just have all i your head? because you're like Neo? | 19:02 |
| clarkb | clayg: because I fail at writing stuff down :) | 19:02 |
| clayg | clarkb: rock on ;) | 19:02 |
| dstanek | mriedem: me either :-) but the over promising exists without it | 19:02 |
| clarkb | clayg: I'll make a note to address that | 19:03 |
| clayg | lol - like in general - I should have a thing on my todo "suck less" | 19:03 |
| dstanek | mriedem: the gist of reseller is that parts of the hierarchy may be private | 19:03 |
| mriedem | dstanek: to be clear, over promising because you promise 10 of resource x to B but if B has 3 and C has 7, then B can't get more | 19:03 |
| mriedem | *C/D whatever the siblings are | 19:04 |
| dstanek | mriedem: right | 19:04 |
| mriedem | ok | 19:04 |
| mriedem | honestly if we could come out of pike with a spec describing terms and use cases and examples, i'd consider that a mfing win :) | 19:04 |
| mriedem | SpamapS: ^ right up your alley | 19:04 |
| dstanek | mriedem: ++ totally agree. that's one thing i mentioned in the keystone meeting last week. i needed to see some usecases | 19:05 |
| mriedem | seems like the product work group would have already had that by now | 19:05 |
| mriedem | b/c i don't like doing graph traversal in my head | 19:05 |
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| dstanek | mriedem: me either. now picture keystone having to know multple graphs (one for each type, for example) and then services have to come along and duplicate that logic all over the place | 19:07 |
| mriedem | also, then i wouldn't feel like a total dumbass when talking about this in group settings | 19:07 |
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| SpamapS | Indeed, sounds like, as usual, we have charged off into the night with our swords drawn chasing whatever quota hierarchy problems we can imagine. ;) | 19:09 |
| SpamapS | mriedem: unfortunately, my time for stuff like this is pretty limited. I have to agree that product WG would be a great place to get a set of clear use cases. | 19:10 |
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| dstanek | ftr i'm not opposed to having this in keystone if it's the right architectural fit, but with out knowing the use cases or how the pieces fit together i'm skeptical | 19:11 |
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| thingee | mordred: not to point fingers, but cinder copied nova with $service_type$version https://review.openstack.org/#/c/434344/1/os_client_config/cloud_config.py | 19:12 |
| thingee | mordred: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-dev/devstack/commit/?id=806233e0ed30e59d9deb9934f831f8ffad879733 | 19:13 |
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| SpamapS | dstanek: I can't really see it fitting well in keystone anymore. | 19:16 |
| SpamapS | dstanek: as long as there's a hierarchy (with overcommit or even naive calculation), usage holders will be best served with limits expressed at the same place. | 19:17 |
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| mordred | thingee: fair :) | 19:25 |
| mordred | thingee: I'll update my accusatory and finger pointing comments :) | 19:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/governance master: Add networking-baremetal under Ironic governance https://review.openstack.org/439132 | 19:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/governance master: Add networking-baremetal under Ironic governance https://review.openstack.org/439132 | 19:57 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: move the UX team to legacy status https://review.openstack.org/437957 | 20:07 |
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| jroll | mordred: https://jimrollenhagen.com/api-user.png | 20:29 |
| clarkb | jroll: boo | 20:29 |
| jroll | lol | 20:29 |
| jroll | it was the only useful result for "giant hat maker" | 20:29 |
| jroll | s/only/first/ | 20:30 |
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| bswartz | I just know this pg debate will end with someone eventually screaming in pain when pg becomes unmaintainable downstream and then upstream resources will appear but it will be too late | 21:03 |
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| dims | bswartz : y unfortunately most likely scenario | 21:04 |
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| bswartz | it seems a better resolution would be to TALK to the downstream people and make the understand the situation today so there's a chance to fix things before it all goes pear shaped | 21:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/governance master: Add networking-baremetal under Ironic governance https://review.openstack.org/439132 | 22:12 |
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| thingee | bswartz: I don't think anybody is disagreeing with talking to downstream? | 23:10 |
| thingee | I think it's been opened all this time | 23:10 |
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| mordred | bswartz, thingee: also, ttx has asked me like a billion times to write up some of the things I ramble on about in meetings - which I think I've been avoiding because what I _really_ don't want to do in my life is be a flame war - but which may be necessary to avoid a worse flame war | 23:31 |
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